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I played a 25 Power Level game at my local Warhammer store today. My opponent played Death guard and summoned a ton of daemons starting from the first turn. The first ritual popped out a Great Unclean One (lucky rolling), who had a bell-of-making-it-easier-to-summon-things or whatever that thing is, and then proceeded to summon other things in subsequent turns. He summoned Horticulous Slimux twice (I killed him the first time, then he just came back during the next turn). By the end of the game his army reached 73 power level against my 25. Needless to say, I lost. This was my first time playing against chaos daemons and the unending tide of summoned daemons felt pretty ridiculous. Everyone else at the store was complaining about how cheesy this was, but it was apparently legal.

I would appreciate internet confirmation: is this in fact legal? And if so... WTF! I mean, I'm simply never going to agree to play this guy again using Power Level because how how broken the mechanic is (the store allows Power Level only, so in practice this means I won't play him again). But... how is it possible for such a broken mechanic to be in existence like this? It seems totally game-breaking to me. How is it possible to ever win a game against this kind of infinite-spawn chaos daemon army when using Power Level?

Unfortunately PL games don't use the matched play rules.This means, that you are playing Open format...

In matched play there are restrictions against this via needing to have "reserve points" set aside to do all your summoning. He would decide before the game how many reserve points he has and he would not be allowed to summon above that number of points worth of units. Those reserve points come right out of his overall points.

Alas, in a PL game he can just summon as much as he wants... PL games are meant to represent a more narrative or casual game... if he is spike playing his demons to take advantage of the more laid back rules, its kind of a dick move.

 Type40 wrote:
Unfortunately PL games don't use the matched play rules.This means, that you are playing Open format...

Not true. You can use PL with matched play. Which doesnt change the fact that PL is utterly ridiculous. Dont ever use it.

As p5freak implied, this isn't about PL itself, it's about whether or not you were playing Matched Play.

In Matched Play what you describe is not allowed. All summoning must be paid for using points held back at the start of the game - so you never exceed the agreed points limit using summoning.

In Open or Narrative play, there is no such limit. Basically, always play Matched Play if you want any kind of semblance of fairness in the game.

I don't understand how your store can dictate only PL being allowed for games though. This seems like a bizarre choice, and how would they know and why would they care which one the players in the store use!?

PL is, primarily, for narrative which means unlimited summoning, no rule of 3, first turn deep strike, and some other things I believe. This doesn't mean you cannot implement these things into a PL game.

One restriction I've played with when it comes to summoning or Deamon Banners is your army cannot ever go above the PL of the game. This basically restricts summoning to what has been destroyed unless the player has left over PL at the start.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
PL is, primarily, for narrative which means... no rule of 3.

The so-called 'rule of three' is a suggestion for organized events, as such it's already being used in matched play games where it's not a core rule so there's no reason it can't be used when playing Power Levels as well.

Thanks for the confirmation. I felt kind of stupefied by why this hasn't been corrected yet, but my wife came up with what I think is a plausible explanation: it's a ploy to sell more daemon models, which explicitly helps GW's business plan by acting as a gateway to play AoS with those models because they can be used in both games with no modification. This potentially improves AoS's popularity and creates a conduit for 40K Chaos players to get into it.

Still... %$#@! Lesson learned, I'll never play against Chaos again in a Power Level game.

Again, this has nothing to do with PL. You can play PL with matched play rules, which means the player who wishes to summon has to set reinforcement points aside for summoning. When those points are used up, he cant summon anymore.

Okay, I'll never play narrative PL with Chaos then.

 p5freak wrote:
Again, this has nothing to do with PL. You can play PL with matched play rules, which means the player who wishes to summon has to set reinforcement points aside for summoning. When those points are used up, he cant summon anymore.

Genuine question - how can you set aside reinforcement points if you aren't playing with points?

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Again, this has nothing to do with PL. You can play PL with matched play rules, which means the player who wishes to summon has to set reinforcement points aside for summoning. When those points are used up, he cant summon anymore.

Genuine question - how can you set aside reinforcement points if you aren't playing with points?

You could put aside reinforcement Power Levels just as easily. PL are just points at the end of the day, just less granular.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Again, this has nothing to do with PL. You can play PL with matched play rules, which means the player who wishes to summon has to set reinforcement points aside for summoning. When those points are used up, he cant summon anymore.

