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Some friends shared this with me. I think that it's extreme, however necessary. I've played the new IH stuff with my knights. It's not even close to fun. I killed almost nothing.

Good. If GW can't get the balance right, it falls to the events to house rule this stupidity. The Leviathan is an OP crutch that has held up a broken army almost the entire edition, and now is even more so by the new 8.5 codexes. Ban them all.

ITC rules i rekon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Good. If GW can't get the balance right, it falls to the events to house rule this stupidity. The Leviathan is an OP crutch that has held up a broken army almost the entire edition, and now is even more so by the new 8.5 codexes. Ban them all.

? The feth are you talking about

It's too extreme because it isn't broken in the first place. It's near the cost of a Knight but doesn't have the survivability of one unless you pour a terrible amount of resources into it and doesn't have the same lethality, all on top of easily being stop in combat.

Overreaction is overreaction, and whoever decided on this should feel bad about themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Good. If GW can't get the balance right, it falls to the events to house rule this stupidity. The Leviathan is an OP crutch that has held up a broken army almost the entire edition, and now is even more so by the new 8.5 codexes. Ban them all.

It was never OP to begin with. It was simply good. A 300 point model SHOULD be good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's too extreme because it isn't broken in the first place. It's near the cost of a Knight but doesn't have the survivability of one unless you pour a terrible amount of resources into it and doesn't have the same lethality, all on top of easily being stop in combat.

Overreaction is overreaction, and whoever decided on this should feel bad about themselves.

Or play a tournament system that doesn't reward killing above objectives.
Additionally should we now aso ban all knights? Flyers etc.

I guess I am just sick of seeing Levi-naughts in every single SM list I encounter. I have literally played 9 matches in the last 3 weeks, and of those nine, 4 of them had Leviathans. Which is fine. I am just being a grump about seeing the same model constantly, especially with the new 8.5 strats. I felt the same way about the Castellan.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess I am just sick of seeing Levi-naughts in every single SM list I encounter. I have literally played 9 matches in the last 3 weeks, and of those nine, 4 of them had Leviathans. Which is fine. I am just being a grump about seeing the same model constantly, especially with the new 8.5 strats. I felt the same way about the Castellan.

It's about the only dread that is actually usefull though.
Sadly.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess I am just sick of seeing Levi-naughts in every single SM list I encounter. I have literally played 9 matches in the last 3 weeks, and of those nine, 4 of them had Leviathans. Which is fine. I am just being a grump about seeing the same model constantly, especially with the new 8.5 strats. I felt the same way about the Castellan.

It's about the only dread that is actually usefull though.
Sadly.

Bingo. You basically only have Gun Platform Ven Dreads as the only good codex Dread. Anyone saying otherwise is wrong, period.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's too extreme because it isn't broken in the first place. It's near the cost of a Knight but doesn't have the survivability of one unless you pour a terrible amount of resources into it and doesn't have the same lethality, all on top of easily being stop in combat.

Overreaction is overreaction, and whoever decided on this should feel bad about themselves.

Or play a tournament system that doesn't reward killing above objectives.
Additionally should we now aso ban all knights? Flyers etc.

Indeed. Im *very* curious what this particular TOs stance on pre-nerf Castellans was.

 chimeara wrote:
Some friends shared this with me. I think that it's extreme, however necessary. I've played the new IH stuff with my knights. It's not even close to fun. I killed almost nothing.

When is forgeworld going to fix that model? It's beyond broken, straight unfun to play against.

Hit on 2+ reroll 1s, 4++ @T8 with 16 S8 AP-2 2 DMG shots.

Seriously.

 Togusa wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Some friends shared this with me. I think that it's extreme, however necessary. I've played the new IH stuff with my knights. It's not even close to fun. I killed almost nothing.

When is forgeworld going to fix that model? It's beyond broken, straight unfun to play against.

Hit on 2+ reroll 1s, 4++ @T8 with 16 S8 AP-2 2 DMG shots.

Seriously.

