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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





These are highly under utilized because they offer no advantages over wave serpents.

Falcon - Assault Transport - falcon May move and units may disembark and move and shoot or charge.
This would make the falcon awesome for aggressive play with Eldar elite infantry like fire dragons and banshees.
Maybe even give them the ability to give their deployed unit a -1 to hit or something to increase survivability.

Vyper - jink ability - After Firing the vyper May move 6” in any direction.
Also possibly give the vyper the option to be armed with double bright lances. Or basically go double heavy weapons on it instead of limiting it to Shuriken cannon + heavy weapon

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/15 07:50:08


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Falcons should be transport options rather than heavy support

   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Hellebore wrote:
Falcons should be transport options rather than heavy support
Maybe this. But also give them the shoot twice rule that Prisms have. Ya know one that's NAMED after the Falcon's primary weapon: Pulsed Laser Discharge!

All Vypers need is to treat Heavy weapons as Assault like the DE skimmers do

-

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Nah vypers get blasted quite easily and need something to either improve survivability or grant a second heavy weapon option to increase lethality.

Right now war walkers do much better for the same price. They survive a lot more and have a second heavy weapon. And they deep strike essentially
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I like the move-shoot-move idea. I also like the dual heavy weapon option, but since the model isn't outfitted for it, I'd doubt GW would make that happen.
Heck even if they were to release a new kit with more options, the underslung weapon is likely to only include Cats Cannons and Lasers like Windriders.

So if we give them those 3 options for the under gun, let them treat Heavies as Assault AND give them move-shoot-move, I think they will be quite capable of completing with WWs without straight up replacing them

-

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





IMO to represent Eldar speed and nimbless, they should be able to perform assault moves whether they are assaulting or not.

This is riffing on the BFG rules for Eldar ships where they moved in the ordnance phase as well as the movement phase.

I actually think this should apply to all eldar vehicles and living models, but I definitely think the vyper should be able to do it

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





warpedpig wrote:
Nah vypers get blasted quite easily and need something to either improve survivability or grant a second heavy weapon option to increase lethality.

Right now war walkers do much better for the same price. They survive a lot more and have a second heavy weapon. And they deep strike essentially


You're correct in identifying that vypers compete with war walkers who outclass them in terms of survivability and firepower. However, if our solution is just to increase the vyper's survivability and firepower, we're just continuing to make these options fight for the same niche rather than giving vypers their own place.

Normally, I'm not a big fan of bringing back jump-shoot-jump. It tended to be a frustrating (read: "unfun") rule to have used against you, especially if your army lacked the mobility to deal with it. However, the vyper has been so neglected for so long, that a JSJ mechanic might possibly be justified in their case. A couple of alternatives:

1.) A variation on a bike mechanic someone pitched a while back. What if you allowed them to move X" after shooting IF they did not move at all during the movement phase? This prevents them from popping out in front of walls and then hopping back behind them (the thing that drove opponents crazy), but you'd still be able to relocate after firing and play cagey. You'd have to encourage your opponent to move his units into your line of sight on his own turn to make use of this. The only thing about this suggestion is that it makes vypers feel very start-and-stop rather than speedy or agile.

2.) Make vypers a 1 per 3 add-on to windriders. For every 3 bikes in the windrider unit, the squad may be joined by a vyper. This functionally turns the vyper into a heavier weapon platform for the bikes. The unit can either treat the bikes as ablative wounds for the vypers, the vypers as ablative wounds for the bikes, or you can simply throw even more heavy weapons into a single squad than normal.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
warpedpig wrote:


Falcon - Assault Transport - falcon May move and units may disembark and move and shoot or charge.
This would make the falcon awesome for aggressive play with Eldar elite infantry like fire dragons and banshees.
Maybe even give them the ability to give their deployed unit a -1 to hit or something to increase survivability.


The -1 to hit feels a bit odd, but I do like the idea of letting units disembark after the falcon moves. After all, marines can do it. Surely eldar can pull off a feat of coordinated dexterity to match if not exceed that! That said, I'm a little iffy about letting units charge after hopping out. Pretty sure the marine version only allows shooting, so maintaining parody with that seems appropriate. Plus, a falcon move + 3" disembark is likely to result in a lot of frustrating turn 1 charges.