Genuine question - how can you set aside reinforcement points if you aren't playing with points?

By setting aside reinforcement PL

balmong7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Again, this has nothing to do with PL. You can play PL with matched play rules, which means the player who wishes to summon has to set reinforcement points aside for summoning. When those points are used up, he cant summon anymore.

Genuine question - how can you set aside reinforcement points if you aren't playing with points?

By setting aside reinforcement PL

I mean yeah, that's how you would do it. But I don't remember there being any rules for using PL for reinforcement points.

It was more a question for p5freak, regarding their stance on PL and Matched Play.

Yea it is totally unbalanced and unfair... but it is very thematic! That's why Chaos cults are so dangerous, because they can damage the fabric of realspace and unleash and unstoppable tide of demons.

 Kroem wrote:
Yea it is totally unbalanced and unfair... but it is very thematic! That's why Chaos cults are so dangerous, because they can damage the fabric of realspace and unleash and unstoppable tide of demons.

That's fine, so long as my Imperium army gets an Exterminatus strat.

 Type40 wrote:
Unfortunately PL games don't use the matched play rules.This means, that you are playing Open format...

In matched play there are restrictions against this via needing to have "reserve points" set aside to do all your summoning. He would decide before the game how many reserve points he has and he would not be allowed to summon above that number of points worth of units. Those reserve points come right out of his overall points.

Alas, in a PL game he can just summon as much as he wants... PL games are meant to represent a more narrative or casual game... if he is spike playing his demons to take advantage of the more laid back rules, its kind of a dick move.

PL is not Open play. Open play allows you to use any faction and combine group keywords.

Ergo call you nids, chaos marines whatever <faction> Death Guard you get all rulez. it's the ultimate soup format with no detachments.

Narrative uses detachments thus limits factions more.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Again, this has nothing to do with PL. You can play PL with matched play rules, which means the player who wishes to summon has to set reinforcement points aside for summoning. When those points are used up, he cant summon anymore.

Genuine question - how can you set aside reinforcement points if you aren't playing with points?

Exactly why I said you can't play matched play with PL, many matched play rules directly mention point costs XD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThatMG wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Unfortunately PL games don't use the matched play rules.This means, that you are playing Open format...

In matched play there are restrictions against this via needing to have "reserve points" set aside to do all your summoning. He would decide before the game how many reserve points he has and he would not be allowed to summon above that number of points worth of units. Those reserve points come right out of his overall points.

Alas, in a PL game he can just summon as much as he wants... PL games are meant to represent a more narrative or casual game... if he is spike playing his demons to take advantage of the more laid back rules, its kind of a dick move.

PL is not Open play. Open play allows you to use any faction and combine group keywords.

Ergo call you nids, chaos marines whatever <faction> Death Guard you get all rulez. it's the ultimate soup format with no detachments.

Narrative uses detachments thus limits factions more.

Read the BRB, Matchesd play rules are very specific.

Open play and Narrative rules do not follow Matched play rules...
PL only works in open or narrative.
As I mentioned above, Matched Play rules reference point costs specifically. Thus PL can not be used in those formats.

Both open and narrative allow for soup,,, and many other things.

open play does not ONLY mean it is for soup lists... it simply means you are not using matched play rules.
narrative play does not ONLY mean it is for single factions... it simply means you are creating a match that is more concerned with story and story based elements (i.e. 5000 pts of tyranids v.s. 3000 pts of blood angels and necrons who get to start in buinkers [story right out of the books])

either way PL is not used in matched play,,, as there are so many rules specifically about point costs... on that note, it would be relatively easy to convert the matched play rules to work with PL on your own... Simply say,, that rule about points, do the same but for PL.

@ThatMG at least thats how the BRB describes those formats,,, so if you disagree take it up with the book XD

 Stux wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
Yea it is totally unbalanced and unfair... but it is very thematic! That's why Chaos cults are so dangerous, because they can damage the fabric of realspace and unleash and unstoppable tide of demons.

That's fine, so long as my Imperium army gets an Exterminatus strat.

That sounds like an epic way to finish a game! You would need a looooot of cotton wool to model a musroom cloud that big though...

