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So, I have a few of quick questions:

1) Are Sanguinius and Angron polar opposites of one another or counterparts? Both in terms of sibling rivalry (e.x. Dorn vs. Perturabo, Khan vs. Mortarion, Russ vs. Magnus, etc.) and tactics.

2) Both are called "Angels", Sanguinius being called the "Great Angel" and Angron being called the "Red Angel". Is this a reference to the angels Michael and Lucifer/Satan?

3) Are there any details in the Horus Heresy series with what are they like towards one another?

4) Who would win in a fight? Both would be in their prime, to which I am assuming Angron would be a Daemon Prince of Khorne.

Nah, I wouldn't say they're polar opposites. They never really interacted that much AFAIK, and Angron more or less never had any particular rivalry with the other Primarchs since he didn't give a rat's ass about most of them. Angron's opposite would likely be Vulkan tbh, and would actually be very similar to Vulkan if he wasn't damaged by the Nails since Angron was shown to have emphatic powers to take away other's people's pain during his time on Nuceria.

Sanguinius can be seen as a Michael equivalent (i personally see it as more like Gabriel), but the Lucifer equivalent is definitely Horus and not Angron. Lucifer was the head Archangel that fell and the one responsible for a 3rd of the angels falling with him, similar to how Horus as Warmaster brought half of the legions with him into Heresy. Angron had no such sway outside of his own legion.

I don't really remember any interactions between the 2, at least in the main books besides Angron barking challenges at Sanguinius during the Siege of Terra.

I feel like Sanguinius would come out on top if Angron wasn't in DP mode, since he would have the advantage of flight over him, alongside precognition. If we're including DP mode, I'd give it to Angron. Very few primarchs could match up to him one on one.

They have similarities and differences.

Both have an overwhelming bezerker rage in them that they hate, but Sanguinius tries to deny and control it (there's a story featuring Amit the Flesh Tearer versus Raldoron of the Sanguinary Guard along these lines) whilst Angron just lets it go.

The 'red angel' thing was pretty much sarcastic and Angron is noted in betrayer to hate the term.

Angron would supposedly win - that was the 'destiny' verdict, anyway, Angron was supposed to kill Sanguinius so he never got the chance to open a weakness in Horus' armour, but for whatever reason (wait for the relevant Solar War novel) they never actually fought during the Siege.

From Betrayer, Lorgar to the Warmaster;
"There are only two among us who would stand in defiance of the Angel’s wrath, Horus. Only two who would see him slain, once he fights with nothing left to lose. You are one. Angron is the other."

despite people saying it was Horus, Sanguinius was in many ways the best of the Primarchs

Fluff bit: In The Emperor's Gift it takes ~108 Grey Knight Terminators to encircle and stop Demon Primarch Angron and his Bloodthirster lieutenants in the First War for Armageddon, with only 6-12 GK survivors. I don't think any Primarch could realistically hold on as long as Angron did in that situation...

There was all sorts of minor daemons at Armaggedon there as well.
Now Angrons all encompassing rage is a little out side the box.
With out the nails.
So he had a soothing aura. Lorgar.
He was loyal as f. Dorn.
With the nails rage. Sangy.
Without the nails. Could be Sangys charisma.
Imagine that. Un nailed Angron, being the war master, instead of Horus

BrianDavion wrote:
despite people saying it was Horus, Sanguinius was in many ways the best of the Primarchs

Isn't that a large part of the point of the Heresy novels? That Sanguinius is (ironically enough) the best of the Primarchs and Horus got the job because he was the favourite not the best.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
despite people saying it was Horus, Sanguinius was in many ways the best of the Primarchs

Isn't that a large part of the point of the Heresy novels? That Sanguinius is (ironically enough) the best of the Primarchs and Horus got the job because he was the favourite not the best.

Wasn't Horus also the first primarch rediscovered? That probably has to factor in his being favored too.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
despite people saying it was Horus, Sanguinius was in many ways the best of the Primarchs

Isn't that a large part of the point of the Heresy novels? That Sanguinius is (ironically enough) the best of the Primarchs and Horus got the job because he was the favourite not the best.

