Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
So Chapter Master Valrak has some info on the Imperial fists supplement.
It's supposed to be out at the end of the month (this is pretty obvious as GW's done a once a month release window)
Apparently Impulsors are confirmed to be part of this release, no word yay or nay on if Infiltrators are part of it, it's assumed but I could see GW holding them off until PA book 2 and putting them out with that given that PA 2 is supposed to be Black Templars. Black Templars are confirmed to not be in the book
The Doctrine ability is confirmed to be +1D from heavy weapons vs vehicle and buildings when in devestator doctrine.
Warlord traits:
Fleetmaster: Once per game you can make a Orbital bombardment (given most books have a way to get a second WL trait for a command point this could be worth while if you typically use the orbital barrage strat)
Stubbron Heroism - Warlord CANNOT fallback, when resolving an attack against the warlord, half any damage inflicted (round up)
Crimson Fists get Warlord traits too.
such as:
Refuse to die: Gulliman style ressurection
Strats:
Bitter Enemy: when meleeing an iron warrior unit re-roll hit and wound rolls. - 1 CP (seems most chapters with a historical nemisis get a strat like this)
Bolter Drill: unmodified it roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit (so 3 hits on a roll of 6 with that strat?) - 2 CP Bolster Defences: 1 CP works a bit like the tech marine ability of the same name. can only use once per battle
Pain is a Lesson: 1 CP 6 up feel no pain on non-vehicles or servators
Preatorians Wraith: 2 CP May use in devestator doctrine to improve your AP on a ehavy weapon even more. once per battle.
Psyker abilities:
Fortify: Warp charge value of 4. may health an infantry or biker unit up to D3 lost wounds.
Iron Inferno WCV 6: 18 inch range, roll 1d6 each enemy unit within 6 inches of a point chosen sufers 1 mortal wound on a 4+
Relics:
Banner of Stangada: IF ancient model only, when resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model within a unit that is within 6 inches of the banner add +1 to hit rolls.
Eye of Hippanoth: re-roll wound rolls of 1 for ranged attacks within 6 inches.
IanVanCheese wrote: Pretty underwhelming if true, but I'm assuming this isn't the meatiest stuff in the book.
A lot of this is just stuff we already know though (the CF warlord trait is from White Dwarf, the Eye of Hippanoth was in Vigilus.
well one thing to bare in mind is Valrak is a self described "narrative focus player" so he's focusing on stuff that looks fun and fluffy over "man how can I break this for tournies?"
but yeah nothing stands out as partiuclarly insane, I kinda like stubbron Heroism as it's not JUST a straight upgrade, it adds a "down side" to it too. I can literally imagine a Imperial Fists/ultramarines joint force where the Fist captain is screaming "never give up never surrender! don't let them have an inch!" while the UM captain is fighting with feigned retreats etc and just shaking his head about fist stubbronness
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 01:43:10
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
casvalremdeikun wrote: Allegedly, there is a good deal amount of stuff that deals with buildings. So a sizeable portion of the book is trash. Very disappointing.
so the seige masters have tools for a siege?
Makes sense to me. the problem of course is that buildings etc just aren't very good in 8th.
IMHOGW should put out a boxed set with specific siegecraft rules.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
As I said earlier when this was first rumoured, the superdoctrine is stupid. It promotes the use of heavy bolters and other multishot heavy weapons over proper vehicle and bunker busters like missiles and lascannons. This is not fluffy for the IF and promotes boring gameplay as you can just use those multishot weapons effectively against all targets.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Allegedly, there is a good deal amount of stuff that deals with buildings. So a sizeable portion of the book is trash. Very disappointing.
so the seige masters have tools for a siege?
Makes sense to me. the problem of course is that buildings etc just aren't very good in 8th.
IMHOGW should put out a boxed set with specific siegecraft rules.
it isn't just that buildings aren't good. They are worthless. Their rules are all over the place with inconsistent rules and points.
If they wanted to really do something cool, they would have made Imperial Fists better at attacking models in cover and ruins. Not only do they ignore cover, but they get bonuses against models in cover or on ruins. Have them get +1 to Wound when attacking models in cover. Give them SOMETHING that doesn't require their opponent to use garbage units that no one uses.
If they wanted to really do something cool, they would have made Imperial Fists better at attacking models in cover and ruins. Not only do they ignore cover, but they get bonuses against models in cover or on ruins. Have them get +1 to Wound when attacking models in cover. Give them SOMETHING that doesn't require their opponent to use garbage units that no one uses.
Please, no! Ignoring cover is bad enough, making cover an active detriment would be even worse. The terrain already matters way too little, and incentivising the opponent to avoid all interaction with is just bad idea.