For 300 points. You keep skipping that part very conveniently.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Some friends shared this with me. I think that it's extreme, however necessary. I've played the new IH stuff with my knights. It's not even close to fun. I killed almost nothing.

When is forgeworld going to fix that model? It's beyond broken, straight unfun to play against.

Hit on 2+ reroll 1s, 4++ @T8 with 16 S8 AP-2 2 DMG shots.

Seriously.

For 300 points. You keep skipping that part very conveniently.

When is gw, firstly.
GW writes all rules in 8the.

Secondly, when is gw going to fix knights?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess I am just sick of seeing Levi-naughts in every single SM list I encounter. I have literally played 9 matches in the last 3 weeks, and of those nine, 4 of them had Leviathans. Which is fine. I am just being a grump about seeing the same model constantly, especially with the new 8.5 strats. I felt the same way about the Castellan.

It's about the only dread that is actually usefull though.
Sadly.

Bingo. You basically only have Gun Platform Ven Dreads as the only good codex Dread. Anyone saying otherwise is wrong, period.

It's the same for Chaos, hellbrutes Cheap but bad.
Decimator overpriced, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's too extreme because it isn't broken in the first place. It's near the cost of a Knight but doesn't have the survivability of one unless you pour a terrible amount of resources into it and doesn't have the same lethality, all on top of easily being stop in combat.

Overreaction is overreaction, and whoever decided on this should feel bad about themselves.

Or play a tournament system that doesn't reward killing above objectives.
Additionally should we now aso ban all knights? Flyers etc.

Indeed. Im *very* curious what this particular TOs stance on pre-nerf Castellans was.

They probably brought holly water and a bible out if you even dared to mention one

That's unfortunate, I want to see some player bring 3 IH leviathans expecting easy wins and then getting clowned by an eldar airwing running circles around them before getting tagged by a venom charging from behind a wall.

Leviathan is an obvious boogeyman to point fingers to because of the whole "lmao look not even a warlord titan can kill it" meme, meanwhile those 3 repulsor executioners just keep on paddling.

 Continuity wrote:
That's unfortunate, I want to see some player bring 3 IH leviathans expecting easy wins and then getting clowned by an eldar airwing running circles around them before getting tagged by a venom charging from behind a wall.

Leviathan is an obvious boogeyman to point fingers to because of the whole "lmao look not even a warlord titan can kill it" meme, meanwhile those 3 repulsor executioners just keep on paddling.

I watched a batrep from glasshammer IH vs an 8 plane Eldar list. On T3 Eldar only had 1 plane. It was brutal. That same Eldar list went 5-0 at LGT fwiw.

A ban on one thing in a specific context is fine, particularly if it's a temporary thing, though I'd have probably just said "X/Y/Z ability won't apply to A/B/C unit" or the like instead and still allowed people to otherwise run the unit.

I don't like big sweeping or generalized bans, but I have a hard time finding outrageous fault here.

I havent delved super deep into the IH supplement, can someone detail exactly what abilities are at play here and generally what the total cost of supporting such a unit is? If the Leviathan basically can get all those abiliies through passive faction bonuses and stratagems, thats excessive, if it requires 400pts of supporting units, its not quite as much of an issue.

It's a 1cp strat that makes your opponent halve damage to a dreadnought unit that phase. Stacked with the Iron Stone relic that reduces damage to nearby vehicles by 1. Stacked with Ferios 5++ bubble and ability to heal 6 wounds on vehicles. Then the chapter tactic that gives the whole army 6+++. Then Psychic power that gives it +1 to hit.

It requires little to no support and is easy to slot in since it doesn't take a detachment like a knight. Fairly autonomous much cheaper than S knight at 303 and more durable. Those are just some reasons I use leviathans more than knights. Banning might be too harsh response this early but I can see some justification. Without knowing more about that local environment hard to say how impactful the decision really is.

 chimeara wrote:
It's a 1cp strat that makes your opponent halve damage to a dreadnought unit that phase. Stacked with the Iron Stone relic that reduces damage to nearby vehicles by 1. Stacked with Ferios 5++ bubble and ability to heal 6 wounds on vehicles. Then the chapter tactic that gives the whole army 6+++. Then Psychic power that gives it +1 to hit.