Wasn't Horus also the first primarch rediscovered? That probably has to factor in his being favored too.

Yes he was. IIRC he and Horus had done a fair bit of warring together before they started finding the rest like Russ.

Both Sanguinius and Angron had the same propensity to fall into blood rage and to khorne.

Sanguinius has a flaw put in from his father's genetic tampering (accidentally?). He overcame the flaw and got passed it.
Angron had no such flaw from birth, but that was placed in him with the butcher's nails.

Sangy was also called a mutant by some of the population.
So you can see why the emp went with Horus.
The emp did the same thing at Nikea. He went with the popular opinion.

Considering how many people loved Sanguinius it might have been better to put Sanguinius in charge and put people who complained in the bad part of a Space Hulk.

pm713 wrote:
Considering how many people loved Sanguinius it might have been better to put Sanguinius in charge and put people who complained in the bad part of a Space Hulk.

People also loved Horus. He was popular successful and extremely charismatic. He had a knack for getting people to go along with him. This ability to build concensus was one of his strongest credentials for the role of Warmaster and one of the reasons why Lion El Johnson was never really in contention for the role (despite his obvious tactical abilities). Of course that same charisma made him the perfect target for Chaos since turning him would provide a way to turn many of the other Primarchs.

How a Sanguinian Heresy might have played out is an interesting idea. You could almost swap the BAs and Sons of Horus in the Heresy without changing too much else. There may have been a few Primarchs who would have ended up on opposite sides if Warmaster Sanguinius had led the Heresy but I suspect many would have trod the same path. Mortarion might have actually wound up on the Loyalist side since suppression of Psykers was a big deal for him whereas Sanguinius was in the pro-Librarius camp. Possibly Sanguinius would have been able to persuade the Khan to side with him where Horus failed. Most of the others would have stayed as they were I suspect.

I don't think A Sanguinian heresy would have happened. if Sanguinus fell it would have been straight to Khorne and it would have been a bloody disorginzed rush, not planned carefully.

As for charisma being why Horus was made warmaster. really that was the MOST important trait. You needed to be a good politican at that level moreso then a good general. And Horus was a amazing politican, he was well liked. and his only feud occured after he was made warmaster (with corax)

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't think A Sanguinian heresy would have happened. if Sanguinus fell it would have been straight to Khorne and it would have been a bloody disorginzed rush, not planned carefully.

Perhaps, perhaps not. If Sanguinius had been made Warmaster, he would have been targetted in the same way Horus was. The Chaos Gods didn't just want Horus himself, he was the key to turning many of his brothers too. That is why Lorgar invested so much time and effort through Erebus to turn him. Had Sangy been in Horus' boots, Chaos would still have wanted the same thing, a route to the rest of his brothers. If Horus had turned alone, he would have been crushed at Istvaan.

The Chaos Gods would not have gone to the effort of turning Sanguinius only for him to go on a solo beserker charge. They would have wanted the same deal they got with Horus and would likely have tried to engineer the situation to achieve the same end. Remember that Horus' pride was the key to his downfall. Sanguinius' rage might have been the key to his but that would not have been the whole story by a long shot if he had been Warmaster.

Sanguinius would never have fallen to Chaos. Even the most powerful daemons of the Warp were unable to tempt him. He was the best, if the most tragic, of all the Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In terms of Angron and Sanguinius, yes their legions were similar in terms of being heavily assault focused and renowned for their ferocity.

Personally, though, the Primarchs were very different to each other. While Angron led the World Eaters in bloody slaughter, Sanguinius tamed and cultivated the Blood Angels to become more than their base instincts.

Honestly I think if you want to have a more interesting Heresy the way to go is removing Chaos from it. People like Vulkan are never going to join Chaos but they might go for normal rebellion against Big E.

 Darian Aarush wrote:
Sanguinius would never have fallen to Chaos. Even the most powerful daemons of the Warp were unable to tempt him. He was the best, if the most tragic, of all the Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In terms of Angron and Sanguinius, yes their legions were similar in terms of being heavily assault focused and renowned for their ferocity.

Personally, though, the Primarchs were very different to each other. While Angron led the World Eaters in bloody slaughter, Sanguinius tamed and cultivated the Blood Angels to become more than their base instincts.

