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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




So each imperial world is largely left to govern themselves how they see fit as long as they pay there tithes and worship the Emperor in some way shape or form. Given the sheer number of planets in the Imperium its all but guranteed at least a couple pf them are some for or another of democracy but are there any specific examples of such demcoracys in the lore?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Necromunda Underhive (the reboot one), page 19 wrote:Gothrul's Needle is ruled by that most dangerous and pernicious of governmental forms: democracy. A council of elected representatives control the interest of the hive and regular the activities of the Houses, ensuring the fair treatment of its citizens and safety for all. Considered as insidious as any xenos threat or cult infestation, the Houses of other hives have tried for year to bring down the rulers of Gothrul.
It then goes on to talk about the efforts of the Houses - pretty much a low-level war of sabotage / terrorism.

A quick search of Lexicanum (yes, I know.... take it with a pinch of salt) leads to a paragraph about the Sulsalid Campaign. It mentions how the rebels had "deposed their rightful rulers in favour of heretical ideals of 'progress' and 'democracy'. Determined to stop the spread of treachery the Adeptus Terra ordered the swift destruction of the rebellion."

Based on very, very vague memories of some Inquisitor background in White Dwarf from years ago: I think that the normal system on Imperial Worlds is that there's one (usually hereditary) planetary governor. It's the governor's responsibility to ensure that the planet behaves itself, pays its tithes, etc, and it's the governor who would be executed should he (or her) fails in their duties. A governor can certainly delegate some of their power to other organizations (including democratically elected officials). Indeed, the article was about a planet whose governor ruled with the "assistance" of a not-quite-parliament that was elected by the upper class. However... although a governor can delegate power, he can't delegate responsibility. The governor would still be executed in the event of failure, even if that failure was caused by the not-quite-parliament (although in that case, the not-quite-parliament would also be executed). If I remember correctly, there was a fair bit of friction between the governor and the not-quite-parliament.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Indeed. If a planet wants to elect its governor, that's fine..provided they follow imperial law and custom and are acceptible to the Imperium.

Meaning you can't vote the selected governor out (because he or she is the Adeptus Terra's recognised governor) and you can't vote to withhold the tithe or anything like that.


Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Irongut




It’s the future, the concepts that we recognize as democracy won’t recognizably exist. For the most part it’s hard for us to understand the way we and our idea of democracy are objects acted on by the forces of history.

The way the hive democracy from the necromunda book is attacked by other houses is the same as any other experiment in democracy. The French republics were immediately attacked by every European power, and the Soviet republics were also invaded immediately by 11 different countries. However, one was liberal idealist democracy and one was socialist democracy. There’s lots of disagreement over which if either of these resulted in anything democratic.

Since the idea of what democracy is would change I expect it to be something different. Say there’s a vote, and then everyone who voted for one of the sides, maybe the one with the most or the least, have to give up their jobs and become the military until the next time there’s a vote. Maybe everyone votes but the only things that are up for a vote are who the dog at her is going to be. Maybe voters are assigned by lottery and they sit on juries.



Gothrul's Needle is ruled by that most dangerous and pernicious of governmental forms: democracy. A council of elected representatives control the interest of the hive and regular the activities of the Houses, ensuring the fair treatment of its citizens and safety for all. Considered as insidious as any xenos threat or cult infestation, the Houses of other hives have tried for year to bring down the rulers of Gothrul.

It then goes on to talk about the efforts of the Houses - pretty much a low-level war of sabotage / terrorism.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

There are a number of different kinds of democracy......

I would think most if not all are present on one or more Imperial Planets .

The Imperium is a bit like many Empires - they want you to be quiet productive citizens that pay your taxes (and /or bribes) and to have someone sensible and realistic to deal with if and when they need to.

If you can provide that - your golden. Don't rock the boat and draw attention to yourself is likely a watchword for wannabee Imperial Governors.

Taxes in this case including your military tithe (if present).

The Imperium does interfere more than some with regards to religion but usually overlays the Imperial Cult over the top of native beliefs - however they do have cause given that worshipping the wrong god can lead to deamons and worse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/05 21:49:28


"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Macragge IIRC ahs a senate, as did Vigilius. now differant democracies are going to be differant. you can point to example A and say "but that only gives the franchise to..." but historicly most democaries restrict the franchise. even in modern times the franchise is restricted to citizens and citizenship and that can be a bit.. odd, when you have one citizen whose spent most of his life outside the country with the vote, while someone whose been living in the country longer then the other citizen has been alive, does not have the vote.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Macragge IIRC ahs a senate, as did Vigilius.