Stuff like infinit deamons and a end game exterminatus could be a lot of fun...

basically do a narrative mission with demon summoners constantly spawning deamons... if they can destroy/defeat the fortified army by turn X they win... otherwise,,, exterminatus ! I'd play that scenario XD

The inherent unfairness of unlimited summoning aside...

Consider a narrative game where a CSM summoning army fights a NuMarine army that includes a lot of snipers.

That would be fun.

I had a similar experience when 8th edition first launched. During that first big global campaign, I got paired with a player one week who was like "Oh yeah I play Tau as well". I was like sweet this will be a fun learning game for me.

Showed up for the game, the mission was a "get to the other side of the board and escape mission." I got attacker so I had to move across the board. He was like "Oh this is a narrative mission so I brought a detachment of CSM and they are going to summon demons every turn."

I conceded at the top of turn 3 when the game went from 100v100 PL to 75v135PL and he had smashed the bulk of my units with his fething melee demons. That was my third game of 8th ever.

Every game I have ever played since I have said "no unlimited summoning or we aren't playing." Some people have been upset about that and my response is always "I want to play a game where I have a chance at winning. If you want unlimited summoning then I get to bring 50% points/power on top of yours."

A lot of people are saying you can't play matched play with PL. Those people are technically correct. Luckily game store don't have RAW lawyers standing by to shout down your games in real life. So as long as you and your opponent agree to the rules you plan on using ahead ahead of time. Then you can do whatever you want.

In narrative games the whole point is to tell a cool story, collaboratively, with a bunch of cool toys owned by you and your opponent.

Think of unlimited daemon summoning as a narrative tool to make your stories more fun and interesting. Don't think of it as a "I'm going to use this rule to win all my games" tool. That's missing the point. If you have an opponent who's using that rule this way, it might be a good idea to discuss with them what style of game you're looking to play.

 slave.entity wrote:
In narrative games the whole point is to tell a cool story, collaboratively, with a bunch of cool toys owned by you and your opponent.

Think of unlimited daemon summoning as a narrative tool to make your stories more fun and interesting. Don't think of it as a "I'm going to use this rule to win all my games" tool. That's missing the point. If you have an opponent who's using that rule this way, it might be a good idea to discuss with them what style of game you're looking to play.

Exactly this. If you and your opponent are choosing not to use points as a balancing tool, then you and your opponents will need to engage in a bit more pre-game discussion about what you expect in the game.

Also re Matched Play not using PL:
The books lists a number of ways to balance games,
Points,
Number of Units,
Wounds Charactersitic per model,
Power Level, with per unit, or for the full army.

By RAW, these are all valid ways to play Matched Play.

 Blndmage wrote:
Also re Matched Play not using PL:
The books lists a number of ways to balance games,
Points,
Number of Units,
Wounds Charactersitic per model,
Power Level, with per unit, or for the full army.

By RAW, these are all valid ways to play Matched Play.

Until you start reading the matched play rules. You can't abide by them if you arn't using points...
As the matched play rules specifically and only mention point costs.

So no, RAW you can not play a format that specifically requires you to have points using a system that doesn't use points... it might have been RAI originally, but not RAW after all the matched play rule updates and etc.

Rulebook page 212:

There are several ways to choose an army for matched play games. Typically, you and your opponent will build an army to an agreed points limit, but you could instead, for example, build armies that have a set number of units. Alternatively, you could use the Wounds characteristic or the Power Rating of each unit, either setting an upper limit for each unit or a fixed total for both armies. These are just a few examples of ways you can organise an army for matched play games – you and your opponent can use any system you like, as long as you both agree.

While many rules reference points, they do so in such a way that you can sub in any of these systems.

Matched Play is more defined than other methods of play, but it's not something that's built to be a heparin, legalease, tournament ruleset.

 Type40 wrote:
Read the BRB, Matched play rules are very specific.

Open Play does not follow any limits, constraints or balance mechanisms.

You can soup any faction and get all rules for said faction. You can also "create" custom <Faction> with names that are normally restricted by limitations. Thus you can make all race stuff cross codex.

Open play is basically kids playing with toys however they want.

Narrative Play requires more work and house rules to keep on track and not devolve into OP nonsense (unless op is your intent then have at it.)