IF are thematically and aesthetically my favourite first founding chapter, but I really dislike how they're approaching their rules.
I think the problem is IFs are designed as a seige ASSAULT army, but they're most famous as a siege defence army.
Redesign them to favor fighting in cover. so they get their extra hits on 6s with a bolter rule, and when they're in cover (ranged?) attacks vs Imperial Fists... ohh I dunno suffer a -1 to wound?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 02:42:29
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I see. It all makes sense now. The only counter to Marines is..... other Marines!
So IH are countered by IF, no doubt IF are countered by RG and so on and so forth.
The game is 100%, completely balanced, as long as we play only Marines, and why would you want to play anything else - given the model and rules support? It's a shame that GW have forgotten other factions exist in the setting but there we are.
IF Dev Centurions in Siegebreaker detachments now just autodelete them.
IF Leviathans have D3 storm cannons.
Stalkers now do flat 3.
Redemptors get 18 D2 shots each.
I'm really not convinced that GW has math'd out all these damage increases and decreases they're throwing about like candy...
As a vehicle heavy Eldar player I'm terrified of this. Assault Cannons and Gatling Cannons already completely shred my army if I let them and their damage is getting doubled?
An Actual Englishman wrote: I see. It all makes sense now. The only counter to Marines is..... other Marines!
So IH are countered by IF, no doubt IF are countered by RG and so on and so forth.
The game is 100%, completely balanced, as long as we play only Marines, and why would you want to play anything else - given the model and rules support? It's a shame that GW have forgotten other factions exist in the setting but there we are.
We are now officially playing 30k 2.0. Awesome.
Not sure IH is really balanced by IF. Biggest boost for IF is for weapons like heavy bolters and assault cannons...which gets no benefit from IF ability vs IH...
Combined with -1dam even not being only thing going for IH they are likely still going to be the top dog
Yeah, I think throwing out armywide plus and minus damage stuff is not a great trend. White Scars got it too, though I suppose it's more muted or hidden being turn 3+ at the earliest and in close combat, where you usually need explosive overkill anyhow (not saying it isn't insanely strong when a well-built +1 damage White Scars army hits).
Without knowing other strats, WL-traits, etc.., I still think Iron Hands is better. Their -1 damage is against everything, not just vehicles in the shooting phase with certain weapons. And the added resilience just syncs so much with the ability to repair everything, forcing the opponent to one-turn-kill the big stuff or waste their firepower.
And as said, I don't think Imperial Fists (assuming the +1 damage vs. vehicles is true) will deter Iron Hands. But it WILL murder most non-IH vehicle lists. Venom-spam? Gone. Imperial Knights? Gone. Disco Lords? Gone. AdMech? Gone. Mech-Tau? Gone (along with Riptide-Tau being perfectly-countered by IHs). Eldar vehicles/flyers? Gone. Etc..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/11 09:02:53
casvalremdeikun wrote: Allegedly, there is a good deal amount of stuff that deals with buildings. So a sizeable portion of the book is trash. Very disappointing.
so the seige masters have tools for a siege?
Isn't that Iron Warriors? I thought Iron Warriors were the siege assault specialists, but the Imperial Fists were the defense specialists?
Dorn did build the Imperial Palace, iirc.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
An Actual Englishman wrote: I see. It all makes sense now. The only counter to Marines is..... other Marines!
So IH are countered by IF, no doubt IF are countered by RG and so on and so forth.
The game is 100%, completely balanced, as long as we play only Marines, and why would you want to play anything else - given the model and rules support? It's a shame that GW have forgotten other factions exist in the setting but there we are.
We are now officially playing 30k 2.0. Awesome.
Actually IF counter Raven Guard pretty well too. Ravenguard get free cover past 12 inches, IFs ignore cover. ... (actually thats one for a FAQ question. Raven guaed get -1 to hit when in cover, do they get that -1 to hit when in cover and being shot by someone with ignores cover?)
this is that I imagine GW'll slowly bring chapter tactics into line to make some armies more inclined to counter another. GW's ALWAYS liked rock paper scissors.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
An Actual Englishman wrote: I see. It all makes sense now. The only counter to Marines is..... other Marines!
So IH are countered by IF, no doubt IF are countered by RG and so on and so forth.
The game is 100%, completely balanced, as long as we play only Marines, and why would you want to play anything else - given the model and rules support? It's a shame that GW have forgotten other factions exist in the setting but there we are.
We are now officially playing 30k 2.0. Awesome.