Making the falcon a dedicated transport and letting its passengers disembark after it moves would make it useful for dragons, warlock conclaves (of all things), AP-3 Dire Avengers, and wraith guard if you were to lower their minimum squad size to 3. It also gives it an ability that doesn't require it to directly compete with the wave serpent in terms of durability or raw offense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/16 03:06:14



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

On #1 for Vypers, I think allowing them to move in the Charge phase (as if it were the Move phase) if they didn't move in the Movement phase might work for them. Possibly as a 1 CP stratagem?

As for Falcon, perhaps give them back their "Pop-up" attack? In that if they don't move in the Movement phase they gain Ignores Cover (simulating them rising up, shooting, and then dropping back down). Lets you set them behind a building out of sight, and use this ability - however, since you didn't move the enemy can try to maneuver to a position to get a shot on the tank.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Maybe give the falcon a power field. 5+ invuln. Or the pop up. Something to make it more survivable. It’s supposed to be the basic tank of the Eldar. But it isn’t exactly tanky. The wave serpent is tougher and it is an armored personnel carrier. Lol. That’s like having a battle tank that’s got weaker armor than a troop carrier. It’s dumb.

If the falcon could deploy like the war walker. Had a power field. Or had pop up attacks. Then it would be pretty badass and worth actually using. As of right now the wave serpent out performs it in every way. Tougher. Same damage out put. And can dish out mortal wounds. And carries more troop.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

warpedpig wrote:
Maybe give the falcon a power field. 5+ invuln. Or the pop up. Something to make it more survivable. It’s supposed to be the basic tank of the Eldar. But it isn’t exactly tanky. The wave serpent is tougher and it is an armored personnel carrier. Lol. That’s like having a battle tank that’s got weaker armor than a troop carrier. It’s dumb.
I disagree. Especially from an Aeldari point of view. You need the tank that is designed to get closer to the enemy to be tougher to protects its valuable passengers. A Battle tank that is meant to sit back an pew-pew is relying on that distance and it's speed to stay safe.
But I do agree that since the Falcon is also meant to carry pasengers, it should also have some kind of durability boost. Holofields used to be a staple of a Falcon so that needs to be brought back.
I also want to reiterate the NEED for Falcons to have the Pulsed Laser Discharge ability the same as Prisms. If nothing other than the name of the ability is the name of the Falcons primary weapons. Let the Pulse Laser shoot twice and suddenly Falcons are closer to on-par with Prisms. Give them Holofields and they are closer to as durable as Serpents.
Not as good as either, but good enough and more versatile.

I'm also on board with Vypers being able to move in the Charge phase even it not charging. It feels more like the old days when Eldar Jetbikes (even DE ones) could do that. It got too crazy in 7E when they gave Scatter lasers to Windriders, but I feel like giving the ability in moderation to units like Vypers could be a good way to make Vypers good again, give Eldar players that playstyle back without it being super abusable (because Vypers aren't as spammable or easy to hide)

-

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Pulsed laser and Holofields would be great. The trouble is what about the troop transport ability? How to make that work well. I think let falcons do some kind of “flank March” where they can arrive out of deep strike and deploy their units. Or maybe let them move and disembark units as a kind of combat drop where they hover over an area and deploy their light infantry. Because they are more like an armed personnel carrier. Not a main battle tank like the fire prism.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Stormonu wrote:
On #1 for Vypers, I think allowing them to move in the Charge phase (as if it were the Move phase) if they didn't move in the Movement phase might work for them. Possibly as a 1 CP stratagem?

As for Falcon, perhaps give them back their "Pop-up" attack? In that if they don't move in the Movement phase they gain Ignores Cover (simulating them rising up, shooting, and then dropping back down). Lets you set them behind a building out of sight, and use this ability - however, since you didn't move the enemy can try to maneuver to a position to get a shot on the tank.


If you charge CP for a move after shooting, you're basically just creating a second Fire and Fade strat. As people don't seem to be willing to use Fire and Fade on Vypers now, I"m inclined to think that wouldn't do the trick. Letting vypers be one of the rare exceptions that can just JSJ as a built-in ability seems like it might be okay. At this point, they have a tried and true record of not being very desirable on their own. So making it easier to pop in and out of cover with one probably won't be that annoying.