There's probably more you can add too.

 Vaktathi wrote:
A ban on one thing in a specific context is fine, particularly if it's a temporary thing, though I'd have probably just said "X/Y/Z ability won't apply to A/B/C unit" or the like instead and still allowed people to otherwise run the unit.

I don't like big sweeping or generalized bans, but I have a hard time finding outrageous fault here.

I havent delved super deep into the IH supplement, can someone detail exactly what abilities are at play here and generally what the total cost of supporting such a unit is? If the Leviathan basically can get all those abiliies through passive faction bonuses and stratagems, thats excessive, if it requires 400pts of supporting units, its not quite as much of an issue.

as other have said, the only "tax" you have to take is the iron father, a psyker and a relic.

Thats why people are saying leviathans are broken

It sounds like you need to keep those 2 HQs alive and right behind the leviathan while pumping CPs into it to keep it that tough. Right?

Because if so I don't see it being powerfully different than many "unstoppable "combos that I've seen before.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I guess I am just sick of seeing Levi-naughts in every single SM list I encounter. I have literally played 9 matches in the last 3 weeks, and of those nine, 4 of them had Leviathans. Which is fine. I am just being a grump about seeing the same model constantly, especially with the new 8.5 strats. I felt the same way about the Castellan.

It's about the only dread that is actually usefull though.
Sadly.

No it isn't. Not even a little. Every single dreadnaught is useful right now. They might not be top tier, but they all put in work.

Even the redemptor has potential to shred people in ironhands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A ban on one thing in a specific context is fine, particularly if it's a temporary thing, though I'd have probably just said "X/Y/Z ability won't apply to A/B/C unit" or the like instead and still allowed people to otherwise run the unit.

I don't like big sweeping or generalized bans, but I have a hard time finding outrageous fault here.

I havent delved super deep into the IH supplement, can someone detail exactly what abilities are at play here and generally what the total cost of supporting such a unit is? If the Leviathan basically can get all those abiliies through passive faction bonuses and stratagems, thats excessive, if it requires 400pts of supporting units, its not quite as much of an issue.

as other have said, the only "tax" you have to take is the iron father, a psyker and a relic.

Thats why people are saying leviathans are broken

You don't really need the psyker either. +1 to hit on BS 2 isn' super important.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chimeara wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
That's unfortunate, I want to see some player bring 3 IH leviathans expecting easy wins and then getting clowned by an eldar airwing running circles around them before getting tagged by a venom charging from behind a wall.

Leviathan is an obvious boogeyman to point fingers to because of the whole "lmao look not even a warlord titan can kill it" meme, meanwhile those 3 repulsor executioners just keep on paddling.

I watched a batrep from glasshammer IH vs an 8 plane Eldar list. On T3 Eldar only had 1 plane. It was brutal. That same Eldar list went 5-0 at LGT fwiw.

Yeah, the plane thing isn't that big of a deal considering the super leviathan hits on 4s rerolling even at -3.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A ban on one thing in a specific context is fine, particularly if it's a temporary thing, though I'd have probably just said "X/Y/Z ability won't apply to A/B/C unit" or the like instead and still allowed people to otherwise run the unit.

I don't like big sweeping or generalized bans, but I have a hard time finding outrageous fault here.

I havent delved super deep into the IH supplement, can someone detail exactly what abilities are at play here and generally what the total cost of supporting such a unit is? If the Leviathan basically can get all those abiliies through passive faction bonuses and stratagems, thats excessive, if it requires 400pts of supporting units, its not quite as much of an issue.

as other have said, the only "tax" you have to take is the iron father, a psyker and a relic.

Thats why people are saying leviathans are broken

Two Levis, FF, and Psyker would be north of 800 points. Are two Levis more damaging than a Castellan, which also basically never dies unless titans / haywire / mortal wounds get in its face?

No it isn't. Not even a little. Every single dreadnaught is useful right now. They might not be top tier, but they all put in work.

Even the redemptor has potential to shred people In ironhands.