Senates aren't always elective either. The Senate of Rome was still an institution in Imperial Rome, but senators were nominated by the Emperor. Another example would be the Canadian senate whose members are also named by the PM not elected by the population.

As for democracies in the Imperium it's not impossible that some local government are elected as long as they pay their tithe, cul mutants and psykers and obey the wider Imperium. I also believe the Grand Ecclesiarch is elected by an assembly of bishops much like the Catholic Pope and the same goes for the Grand Abbess of the Sisterhood. It seems that promotion in the Adeptus Astartes can also be elective with Captain being voted by the member of their company.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Although in theory forms of democratic rule (with the head of state being the Imperial governor) might exist in the Imperium so long as they keep paying their dues, I imagine the nature of the Imperium with its heavy taxation would mean that only governments that are consistently harsh on its people could reliably meet its tithing requirements. That would over time select against forms of democratic rule, at least populist forms since voters would not keep voting for someone that taxes them heavily. Oligarchical forms where the franchise is limited might exist, since then the ones being taxed can be different from those voting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/06 05:52:49


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Funnily enough Imperium itself can be thought of as a (quasi) democracy, seeing supposed ruler is a puppet on a fancy chair and the actual ruling is done by High Lords (analog of council of ministers) and Imperial Senate, members being all elected in some form. Yes, the voting method and franchise are considerably different than a modern standard, but not completely unheard of - for example, City of London (not to be mistaken with London) gives various companies quite a lot of votes on their assembly, similar to various Imperial organizations having representatives on Terra. Yes, vast majority of population doesn't get to vote, but that was historically nearly always the case, in say ancient Athens or Rome plebs didn't get to vote either.

Iracundus wrote:
Although in theory forms of democratic rule (with the head of state being the Imperial governor) might exist in the Imperium so long as they keep paying their dues, I imagine the nature of the Imperium with its heavy taxation would mean that only governments that are consistently harsh on its people could reliably meet its tithing requirements. That would over time select against forms of democratic rule, at least populist forms since voters would not keep voting for someone that taxes them heavily. Oligarchical forms where the franchise is limited might exist, since then the ones being taxed can be different from those voting.

Not really harsh, we see Imperial planets that are not currently at war in Cain series and the life on them doesn't seem to be that unbearable. Then you have Inquisition estimating that to combat Tyranid threat conscription might need to be ramped up 500%, meaning they still have significant safety margin and are nowhere near close to realistic tithing limit.

As for selection of democratic rule, Venetian republic was a (kinda) democracy for 1200 years, despite waging constant wars with not one but four greatest powers of the time, Byzantium, Ottoman Turks, HRE, and various incarnations of France, on top of constant conflict with other Italian states. Outside enemy can be a hell of a good banner to rally against.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Irbis wrote:
Funnily enough Imperium itself can be thought of as a (quasi) democracy, seeing supposed ruler is a puppet on a fancy chair and the actual ruling is done by High Lords (analog of council of ministers) and Imperial Senate, members being all elected in some form. Yes, the voting method and franchise are considerably different than a modern standard, but not completely unheard of - for example, City of London (not to be mistaken with London) gives various companies quite a lot of votes on their assembly, similar to various Imperial organizations having representatives on Terra. Yes, vast majority of population doesn't get to vote, but that was historically nearly always the case, in say ancient Athens or Rome plebs didn't get to vote either.

Iracundus wrote:
Although in theory forms of democratic rule (with the head of state being the Imperial governor) might exist in the Imperium so long as they keep paying their dues, I imagine the nature of the Imperium with its heavy taxation would mean that only governments that are consistently harsh on its people could reliably meet its tithing requirements. That would over time select against forms of democratic rule, at least populist forms since voters would not keep voting for someone that taxes them heavily. Oligarchical forms where the franchise is limited might exist, since then the ones being taxed can be different from those voting.

Not really harsh, we see Imperial planets that are not currently at war in Cain series and the life on them doesn't seem to be that unbearable. Then you have Inquisition estimating that to combat Tyranid threat conscription might need to be ramped up 500%, meaning they still have significant safety margin and are nowhere near close to realistic tithing limit.