The "pop up attack" is interesting. I worry that, despite the ability representing a feat of mobility, this encourages falcons to remain largely stationary. In our heads, we can picture falcon strafing runs, but on the table, your opponent is just going to see a stationary gunline tank. So there's some fluff/crunch dissonance there for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
warpedpig wrote:
Maybe give the falcon a power field. 5+ invuln. Or the pop up. Something to make it more survivable. It’s supposed to be the basic tank of the Eldar. But it isn’t exactly tanky. The wave serpent is tougher and it is an armored personnel carrier. Lol. That’s like having a battle tank that’s got weaker armor than a troop carrier. It’s dumb.
I disagree. Especially from an Aeldari point of view. You need the tank that is designed to get closer to the enemy to be tougher to protects its valuable passengers. A Battle tank that is meant to sit back an pew-pew is relying on that distance and it's speed to stay safe.
But I do agree that since the Falcon is also meant to carry pasengers, it should also have some kind of durability boost. Holofields used to be a staple of a Falcon so that needs to be brought back.
I also want to reiterate the NEED for Falcons to have the Pulsed Laser Discharge ability the same as Prisms. If nothing other than the name of the ability is the name of the Falcons primary weapons. Let the Pulse Laser shoot twice and suddenly Falcons are closer to on-par with Prisms. Give them Holofields and they are closer to as durable as Serpents.
Not as good as either, but good enough and more versatile.

I'm also on board with Vypers being able to move in the Charge phase even it not charging. It feels more like the old days when Eldar Jetbikes (even DE ones) could do that. It got too crazy in 7E when they gave Scatter lasers to Windriders, but I feel like giving the ability in moderation to units like Vypers could be a good way to make Vypers good again, give Eldar players that playstyle back without it being super abusable (because Vypers aren't as spammable or easy to hide)

-


My issue with trying to make falcons more like wave serpents with a durability/shooting boost is the same as my issue with trying to improve vypers by making them more similar to war walkers. If the problem is that two options are trying to fill the same niche, then improving the lesser option until it's the preferable option just reverses the problem or renders one unit redundant. I'd prefer to see the falcon perform a different job from the serpent rather than doing the same job differently.

I know you really like the pulsed laser rule for falcons, but I still feel that any rule that encourages a mobile battle tank to hold still is kind of unfluffy for eldar. We're supposed to be the speedy. We shouldn't be stuck in one place like leman russes. If you really wanted to do something similar, maybe have the rule kick in when targeting the closest enemy unit or a unit within 12" rather than when you hold still? It would encourage us to use our mobility rather than ignore it.

Agreed on the vypers, I think. If any unit in 40k deserves a JSJ, it's probably the perpetually-second stringer vypers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
warpedpig wrote:
Pulsed laser and Holofields would be great. The trouble is what about the troop transport ability? How to make that work well. I think let falcons do some kind of “flank March” where they can arrive out of deep strike and deploy their units. Or maybe let them move and disembark units as a kind of combat drop where they hover over an area and deploy their light infantry. Because they are more like an armed personnel carrier. Not a main battle tank like the fire prism.


The cloudstrike strat is named after an ability that used to be falcon-only. Giving falcons a built-in deepstrike would differentiate them from wave serpents quite a bit, but not being able to disembark the passengers until turn 3 is a pretty big limiter. Maybe there should be an eldar strat to disembark after a transport moves? (Probably don't allow them to move after disembarking to avoid automatic charges? )

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/17 05:57:53



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in se
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Sweden

Assult transport does not fit the aestetics of the falcon. It looks no less cumbersome to disembark than a rhino or chimera. That rule seems more fitting to ork trukks and land raiders.
More shooty, resilience or cheaper would probably be enough of a fix.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Back on the Falcon, perhaps the Pulsed Laser ability could have a qualifier that the Falcon has to move at least half its movement rate to get it?

Combined with a pop-up attack, this gives you two distinct ways of playing one terrain-heavy boards (or with no passengers), pop-up may be the way to go. With sparser terrain, the Falcon can zip around the board, unloading fire on the move. And I think giving the player options for which play style they prefer is a good thing.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Defending Guardian Defender




My fix for Vypers in my Corsairs Codex was to give them a -1 to hit modifier, but only if they move the maximum distance. The fluff always said "they rely on their speed for protection….blah blah blah"

To differentiate between the Hornet and the Vyper, instead of giving the Hornet a -1 to hit modifier when it advances, I gave it the ability to fire Rapid Fire and Assault Weapons with no penalty after advancing, and the option to fire Heavy Weapons after advancing, but at a -2 penalty, which I felt was more in line with its 7th edition incarnation.