Actually IF counter Raven Guard pretty well too. Ravenguard get free cover past 12 inches, IFs ignore cover. ... (actually thats one for a FAQ question. Raven guaed get -1 to hit when in cover, do they get that -1 to hit when in cover and being shot by someone with ignores cover?)
this is that I imagine GW'll slowly bring chapter tactics into line to make some armies more inclined to counter another. GW's ALWAYS liked rock paper scissors.
It's important to get the actual wording of both rules set in your mind before considering the need for an FAQ.
Siege Masters says targets do not gain the benefit of cover to their saving throw. No mention of any impact to any other benefit of cover, if it exists. The only impact here is that cover does not benefit a saving throw.
Shadow Masters says Raven Guard get -1 to hit when they're entirely on or within a terrain feature. Whether they're receiving the benefit of cover from that feature is irrelevant to the triggering requirement for the -1 to hit.
I'm very confident that they would gain -1 to hit, but would still not benefit from any boost to their cover save.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 09:52:27
For fists, I'm liking the idea of Contemptor Mortis dreads with two twin heavy bolters and the Cyclone. I normally do not like working with resin at all, but I've long wanted one of those units with heavy bolters for hobby reasons anyway, so it might be worth considering...
...if it weren't for the deep dark feeling of dread I have over FW units and the forthcoming CA19. I'd buy it today if I was confident I could realistically use it in a game before it gets nerfed to hell and back. FW units do not tend to fare well when points balancing hits. If they remain unchanged, is 22 points worth the relic upgrade? If I'm not mistaken, it looks like it gains 2 wounds, +1 to its save, and a 6+++. Just need to find out where to cut to make it fit.
If Seismic Devastation makes it into the Supplement like Eye of Hypnoth did, then I'll be pretty happy, too.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/11 10:36:17
I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Groaning favourably at the pun, btw.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 12:12:32
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Groaning favourably at the pun, btw.
Aha. Yes, the cyclone does make a difference. Fair point then. And I agree that the value of the Pavaise sort of shouldn't be factored in, because it protects other stuff and not the Deredeo - but if you do want it then the Deredeo becomes kind of the obvious choice.
I've tended to not like cyclones. That might actually change once you add devastator doctrine. Their cost has also come down significantly, making them a very interesting option.
I wonder if quad autocannon contemptors are the way to go. You lose four shots but the damage remains the same I think (8x3 instead of 12x2) and you're more likely to wound. No exploding 6s though. It strikes me that this is better in general, but maybe not better with Fist CTs. I wonder if there's a successor chapter that would really benefit it though. Adding something like Master of Artisans to a Cyclone does quite a lot.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Groaning favourably at the pun, btw.
Aha. Yes, the cyclone does make a difference. Fair point then. And I agree that the value of the Pavaise sort of shouldn't be factored in, because it protects other stuff and not the Deredeo - but if you do want it then the Deredeo becomes kind of the obvious choice.
I've tended to not like cyclones. That might actually change once you add devastator doctrine. Their cost has also come down significantly, making them a very interesting option.
I wonder if quad autocannon contemptors are the way to go. You lose four shots but the damage remains the same I think (8x3 instead of 12x2) and you're more likely to wound. No exploding 6s though. It strikes me that this is better in general, but maybe not better with Fist CTs. I wonder if there's a successor chapter that would really benefit it though. Adding something like Master of Artisans to a Cyclone does quite a lot.
Hmm, I do like the autocannon idea, and even though it balloons the unit's cost a bit it does look pretty powerful, even if it's only more likely to wound against T7 vehicles (which is valuable to have, no doubt). I ran the numbers through the mathhammer app to get an idea of where they might stack up. Obviously, against T7 vehicles, the autocannons outdamage the bolter option. It starts at about half a point of damage different until you start stacking on the reroll auras, at which point it balloons to about 1.16 damage more.
Where it gets really insane is when you consider a T8 target with those same reroll auras applied. I don't know if this app is reputable (it's from the mathhammer 40k website guy) and I'm not in a position to run the numbers manually myself. but it indicates that the bolter guy does a whole 2.2 damage more than the autocannons, likely triggered entirely by those exploding sixes.
But now that I look at this, it doesn't make much sense. I think it's not working right with the exploding six logic...
Which brings us right back around - if it's the maths that are off, then the Deredeo is the superior choice here. My apologies!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/11 14:02:21
I like stubborn heroism. Is one of the only proper "advantage but with a sensible drawback".
But it would probably be more balanced if it was for damage in meele.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: I like stubborn heroism. Is one of the only proper "advantage but with a sensible drawback".
But it would probably be more balanced if it was for damage in meele.
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 
~4100
~1660