As for selection of democratic rule, Venetian republic was a (kinda) democracy for 1200 years, despite waging constant wars with not one but four greatest powers of the time, Byzantium, Ottoman Turks, HRE, and various incarnations of France, on top of constant conflict with other Italian states. Outside enemy can be a hell of a good banner to rally against.


Agreed - although the (male) Plebs could and did vote in Republican Rome- but were often happy to be bribed...but we are not exactly sure how it all worked. Much of that ended after Augustus

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Ottawa

Sometimes the 40k fluff tries to make a point that any non-oppressive planetary government will almost inevitably allow corruption to flourish and Chaos to take root. And sometimes, revolutions by the lower classes against their oppressors are revealed to be part of a Chaos plot (as described in a campaign from the Aeronautica FW sourcebook from last edition, where the serfs revolted and turned out to be in league with Khorne).

This has never sat well with me, because it looks suspiciously like a "meta" justification on the part of GW writers for fascism, imperialism and religious fanaticism.

I'm okay with the Imperium being a xenocidal, militaristic, theocratic hellscape; it's all part of the grim darkness of the far future. I'm not okay at all with the fluff implying that such a system is essential to the survival of humankind. The Imperium should be portrayed as being ruled by people too blinded by dogma to consider common-sense solutions to their many problems. That is part of what makes the 40k universe so grimdark: the solutions are right there (embrace technology and knowledge, form alliances with the Tau and Eldar, decentralize the government to make the Imperium more manageable, wage war more efficiently), yet the people in charge are too narrow-minded to even consider them.

Sorry about the semi-political tangent, but it's just a thing that's always annoyed me. Especially when I see players IRL say: "Well, sure the Imperium is a boot stamping on a face forever, but it has to be! Otherwise it would collapse, and all would fall to Chaos!" No. Shut up. Don't try to imply fascism is in any way necessary, even in a fictional universe. *side-eyes GW*

.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/07 21:11:17


 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





The issue is, that the overlayaing structure of the IoM is so authoritarian in it's fear that any sub government not deemed stable enough becomes an issue for them.
A ruling noble class is easier to keep on a leash then a Hive world democracy.
On top of that not all democracies are created equal and especially the partizipatorial ones ala rouseau /switzerland carry an inherent political radical ideology which would put the sovereignity not with imperial institutions.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in fr
Cog in the Machine





From a narrative point of view, the Imperium is meant to look like something you'd see in the "darkest ages" of Europe. Religious fanaticism, superstition instead of science, largely illiterate populations, lords treating their serfs like cattle, the inquisition burning heretics all around, etc. In a way, WH40k is the middle ages in space (or rather, what people during the late Renaissance era pretended the middle ages were to emphasize their own "enlightenment").

Anyways, the end result is that the Imperium is a feudal empire. Every world is a vassal of the Emperor and by default (maybe because of lazy writers), every world is also more or less feudal: you have a governor at the top, nobles and aristocrats below him and serfs lower down. But nothing says you can't have other forms of government, a planet could work as a communist republic, a constitutional monarchy, an anarchist commune, anything... as long as it is 100% loyal to the Imperium. That last point is maybe why democracy is almost unheard of in 40k fluff: I think most writers assume that democracy means human rights, freedom and equality, all the opposite of the Imperium.

It does not. All "democracy" means is that the population decides things collectively. A democracy can absolutely work in the Imperium: put loyalty to the Emperor as the first and most important article in its constitution and you're done, the rest hardly matters.
It can even fit the grimdark if you want it to: the only difference would be that instead of one lord ordering the genocide of mutants or something, it'd be a popular vote doing it. Which is even darker, if you ask me...
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




It's impossible for real democracy to exist in the imperium because the imperial tithe is mandatory.

Democracy allows for the voting in of new laws and the consensus determination to act at war or other things.

Imperial rule prevents any true self determination.

As does the imperial inquisition
   
Made in nz
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine



New Zealand

Hellebore wrote:
It's impossible for real democracy to exist in the imperium because the imperial tithe is mandatory.

Democracy allows for the voting in of new laws and the consensus determination to act at war or other things.

Imperial rule prevents any true self determination.

As does the imperial inquisition


It will like local elections. You can vote for whatever Mayor and Counsellors you want. They may change the Rates you pay, but you still have to pay tax as determined by the big government.

Or think about the American system. The state have their own elections, but no matter what they still have to pay federal tax.