Not true. They weren't able to tempt him in the sense of getting him to willingly join their cause, but they did lure him. They offered him the salvation of his legion from their flaw if he would sacrifice himself, and he agreed. He was only saved because an apothecary jumped into the pit before he could, and that apothecary became the Red Angel. What the outcome would have or could have been is pure speculation but the key takeaway is that he agreed to their terms, meaning he could have fallen.

BrianDavion wrote:
despite people saying it was Horus, Sanguinius was in many ways the best of the Primarchs

How so? Other than being a nice guy and a great fighter by their standards, what made him exceptional? Being able to fly doesn't count.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
despite people saying it was Horus, Sanguinius was in many ways the best of the Primarchs

How so? Other than being a nice guy and a great fighter by their standards, what made him exceptional? Being able to fly doesn't count.

Even Horus said Sanguinius should have been Warmaster while he was feverish after his stabbing on Davin. However after that big pronouncement, Sangy's appearances in the HH novels have been somewhat underwhelming.

 Karhedron wrote:

Even Horus said Sanguinius should have been Warmaster while he was feverish after his stabbing on Davin. However after that big pronouncement, Sangy's appearances in the HH novels have been somewhat underwhelming.

Yes, I am well-aware of the narrative espoused that Sanginius is the most fit Primarch to be Warmaster (or Emperor, per Guilliman).

But I challenge that narrative. What about him would make him a great Warmaster? He's never been noted to be particularly good at tactics, strategy, logistics, you know, the things a Warmaster needs to be good at. He's definitely meant to be excellent in the way all the Primarchs are, but he isn't particularly noted for it the way some Primarchs like Horus, Guilliman, or Lion El'Jonson are.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Even Horus said Sanguinius should have been Warmaster while he was feverish after his stabbing on Davin. However after that big pronouncement, Sangy's appearances in the HH novels have been somewhat underwhelming.

Yes, I am well-aware of the narrative espoused that Sanginius is the most fit Primarch to be Warmaster (or Emperor, per Guilliman).

But I challenge that narrative. What about him would make him a great Warmaster? He's never been noted to be particularly good at tactics, strategy, logistics, you know, the things a Warmaster needs to be good at. He's definitely meant to be excellent in the way all the Primarchs are, but he isn't particularly noted for it the way some Primarchs like Horus, Guilliman, or Lion El'Jonson are.

He's very good at everything whereas people like Guilliman are extremely good at one thing. For example you could send Russ to do a genocide and he'd be better than Sanguinius at the genocide but you wouldn't make Russ Warmaster because he sucks at most other aspects of it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Even Horus said Sanguinius should have been Warmaster while he was feverish after his stabbing on Davin. However after that big pronouncement, Sangy's appearances in the HH novels have been somewhat underwhelming.

Yes, I am well-aware of the narrative espoused that Sanginius is the most fit Primarch to be Warmaster (or Emperor, per Guilliman).

But I challenge that narrative. What about him would make him a great Warmaster? He's never been noted to be particularly good at tactics, strategy, logistics, you know, the things a Warmaster needs to be good at. He's definitely meant to be excellent in the way all the Primarchs are, but he isn't particularly noted for it the way some Primarchs like Horus, Guilliman, or Lion El'Jonson are.

I think the role of Warmaster was as much political as it was military. Horus got the job (at least in part) due to his charisma, his ability bring others round to his way of thinking and get them working together. The Lion was arguably a better tactician and Roboute was a better logistician but leading the GC required more than that. It required that element of "star power" and that is where both Horus and Sanguinius excelled.

the ancient wrote:
There was all sorts of minor daemons at Armaggedon there as well.
Now Angrons all encompassing rage is a little out side the box.
With out the nails.
So he had a soothing aura. Lorgar.
He was loyal as f. Dorn.
With the nails rage. Sangy.
Without the nails. Could be Sangys charisma.
Imagine that. Un nailed Angron, being the war master, instead of Horus

I think you're on the money here. People often try to pair up the primarchs, but the reality is that each tends to have dotted lines going to multiple brothers. Angron has dotted lines to those you mention, and definitely Russ also. I'd also make a case for a minor dotted line to Manus, because Angron and the WE are noted to be unsentimental and somewhat utilitarian. Maybe also the Khan for their mutual love of combat. At times it seems like the Khan might understand Angron a little better than some of the rest.

