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That's basically it.

In the metaphysics of 40k, they fit all the criteria for a daemon Prince.

They have an advantage in that they are bound to a psycoactive wraithbone body which retains their essence in the material world, but they are now more warp entity than physical.


Which is why it aggravates me that they refuse to give them the stats commensurate with being an exalted of khaine...

I thought avatars were daemon princes of Khaine.

 slave.entity wrote:
I thought avatars were daemon princes of Khaine.

No, a daemon Prince is a mortal elevated to daemonhood. An avatar is a greater daemon of khaine. Given that every Damon is a fragment of their god and avatars are the fragments of khaine.

yes because being able to take 8 fething primarch level characters in a single list would be fair and balanced

BrianDavion wrote:
yes because being able to take 8 fething primarch level characters in a single list would be fair and balanced

Except you can't? You can take just as many Phoenix lords as you can any other character in a 40k army list. You can take bloodthirsters at the same rate as Phoenix lords.

Daemon princes go considerably beyond what the Phoenix Lords are. They can travel via the warp to manifest elsewhere in the material realm, they can re-form in the warp if slain in the material world, and are powered and to some extent controlled by their patron god. None of that really applies to the Phoenix Lords - they're souls trapped in Spirit Stones that can merge with the personality of the person wearing the armor. But the person inside is still mortal and simply incredibly well equipped with access to the skills and memories of an Eldar that is the pinnacle of the warrior path.

 John Prins wrote:
Daemon princes go considerably beyond what the Phoenix Lords are. They can travel via the warp to manifest elsewhere in the material realm, they can re-form in the warp if slain in the material world, and are powered and to some extent controlled by their patron god. None of that really applies to the Phoenix Lords - they're souls trapped in Spirit Stones that can merge with the personality of the person wearing the armor. But the person inside is still mortal and simply incredibly well equipped with access to the skills and memories of an Eldar that is the pinnacle of the warrior path.

... there is no person left in the armour (when the next person puts it on, they disappear). It's literally possessed by the spirits of the dead, which is what warp entities are - the soul energy of other things manifested as creatures. Daemon princes just happen to be a single entity that through some great machination gained all that soul energy to become daemonic. The phoenix lord requires the sacrifice of a living soul to reawaken it after it has been 'killed' , which is pretty much an auto summoning ritual. The phoenix lords are definitely controlled to some extent by Khaine, as all Exarchs are. They have 'fallen' to khaine and are Khaine's champions.

This is the point - 40k metaphysics isn't complicated. warp gods all function the same way and follow the same rules / metaphysics.

The only difference is that phoenix lord soul gestalts are retained within realspace and can't be banished to the warp. That means they can't dematerialise into the warp, but that's not because they intrinsically can't.

If you gave a wraithlord to a daemon to possess they'd be locked into realspace as well. Wraithbone specifically is capable of keeping warp energy in realspace, hence the infinity circuit. But there's nothing different about a soul in realspace and that same soul set adrift in the warp. They still work the same way.

Hellebore wrote:

... there is no person left in the armour (when the next person puts it on, they disappear).

Citation needed. The online lore resources don't mention this, the CWE Codex doesn't mention this. The sources say the soul stone replaces the wearer's personality.

 John Prins wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

... there is no person left in the armour (when the next person puts it on, they disappear).

Citation needed. The online lore resources don't mention this, the CWE Codex doesn't mention this. The sources say the soul stone replaces the wearer's personality.

The novel Void Hunter sees the character of Jain Zar fighting against a squad of veteran Night Lords. She is slain by them but does suffer several injuries that reveals that she bleads just like any other Eldar. Her face mask is even broken by a kick from the main character revealing a normal looking Eldar woman underneath. Should this book be considered canon, Phoenix Lords are spirits possessing flesh and blood Eldars as long as they are wearing their armor. The armor themselves though do seem to have something a bit magical about them since they can self repair instantaneously when they find a new wearer as shown in Path of the Warrior with the armor of Karandras.

That same Path of the Warrior shows a Karandras with its armor ripped open, and there is nothing inside except swirling motes of light like a miniature galaxy.

Hellebore wrote:
Given that every Damon is a fragment of their god and avatars are the fragments of khaine.

Which god is Matt a fragment of?

Hellebore wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
I thought avatars were daemon princes of Khaine.

No, a daemon Prince is a mortal elevated to daemonhood. An avatar is a greater daemon of khaine. Given that every Damon is a fragment of their god and avatars are the fragments of khaine.

Makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stats-wise I would expect something with the title of "Phoenix Lord" to be more threatening than some random space marine captain or named lieutenant or something.

That's because GW can't write rules to save their lives sometimes. Phoenix Lords aren't done well at all.

They 100% are not Demon Princes of Khaine. They can't resurrect themselves, they don't follow Khaine and they're not demons just possessed armour.

Iracundus wrote:
That same Path of the Warrior shows a Karandras with its armor ripped open, and there is nothing inside except swirling motes of light like a miniature galaxy.

I would probably trust Path of the Warrior over Void Hunter for information about Eldars, but there seems to be some condratiction between two soucres.

epronovost wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
That same Path of the Warrior shows a Karandras with its armor ripped open, and there is nothing inside except swirling motes of light like a miniature galaxy.

I would probably trust Path of the Warrior over Void Hunter for information about Eldars, but there seems to be some condratiction between two soucres.

Black Library is so inconsistent, and you have to parse which book is most recent - and even then it might not be considered canon.

At least with the rulebook/codexes you can point to the most recent edition as 'current canon'.

 John Prins wrote:

epronovost wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
That same Path of the Warrior shows a Karandras with its armor ripped open, and there is nothing inside except swirling motes of light like a miniature galaxy.