Imperial Governors could be selected democratically, and adjust his local taxes as appropriate, but the tithe must be paid as normal.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Tygre wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
It's impossible for real democracy to exist in the imperium because the imperial tithe is mandatory.

Democracy allows for the voting in of new laws and the consensus determination to act at war or other things.

Imperial rule prevents any true self determination.

As does the imperial inquisition


It will like local elections. You can vote for whatever Mayor and Counsellors you want. They may change the Rates you pay, but you still have to pay tax as determined by the big government.

Or think about the American system. The state have their own elections, but no matter what they still have to pay federal tax.

Imperial Governors could be selected democratically, and adjust his local taxes as appropriate, but the tithe must be paid as normal.


Issue is, the federal system has legitimacy, what has the Imperium?
And again you are talking about a representative system and even there justification is flimsy.
Because democracy constantly challanges the status quo.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in fr
Cog in the Machine





Not Online!!! wrote:
Tygre wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
It's impossible for real democracy to exist in the imperium because the imperial tithe is mandatory.

Democracy allows for the voting in of new laws and the consensus determination to act at war or other things.

Imperial rule prevents any true self determination.

As does the imperial inquisition


It will like local elections. You can vote for whatever Mayor and Counsellors you want. They may change the Rates you pay, but you still have to pay tax as determined by the big government.

Or think about the American system. The state have their own elections, but no matter what they still have to pay federal tax.

Imperial Governors could be selected democratically, and adjust his local taxes as appropriate, but the tithe must be paid as normal.


Issue is, the federal system has legitimacy, what has the Imperium?
And again you are talking about a representative system and even there justification is flimsy.
Because democracy constantly challanges the status quo.

The Imperium is led by the living god of mankind. That's not bad for "legitimacy". Also, it will annihilate any world rebelling against it. These two things are what make the million worlds of the Imperium stay loyal.

I don't see why a democracy challenges the status quo more than, say, an absolute monarchy. A king can decide to change as many laws as he wants if it strikes his fancy.
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Kildare, Ireland

-Guardsman- wrote:
Sometimes the 40k fluff tries to make a point that any non-oppressive planetary government will almost inevitably allow corruption to flourish and Chaos to take root. And sometimes, revolutions by the lower classes against their oppressors are revealed to be part of a Chaos plot (as described in a campaign from the Aeronautica FW sourcebook from last edition, where the serfs revolted and turned out to be in league with Khorne).

This has never sat well with me, because it looks suspiciously like a "meta" justification on the part of GW writers for fascism, imperialism and religious fanaticism.

I'm okay with the Imperium being a xenocidal, militaristic, theocratic hellscape; it's all part of the grim darkness of the far future. I'm not okay at all with the fluff implying that such a system is essential to the survival of humankind. The Imperium should be portrayed as being ruled by people too blinded by dogma to consider common-sense solutions to their many problems. That is part of what makes the 40k universe so grimdark: the solutions are right there (embrace technology and knowledge, form alliances with the Tau and Eldar, decentralize the government to make the Imperium more manageable, wage war more efficiently), yet the people in charge are too narrow-minded to even consider them.

Sorry about the semi-political tangent, but it's just a thing that's always annoyed me. Especially when I see players IRL say: "Well, sure the Imperium is a boot stamping on a face forever, but it has to be! Otherwise it would collapse, and all would fall to Chaos!" No. Shut up. Don't try to imply fascism is in any way necessary, even in a fictional universe. *side-eyes GW*

.


there is a game-of-thronesian quality to 40k fiction, combined with mice and men 'best laid plans' defeatism. Which is that any time anyone tries to do anything nice or noble or good, they get horribly horribly murdered, and there aren't really happy endings. Just ask Cally Sanstag.

The solutions are not right there. Eldar are species supremacists who throw human worlds under the bus to buy time for a single Eldar to escape. The Tau watercaste are even more slippery if that were possible and are written as such.
Occasional, temporary co-operation with either of these is all humanity is likely to get- a lasting treaty is impossible because the Tau want to expand and the Eldar don't view human life as having value.

In 40k the witchhunts turn up actual witches, the heretics are also occasionally really worshipping devils, the other is constantly trying to destroy you and people who look different are a threat to mankinds survival.