It's like there's a bank of universal keywords, and each primarch gets some combination of 4-6 of them.

 Karhedron wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Considering how many people loved Sanguinius it might have been better to put Sanguinius in charge and put people who complained in the bad part of a Space Hulk.

People also loved Horus. He was popular successful and extremely charismatic. He had a knack for getting people to go along with him. This ability to build concensus was one of his strongest credentials for the role of Warmaster and one of the reasons why Lion El Johnson was never really in contention for the role (despite his obvious tactical abilities). Of course that same charisma made him the perfect target for Chaos since turning him would provide a way to turn many of the other Primarchs.

Ironically, the Lion's rival Russ was also pretty terrible with people and understanding them. Look at the Night of the Wolf. Russ thought he was proving a point to Angron, but never understood that Angron just didn't care about his own life or his Legion. Killing Russ but losing his life to the SW even as they and the WE butchered each other wasn't a bad result in Angron's mind. It was just...Tuesday.

Horus probably was the one best suited to holding the Crusade together. Overall he had the best relationships with the most brothers.

I'm not convinced that not understanding Angron equates to not understanding people at all.

pm713 wrote:

He's very good at everything whereas people like Guilliman are extremely good at one thing. For example you could send Russ to do a genocide and he'd be better than Sanguinius at the genocide but you wouldn't make Russ Warmaster because he sucks at most other aspects of it.

Based on what, exactly, is Sanguinius "very good" at everything by Primarch standards?

Show me some fluff that indicates he was above average at tactics, strategy, and logistics, just those three things. Because Guilliman and Perturabo for example were better than most of their brothers at all of those things. Sanguinius' only notable strengths as a Primarch were combat prowess and being likable. The latter might be good for Warmaster but the Warmaster also needs to be able to deploy troops and coordinate war efforts on a battlefield to galactic scale, and Sanguinius has never been indicated to be a particularly good general compared to his brothers. Some, like Horus, Guilliman, Lion El'Jonson, Perturabo, arguably Alpharius, and Dorn get far more accolades in that regard.

"Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his.."

There's that. Plus a Demon mocking Horus for wanting Sangy dead because he could get more favour from Chaos than him.

pm713 wrote:
"Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his.."

There's that. Plus a Demon mocking Horus for wanting Sangy dead because he could get more favour from Chaos than him.

Only nothing supports that.

He is never, at any point, said to be particularly capable as a tactician, as a strategist, as a logistician, as a diplomat, or anything. He IS shown to be well-liked among his brothers and very lethal in combat even by their standards, but all those other traits are informed abilities, if even that. And frankly, if anything he seems to be a rather ideologically lazy Primarch, just going along with what he's told. Many Primarchs, loyalist or traitor, had ideas about what they and their Legions could do besides bring worlds into compliance. Sanguinius was more like Russ, a dutiful soldier.

pm713 wrote:
I'm not convinced that not understanding Angron equates to not understanding people at all.

Perhaps not. It may just show how fundamentally different they were...at least at that point in time. Still, I don't think any portrayals have suggested that Russ would score well on an EQ test, even among primarchs. And that's okay given his role, which wasn't that of an architect, inspirational figure, consensus-builder, or even a good buddy to his brothers.

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't think A Sanguinian heresy would have happened. if Sanguinus fell it would have been straight to Khorne and it would have been a bloody disorginzed rush, not planned carefully.

As for charisma being why Horus was made warmaster. really that was the MOST important trait. You needed to be a good politican at that level moreso then a good general. And Horus was a amazing politican, he was well liked. and his only feud occured after he was made warmaster (with corax)

I think Slaanesh has it's claws deeper into the soul of the Blood Angels than Khorne.

To avoid the temptations of Khorne they go down the path of artisanry and beauty. Perhaps his protection from chaos came from the fact Sanguinius's two sources of corruption were polar dipoles.