Bottom line Vypers could easily be fixed with some sort of hit modifier for moving or advancing.

I feel that Falcons could be deal with in a similar fashion. Maybe give them a built-in Holo-Field or some sort of invulnerable save or hit modifier if they move their full distance. Also possibly give them a built in CTM or a rule that allows them to fire heavy weapons on the move at any target within range with no penalty.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I miss the days when moving 12 gave any unit a -1 to hit. And then 16 or 18” was -2. It had a table. And the super fast units were hard to hit. It just made sense
   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

Falcon Holofield: If this model moved more than X, it has 5++ against all attacks. Once per game, when your infantry unit within X of Falcon is targeted by shooting attack, you can declare Falcon would use its Holofield - that unit gains Cover until the end of shooting phase. Holofield then ceases to function for the rest of the game.

Vyper: add Battle Focus
Bladewind: Treat Heavy weapons on this unit as Assault weapons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/17 20:26:31


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Hope GW actually addresses a lot of the Eldar units that have been sucking. I love the look of the vyper but it’s just not good for the points.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Anhrathe wrote:

Bottom line Vypers could easily be fixed with some sort of hit modifier for moving or advancing.


If the to-hit modifier was the result of the vyper advancing, doesn't it kind of turn all the non-shuriken gun options into non-options? If a bright lance vyper is a bad investment because of survivability but the only way to give it survivability is to make it unable to shoot the lance, then we're kind of just moving the problem, aren't we?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadenuat wrote:

Vyper: add Battle Focus
Bladewind: Treat Heavy weapons on this unit as Assault weapons.


Unless you do something like that of course. Although then you're devaluing Saim-Hann somewhat.


Falcon Holofield: If this model moved more than X, it has 5++ against all attacks. Once per game, when your infantry unit within X of Falcon is targeted by shooting attack, you can declare Falcon would use its Holofield - that unit gains Cover until the end of shooting phase. Holofield then ceases to function for the rest of the game.


If a wave serpent is perceived as making the falcon irrelevant because it's more durable and shooty than the falcon, doesn't trying to fix the problem by upping the durability of the falcon just push those two units to compete more directly? If both the serpent and falcon are trying to fill the niche of "tough and shooty transports," then the one that's tougher and shootier will always be the better choice. Unless the falcon happens to be tougher and shootier and you value the extra transport capacity of a serpent over said toughness and shootiness.

What I"m saying is that I'd probably prefer for these two tanks to do different jobs rather than doing the same job differently. The holofield impacting infantry units is a neat twist, though it feels sort of like what the serpent shield is described as.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/17 22:23:54



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ru
Screaming Shining Spear




Russia, Moscow

Serpent is only more durable against shooting, a 5++ would make Falcon more durable against close combat attacks, which has its uses.

Now you could argue for something like ability to choose between more shooty falcon and more durable falcon, but imo a mediocrity would always lose to Serpent or Prisms.

Some sort of synergistic rule with unit embarked inside looks like the best choice to me. Another obvious pick would be disembarking after moving and shooting, but it would make it a prime target if you put expensive things in it.
Another thing Falcons could do is serve as drop pod for free.
Finally, they could have unique Stratagem for them. Now that one could do something like allowing unit to disembark after movement; or disembarking after Falcon deep struck.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/17 23:50:35


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





The disembark bonus works perfect for the falcon. And the vyper move shoot move is perfect for it. Simple. That way the falcons true synergy is with other units that is delivering right into action. Double whammy.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





warpedpig wrote:
The disembark bonus works perfect for the falcon. And the vyper move shoot move is perfect for it. Simple. That way the falcons true synergy is with other units that is delivering right into action. Double whammy.


It really doesn't work that well when the serpent should be the one delivering infantry effectively. The Falcon is a tank with transport capacity, not a transport with tank capabilities. Just give it the Pulsed Laser Discharge rule for it's Pulse laser.

Same really with the Vyper, it's a fairly cheap unit when taken with shuricannon/cats, and can be taken in squadrons. 52pts for cannon/cats vs 28pts for a similar armed windrider jetbike. So for basically less than x2 cost you get x3 wounds, +1T, +1S (this is negligible obviously), and is faster if taken in 3s. Granted, you are not getting the increase in firepower that the same points in windriders get you, but you can also swap out for a second cannon or add a different heavy weapon if running as Saim Hann and ignoring the movement issue. It's not a terrible platform.
   
 
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