Even in a democratic, peaceful world of the Imperium, you need at least some boots, stamping on some faces forever, or the world will not last.
The great irony of the Imperium is that it overreaches and leans into the boot stamping, creating the ideal conditions for revolutionary sentiments which chaos/xenos sympathisers to hijack.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Tiennos wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Tygre wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
It's impossible for real democracy to exist in the imperium because the imperial tithe is mandatory.

Democracy allows for the voting in of new laws and the consensus determination to act at war or other things.

Imperial rule prevents any true self determination.

As does the imperial inquisition


It will like local elections. You can vote for whatever Mayor and Counsellors you want. They may change the Rates you pay, but you still have to pay tax as determined by the big government.

Or think about the American system. The state have their own elections, but no matter what they still have to pay federal tax.

Imperial Governors could be selected democratically, and adjust his local taxes as appropriate, but the tithe must be paid as normal.


Issue is, the federal system has legitimacy, what has the Imperium?
And again you are talking about a representative system and even there justification is flimsy.
Because democracy constantly challanges the status quo.

The Imperium is led by the living god of mankind. That's not bad for "legitimacy". Also, it will annihilate any world rebelling against it. These two things are what make the million worlds of the Imperium stay loyal.

I don't see why a democracy challenges the status quo more than, say, an absolute monarchy. A king can decide to change as many laws as he wants if it strikes his fancy.


It is bad Legitimacy.
As in not visible or easily understandable. And that makes the sector governor that is not elected not legitimate enough.
See the issue.
Add to that the critical thought and the possibility to well , literally unearth hellish knowledge and consider the point rationalism and critical thought have in democratic systems and you get issues.

There is a reason why "don't tread on me" or the call for "liberty or death/ independence or death" are dangerous.

Add to that the nature of a democratic system generating legitimacy via votes and policymaking through consensus, and the fact that democratic systems therefore evaluate legitimacy diffrently then just "deus Vult" style.
And you create the perfect storm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/08 09:53:43


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in es
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




-Guardsman- wrote:
Sometimes the 40k fluff tries to make a point that any non-oppressive planetary government will almost inevitably allow corruption to flourish and Chaos to take root. And sometimes, revolutions by the lower classes against their oppressors are revealed to be part of a Chaos plot (as described in a campaign from the Aeronautica FW sourcebook from last edition, where the serfs revolted and turned out to be in league with Khorne).

This has never sat well with me, because it looks suspiciously like a "meta" justification on the part of GW writers for fascism, imperialism and religious fanaticism.

I'm okay with the Imperium being a xenocidal, militaristic, theocratic hellscape; it's all part of the grim darkness of the far future. I'm not okay at all with the fluff implying that such a system is essential to the survival of humankind. The Imperium should be portrayed as being ruled by people too blinded by dogma to consider common-sense solutions to their many problems. That is part of what makes the 40k universe so grimdark: the solutions are right there (embrace technology and knowledge, form alliances with the Tau and Eldar, decentralize the government to make the Imperium more manageable, wage war more efficiently), yet the people in charge are too narrow-minded to even consider them.

Sorry about the semi-political tangent, but it's just a thing that's always annoyed me. Especially when I see players IRL say: "Well, sure the Imperium is a boot stamping on a face forever, but it has to be! Otherwise it would collapse, and all would fall to Chaos!" No. Shut up. Don't try to imply fascism is in any way necessary, even in a fictional universe. *side-eyes GW*

.


I agree with this. However, I think there's some kind of dialectic to it which I like. The fascism of the Imperium is actually the best foundation for Chaos to grow, as it calls for rebellions on the one side (which Supports Tzeentch)and also means every Imperial leader is susceptible to Slaanesh or Nurgle. If the Imperium was a utopian society based on equality and/ or freedom Chaos had no chance. But it never was, even the Emperor was a dictator, just a secular one unlike his successors. The Imperium simply never made the progression to something better, but it also couldn't because of Chaos and Xenos. The Imperium is a consequence of its history and the way of the 40K Galaxy. People are wrong when they say "The Imperium has to be like that", but they're right when they say "The Imperium never had the chance to be different and/ because every peaceful or democratic way failed just as much."

That being said, there's still the notion in HH and now with Guilliman that the Imperium could be better if that big white guy would be allowed to do what he wants. Which is of course highly antidemocratic and something we see in many contemporary popculture. The Avengers save the World or take any "Chosen" like Neo in so many American movies. In all of these stories the people are usually some kind of stupid grey mass that has to be saved and can't help itself, which is again a very reactionary view.
   