Matched is a standard however the are multiple ways to play matched.

example (rule of 3, detachment limits, PL AND Points values.) [Insert] Tailored meta (ITC/etc)

Again people act like communication is impossible with other players / groups.

ThatMG wrote:

Again people act like communication is impossible with other players / groups.

I'm fine communicating, and in fact I will definitely have this very conversation the next time I do a Power Level narrative game like the store manager requires. I guess what was surprising is that this is the kind of thing I would have expected in an open play game, not a Power Level narrative game. Power Levels are billed as a simpler way to do balancing that's "80% as good" (to quote the store manager). What I experienced in that game with balance that was 80% as good. To pretend--as Games Workshop does--that Power Levels are a sort of rough balance is a cruel joke when you can combine it with narrative play that lets you pull nonsense like unlimited daemon summoning.

I'm also fine playing unbalanced games; they can be fun if you know ahead of time that you're going to be playing the allies in the Battle of the Bulge or the Japanese at Midway. You can try to lose less badly than the situation sets you up to lose, and you feel amazing if you win. But this wasn't a game like that. It was just a random pick-up game between two people who didn't know each other beforehand. I see now that Power Level narrative games are utterly unsuited to this unless you discuss ahead of time how you want the game to go. It would probably be faster and more fun to just use real points and matched play...

ThatMG wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Read the BRB, Matched play rules are very specific.

Open Play does not follow any limits, constraints or balance mechanisms.

You can soup any faction and get all rules for said faction. You can also "create" custom <Faction> with names that are normally restricted by limitations. Thus you can make all race stuff cross codex.

Open play is basically kids playing with toys however they want.

Narrative Play requires more work and house rules to keep on track and not devolve into OP nonsense (unless op is your intent then have at it.)

Matched is a standard however the are multiple ways to play matched.

example (rule of 3, detachment limits, PL AND Points values.) [Insert] Tailored meta (ITC/etc)

Again people act like communication is impossible with other players / groups.

Your post proves you havn't fully grasped this concept

for example the rule of 3 is NOT a matched play rule.

Open play does not HAVE to follow any limitations, except the ones you decide with your opponent, for example "hey lets not mix and match armies." must be a common one

PL are not possible in matched play, that is simply the RAW.

I am not saying you shouldn't communicate with your opponent. I am also not saying that you CAN'T play with matched play similar rules in an open play game using PL. I am just telling you what the RAW is.
Matched Play, RAW, does not use PL ... is that so hard to understand ? unless someone has a new set of Matched Play rule that has every instance of "point/point cost" replace with "point/point cost or PL." When talking about RAW (rules as written) we are talking about what is written down. What you are talking about is HIWP or having a very close to matched play version of open play. There is nothing wrong with that, but by RAW that is not matched play.

While many rules reference points, they do so in such a way that you can sub in any of these systems.

Matched Play is more defined than other methods of play, but it's not something that's built to be a heparin, legalease, tournament ruleset.

Nothing in the RAW says you can "sub" in any of these systems. RAW is what is written. PL is NOT written into these rules so it is NOT RAW.
Matched play with PL instead is a house ruled format.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with doing this, in fact I encourage it if you are playing with someone who insists on PL. I am just saying it is not RAW to call that matched play.

Pointed Stick wrote:

ThatMG wrote:

Again people act like communication is impossible with other players / groups.

I see now that Power Level narrative games are utterly unsuited to this unless you discuss ahead of time how you want the game to go. It would probably be faster and more fun to just use real points and matched play...

You're totally right. Sadly most of GW's rules are simply not tight enough for balanced games to happen without some effort from the players. If you decide to start digging deeper into points and Matched Play, you will soon discover that it's also pretty much just as unbalanced as PL. It sucks, and they should fix it. But it is what it is.

I'm at a point with the guys at my store where we generally know what army lists and house rules to enforce to create fun, balanced games. Power level and points are a decent starting point but they are far from perfect. Whether or not it's worth it to put in the legwork and figure out how to fix those problems is ultimately going to be up to you and your playgroup.

FWIW, unlimited daemon summoning would definitely not fly among my friends unless the opposing side had some sort of equally overpowered ability, or maybe some sort of extremely permissive win condition.