GW printed marines in all rainbow Couleur.
And on the chaos side it is the go to dread

So, no one raised a stink when the Callidus tank got straight up banned at a tournament, but THIS is too far?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, no one raised a stink when the Callidus tank got straight up banned at a tournament, but THIS is too far?

Because half the playerbase now has ultrablooddarkravenwolfiron hands leviathans they want to troll with.

Are two Levis more damaging than a Castellan, which also basically never dies unless titans / haywire / mortal wounds get in its face?

Lol what? Castellans are easy to kill. Focused fire from AP1 or AP2 weapons with 2D or D3D weapons dumpsters them fast, as does melee. Most armies have very effective ways of dealing with castellans quickly.

Anytime a tournament starts house-ruling, its a sign of decline. No player is going to want to manage/list adjust for 5 different sets of house rules all developed by people whose goal was to nerf everything but they and their friend's faction. Its why I didn't get into this hobby until 8th ed dropped:

*Approaches FLGS desk during 5th-7th: How can I play in the tournament?

*Employee Thunks down a 20 page document. This is the official list of everything that is banned, restricted, etc. If you want to play squats, there's another packet I can give you.

During 8th ed: How can I play in the tournament?

*Employee: This is one page summary of the ITC format. Its the same used by every store in 20 miles.

*Me, looking over the list: There's no ban section...

*Employee: If you bring a titan we'll rough you up in the parking lot

*Me: Fair enough

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
Some friends shared this with me. I think that it's extreme, however necessary. I've played the new IH stuff with my knights. It's not even close to fun. I killed almost nothing.

When is forgeworld going to fix that model? It's beyond broken, straight unfun to play against.

Hit on 2+ reroll 1s, 4++ @T8 with 16 S8 AP-2 2 DMG shots.

Seriously.

For 300 points. You keep skipping that part very conveniently.

Why does that matter? 300 points is stupidly cheap.

I'm seeing the same lists over and over at the local stores.

Forge Father Check
Captain Check
Leiutenant Check
3 Levithans Check
20 Intercessors Check
2 Thunderfire Cannons Check

It's boring, overpowered and cheesy as hell. Meanwhile, ONCE AGAIN MY CHAOS CODEX WAS GOOD FOR ALL OF A MONTH BEFORE THEY NUTTED OBLITERATORS.

And now we're back to being a trash-tier army. Speshul Maahreens must be the best!

This is why I left the game.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Anytime a tournament starts house-ruling, its a sign of decline. No player is going to want to manage/list adjust for 5 different sets of house rules all developed by people whose goal was to nerf everything but they and their friend's faction. Its why I didn't get into this hobby until 8th ed dropped:

*Approaches FLGS desk during 5th-7th: How can I play in the tournament?

*Employee Thunks down a 20 page document. This is the official list of everything that is banned, restricted, etc. If you want to play squats, there's another packet I can give you.

During 8th ed: How can I play in the tournament?

*Employee: This is one page summary of the ITC format. Its the same used by every store in 20 miles.

*Me, looking over the list: There's no ban section...

*Employee: If you bring a titan we'll rough you up in the parking lot

*Me: Fair enough

Meh, a flat forgeworld ban isn't that uncommon. Sadly, while I like forgeworld, I think banning them from comp play altogether might be needed.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Anytime a tournament starts house-ruling, its a sign of decline. No player is going to want to manage/list adjust for 5 different sets of house rules all developed by people whose goal was to nerf everything but they and their friend's faction. Its why I didn't get into this hobby until 8th ed dropped:

*Approaches FLGS desk during 5th-7th: How can I play in the tournament?

*Employee Thunks down a 20 page document. This is the official list of everything that is banned, restricted, etc. If you want to play squats, there's another packet I can give you.

During 8th ed: How can I play in the tournament?

*Employee: This is one page summary of the ITC format. Its the same used by every store in 20 miles.

*Me, looking over the list: There's no ban section...

*Employee: If you bring a titan we'll rough you up in the parking lot

*Me: Fair enough

ITC is terrible. I don't get the appeal.