Made in fr
Cog in the Machine





Not Online!!! wrote:

It is bad Legitimacy.
As in not visible or easily understandable. And that makes the sector governor that is not elected not legitimate enough.
See the issue.
Add to that the critical thought and the possibility to well , literally unearth hellish knowledge and consider the point rationalism and critical thought have in democratic systems and you get issues.

There is a reason why "don't tread on me" or the call for "liberty or death/ independence or death" are dangerous.

Add to that the nature of a democratic system generating legitimacy via votes and policymaking through consensus, and the fact that democratic systems therefore evaluate legitimacy diffrently then just "deus Vult" style.
And you create the perfect storm.

We're not talking about enlightened, rational populations here: the Imperial Cult has spread pretty much everywhere. Not accepting the Emperor as the ultimate ruler of all mankind is heresy and anyone who might think differently will be eliminated sooner or later. You don't even need the Inquisition for that, bigoted populations can lynch people just fine.

Obviously, a democracy in the Imperium couldn't look like a modern day democracy, since the Imperium itself is non democratic. Imperial demands are non-negotiable. There can't be freedom of religion. Freedom of speech would probably be restricted. That doesn't mean that a world couldn't elect its governor, vote on local issues and give its citizens equal rights. Maybe "democracy" isn't the best word to describe that kind of government, but I don't know if there's a better one.

And chaos can be just as dangerous in a feudal system. All it takes is to corrupt one noble high enough on the totem pole to trigger a massive chaos incursion...
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Sgt. Cortez wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
Sometimes the 40k fluff tries to make a point that any non-oppressive planetary government will almost inevitably allow corruption to flourish and Chaos to take root. And sometimes, revolutions by the lower classes against their oppressors are revealed to be part of a Chaos plot (as described in a campaign from the Aeronautica FW sourcebook from last edition, where the serfs revolted and turned out to be in league with Khorne).

This has never sat well with me, because it looks suspiciously like a "meta" justification on the part of GW writers for fascism, imperialism and religious fanaticism.

I'm okay with the Imperium being a xenocidal, militaristic, theocratic hellscape; it's all part of the grim darkness of the far future. I'm not okay at all with the fluff implying that such a system is essential to the survival of humankind. The Imperium should be portrayed as being ruled by people too blinded by dogma to consider common-sense solutions to their many problems. That is part of what makes the 40k universe so grimdark: the solutions are right there (embrace technology and knowledge, form alliances with the Tau and Eldar, decentralize the government to make the Imperium more manageable, wage war more efficiently), yet the people in charge are too narrow-minded to even consider them.

Sorry about the semi-political tangent, but it's just a thing that's always annoyed me. Especially when I see players IRL say: "Well, sure the Imperium is a boot stamping on a face forever, but it has to be! Otherwise it would collapse, and all would fall to Chaos!" No. Shut up. Don't try to imply fascism is in any way necessary, even in a fictional universe. *side-eyes GW*

.


I agree with this. However, I think there's some kind of dialectic to it which I like. The fascism of the Imperium is actually the best foundation for Chaos to grow, as it calls for rebellions on the one side (which Supports Tzeentch)and also means every Imperial leader is susceptible to Slaanesh or Nurgle. If the Imperium was a utopian society based on equality and/ or freedom Chaos had no chance. But it never was, even the Emperor was a dictator, just a secular one unlike his successors. The Imperium simply never made the progression to something better, but it also couldn't because of Chaos and Xenos. The Imperium is a consequence of its history and the way of the 40K Galaxy. People are wrong when they say "The Imperium has to be like that", but they're right when they say "The Imperium never had the chance to be different and/ because every peaceful or democratic way failed just as much."

That being said, there's still the notion in HH and now with Guilliman that the Imperium could be better if that big white guy would be allowed to do what he wants. Which is of course highly antidemocratic and something we see in many contemporary popculture. The Avengers save the World or take any "Chosen" like Neo in so many American movies. In all of these stories the people are usually some kind of stupid grey mass that has to be saved and can't help itself, which is again a very reactionary view.


Hasnt it been heavily implied that the Golden Age of Technology humanity was exactly that kind utopian demcoracy where everybody was equal? And thats why thry never really had to deal with Choas despite 3 of the 4 gods still existing?
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Tiennos wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

It is bad Legitimacy.
As in not visible or easily understandable. And that makes the sector governor that is not elected not legitimate enough.
See the issue.
Add to that the critical thought and the possibility to well , literally unearth hellish knowledge and consider the point rationalism and critical thought have in democratic systems and you get issues.