I would probably trust Path of the Warrior over Void Hunter for information about Eldars, but there seems to be some condratiction between two soucres.

Black Library is so inconsistent, and you have to parse which book is most recent - and even then it might not be considered canon.

At least with the rulebook/codexes you can point to the most recent edition as 'current canon'.

I believe Void Stalker (I got the name wrong) is a little bit more recent then Path of the Warrior but only by two years. Both trilogy ended pretty much at the same date, but one was the first and the other the last one of the trilogy.

Counter hill: Eldar souls mostly only have access to sterile, walled off spaces in their afterlife. Phoenix lords would be consumed by or be avatars of slaanesh if not for their technology. They’re not demon princes, they’re daemon hosts.

I always assumed that the phoenix lords went 'Kenobi' when they died. That their body disappeared (maybe adsorbed by the armour) upon death. That is why when the armour is found it is empty.

Once they get a new model they will get new stats to reflect.

Just look at Index Greater Daemons at the start of 8th and the updated datasheet they got after their plastic makeover.

But Jain zar got her update and still sucks.... no invun is hilarious and a great meme for how poorly GW writes rules

or.. amybe GW fundamentally disagrees with the OP

BrianDavion wrote:
yes because being able to take 8 fething primarch level characters in a single list would be fair and balanced

Taking the avatar of khaine with ever PL comes to 1500 points last time I counted.

Might be fun for narrative but it doesnt even leave enough points to take min squad of respective aspects or fill put a battalion... If you think they are primarch level then i just have to laugh.. they arent even SM captain level..

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes because being able to take 8 fething primarch level characters in a single list would be fair and balanced

Taking the avatar of khaine with ever PL comes to 1500 points last time I counted.

Might be fun for narrative but it doesnt even leave enough points to take min squad of respective aspects or fill put a battalion... If you think they are primarch level then i just have to laugh.. they arent even SM captain level..

that's kinda my point, the OP is arguing they should all be primarch level.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes because being able to take 8 fething primarch level characters in a single list would be fair and balanced

Taking the avatar of khaine with ever PL comes to 1500 points last time I counted.

Might be fun for narrative but it doesnt even leave enough points to take min squad of respective aspects or fill put a battalion... If you think they are primarch level then i just have to laugh.. they arent even SM captain level..

that's kinda my point, the OP is arguing they should all be primarch level.

Ah gotcha. I actualy wanted tomake a list with them all an min aspect squad but .. its just a big bagof nope. Maybe against a horde of deamons in a narrative setting.

Phoenix lords are in no way daemon princes of Khaine. Phoenix lords are the antithesis of this, with more in common with Ynnead than Khaine.

The Path was created by Asurman and later taught to Jain Zar in effort to counteract Khaine hold on their soul. A further point is that the Phoenix Lords where developed only after the Fall, so after Khaine was shattered. Khaine has no control over the Phoenix Lords in the same way he does over Exarchs.

The Phoenix Lords are, in essence, tiny sentient infinity circuits made up of the souls of everyone to don the armour. This is where their power comes from, the currency of souls, and the reason the Phoenix Lords have this ability and no other is because Maugan Ra was one of the Primary inventors of the infinity circuit.

I’d suggest reading the Asureman and Jain Zar books, they shed a lot of light on how the Phoenix lords where created and their relationship with Khaine. Jain Zar interacts with the Prime Shard of Khaine, the largest fragment after he was shattered, and the argument is fantastic. If you had any thoughts that they serve Khaine then that book would put you back right.

Tl;dr Phoenix lords aren’t beholden to Khaine, and their power comes from essentially being miniature infinity circuits.

Minor detail: It's Ulthwé's avatar she has the argument with not the prime shard.

That's the shard the Ynnari face in Ghost Warrior.

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes because being able to take 8 fething primarch level characters in a single list would be fair and balanced

If you think they are primarch level then i just have to laugh.. they arent even SM captain level..

SM's fans so funny
Phoenix Lords>>>>>>>>>>SM capitans and even chapter masters

darkoms wrote:

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes because being able to take 8 fething primarch level characters in a single list would be fair and balanced

If you think they are primarch level then i just have to laugh.. they arent even SM captain level..

SM's fans so funny
Phoenix Lords>>>>>>>>>>SM capitans and even chapter masters

I don't know, Phoenix Lords probably die about as often as a Chapter Master for any particular Space Marine Chapter. They just recover the armor and pop in another Exarch.

In game, I'd be glad if they could stand up to a Chapter Master.

In 2nd Edition Phoenix Lords were stat wise similar to SM Captains. For what its worth, personally I would prefer if they were Chapter Master level and regular Exarchs between SM Lt and SM Captains (not Sgt level).

 John Prins wrote:

darkoms wrote:

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes because being able to take 8 fething primarch level characters in a single list would be fair and balanced

If you think they are primarch level then i just have to laugh.. they arent even SM captain level..

SM's fans so funny
Phoenix Lords>>>>>>>>>>SM capitans and even chapter masters

I don't know, Phoenix Lords probably die about as often as a Chapter Master for any particular Space Marine Chapter. They just recover the armor and pop in another Exarch.

In game, I'd be glad if they could stand up to a Chapter Master.

Maugan Ra:
During the 13th Black Crusade, Maugan Ra journeyed into the Eye of Terror and discovered that his Craftworld and its people had survived, even in the perilous domain of the Chaos Gods, and subsequently freed it from the Eye of Terror.

On the planet of Stormvald in the Segmentum Tempestus, Maugan-Ra stood alone against a Tyranid swarm from Hive Fleet Leviathan and single-handedly triumphed.