There is a reason why "don't tread on me" or the call for "liberty or death/ independence or death" are dangerous.

Add to that the nature of a democratic system generating legitimacy via votes and policymaking through consensus, and the fact that democratic systems therefore evaluate legitimacy diffrently then just "deus Vult" style.
And you create the perfect storm.

We're not talking about enlightened, rational populations here: the Imperial Cult has spread pretty much everywhere. Not accepting the Emperor as the ultimate ruler of all mankind is heresy and anyone who might think differently will be eliminated sooner or later. You don't even need the Inquisition for that, bigoted populations can lynch people just fine.

Obviously, a democracy in the Imperium couldn't look like a modern day democracy, since the Imperium itself is non democratic. Imperial demands are non-negotiable. There can't be freedom of religion. Freedom of speech would probably be restricted. That doesn't mean that a world couldn't elect its governor, vote on local issues and give its citizens equal rights. Maybe "democracy" isn't the best word to describe that kind of government, but I don't know if there's a better one.

And chaos can be just as dangerous in a feudal system. All it takes is to corrupt one noble high enough on the totem pole to trigger a massive chaos incursion...


There is a definition for democracy, so you can't say that 40k democracy would look different but still be democacry, that's an oxymoron.

Anyone can call anything whatever they want, but it doesn't mean it's accurate, see Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

You're trying to say that a theocratic fascist oligarchy can have democracy inside it.

But selective democracy isn't democracy. Your emperor needs to be voted for, his supporters need to be voted for, and the local councils (planetary government) needs to be voted for.

If the question is, does the imperium allow planets to use 'one man one vote" style systems of governance, then sure. But that's not democracy.


   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





The idea that you need democracy to give a government legitimacy suggests such a troubling ignorance of history it actually disturbs me. Mankind has been around a loong time, and democracy, especially modern representive is a fairly new thing. the modern USA is just under 2.5 centuries old. the house of commons first sat in the 1300s. Meanwhile Kingdoms and empires ruled by an Imperial Cult dates back to the dawn of civilization. the Imperium of man, is historicly speaking, the rule, and democracy is an exception.

as for definitions of democracy. umm actually it's a little more complex then that. there are NO pure democracies, EVER. never have been never will be. at most what's been acheived is Representive democracy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/09 00:44:14


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Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Tiennos wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

It is bad Legitimacy.
As in not visible or easily understandable. And that makes the sector governor that is not elected not legitimate enough.
See the issue.
Add to that the critical thought and the possibility to well , literally unearth hellish knowledge and consider the point rationalism and critical thought have in democratic systems and you get issues.

There is a reason why "don't tread on me" or the call for "liberty or death/ independence or death" are dangerous.

Add to that the nature of a democratic system generating legitimacy via votes and policymaking through consensus, and the fact that democratic systems therefore evaluate legitimacy diffrently then just "deus Vult" style.
And you create the perfect storm.

We're not talking about enlightened, rational populations here: the Imperial Cult has spread pretty much everywhere. Not accepting the Emperor as the ultimate ruler of all mankind is heresy and anyone who might think differently will be eliminated sooner or later. You don't even need the Inquisition for that, bigoted populations can lynch people just fine.

Obviously, a democracy in the Imperium couldn't look like a modern day democracy, since the Imperium itself is non democratic. Imperial demands are non-negotiable. There can't be freedom of religion. Freedom of speech would probably be restricted. That doesn't mean that a world couldn't elect its governor, vote on local issues and give its citizens equal rights. Maybe "democracy" isn't the best word to describe that kind of government, but I don't know if there's a better one.

And chaos can be just as dangerous in a feudal system. All it takes is to corrupt one noble high enough on the totem pole to trigger a massive chaos incursion...


I come from a country that has had multiple direct democratic institutions that are older then 700 years.
Tell me then, what did not change in regards to how legitimacy changed through the institution.

No democracy is even in unenlightend phases of history, which btw is a nonsense argumentation, dangerous because it enforces local rule and legitimacy processes. Aswell as local responsibility.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
The idea that you need democracy to give a government legitimacy suggests such a troubling ignorance of history it actually disturbs me. Mankind has been around a loong time, and democracy, especially modern representive is a fairly new thing. the modern USA is just under 2.5 centuries old. the house of commons first sat in the 1300s. Meanwhile Kingdoms and empires ruled by an Imperial Cult dates back to the dawn of civilization. the Imperium of man, is historicly speaking, the rule, and democracy is an exception.

as for definitions of democracy. umm actually it's a little more complex then that. there are NO pure democracies, EVER. never have been never will be. at most what's been acheived is Representive democracy


Switzerland does in your mind not exist then?
Landsgemeinde etc? Good to know.

No the issue is democracy as institution is not a good foundation for legitimate rule of an empire.
Because it values legitimacy from down to up in society which is in contrast to the Emperor's rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/09 06:56:40


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_______________________________

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If Jesus had shown up in the XIVth century and unified the world in one big empire, do you think Switzerland would have fought for independence because no one elected that guy? Or would they have welcomed the rule of the guy that everyone thought was the one true god, whose return everyone has been waiting for since ages past? Would democracy suddenly stop existing because of that?
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Tiennos wrote:
If Jesus had shown up in the XIVth century and unified the world in one big empire, do you think Switzerland would have fought for independence because no one elected that guy? Or would they have welcomed the rule of the guy that everyone thought was the one true god, whose return everyone has been waiting for since ages past? Would democracy suddenly stop existing because of that?


Switzerland attacked the pope and the Emperor of the HRE at their height.
Institutions and people with authorithy to act in the name of god.

Ask your question again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/09 08:35:54


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Hellebore wrote:
It's impossible for real democracy to exist in the imperium because the imperial tithe is mandatory.

Democracy allows for the voting in of new laws and the consensus determination to act at war or other things.

Imperial rule prevents any true self determination.

As does the imperial inquisition


Except most democracies over the course of their life have had something similar to the tithe in the form of either a draft or military conscription.

Direct democracy pretty much doesn't work once you go beyond anything bigger than a county level and even your example excluded people based on age and sex (Your example, Landsgemeinde, apparently didn't give women a say till 1991 which is kinda mind boggling for a first world nation).

Generally speaking the IOM cares about three things, Pay your taxes (resources and people), vaguely worship some form of the Imperial cult, and don't get to friendly with aliens or anyone with spikes. Otherwise they don't care how you organize your local government.

   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





HoundsofDemos wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
It's impossible for real democracy to exist in the imperium because the imperial tithe is mandatory.

Democracy allows for the voting in of new laws and the consensus determination to act at war or other things.

Imperial rule prevents any true self determination.

As does the imperial inquisition


Except most democracies over the course of their life have had something similar to the tithe in the form of either a draft or military conscription.

Direct democracy pretty much doesn't work once you go beyond anything bigger than a county level and even your example excluded people based on age and sex (Your example, Landsgemeinde, apparently didn't give women a say till 1991 which is kinda mind boggling for a first world nation).

Generally speaking the IOM cares about three things, Pay your taxes (resources and people), vaguely worship some form of the Imperial cult, and don't get to friendly with aliens or anyone with spikes. Otherwise they don't care how you organize your local government.



1 Kanton/ state. out of 26.
And secondly democracy is a process mostly kicked off after WW1 due to people demanding self determination.
UNiversal sufferage was introduced to keep the women in line and to avoid further issues of strikes etc. As was the removal of census based voting rights.
and guess which country did not need the additional workforce to survive 2 world wars because the men weren't lost?

Also I will refer to initiative and Referendums right to counter your argumentation of only working in county levels.
There is a reason the system is called "Half-direct-democracy"



Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
The idea that you need democracy to give a government legitimacy suggests such a troubling ignorance of history it actually disturbs me. Mankind has been around a loong time, and democracy, especially modern representive is a fairly new thing. the modern USA is just under 2.5 centuries old. the house of commons first sat in the 1300s. Meanwhile Kingdoms and empires ruled by an Imperial Cult dates back to the dawn of civilization. the Imperium of man, is historicly speaking, the rule, and democracy is an exception.

as for definitions of democracy. umm actually it's a little more complex then that. there are NO pure democracies, EVER. never have been never will be. at most what's been acheived is Representive democracy


i am mostly argueing against that statement. because it is objectively wrong.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/09 09:26:40


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"You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship! A self-perpetuating autocracy, in which the working classes.."

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
 
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