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...is that they seem to break unwritten limitations that all 8E armies had until now. It's as if the entire ruleset of 8th Edition is bending for them, and for no one else.

Take the Infiltrators, for a start. They can deploy within 9 inches of the enemy... and then they can move... and then they can charge. Until now, in the current edition, no infiltrator-type units could reliably get a successful charge after deploying or deep-striking within 9 inches of the enemy. For example, the Craftworlds/Drukhari stratagem "Fire and Fade", which lets you move after shooting, has a specific rule that disallows charging after making this move. The designers of the game clearly intended to make it possible to charge from deep strike, but far too unlikely to rely upon it as part of your battle plan, even with stratagems. But Marine Infiltrators change that. They are, to my knowledge, the only unit in the game that can move and charge after being set up 9 inches away from the enemy.

Other examples: the Impulsor lets models move out of the vehicle and shoot after the vehicle has moved, and Drop Pods can deep strike on turn 1 despite the blanket "no deep strike on turn 1" rule. Again, Marines are given things that no one used to have in 8th Edition, even armies that specialize in dirty tricks (such as Eldar and Tau). I feel like this is a slippery slope that may considerably worsen the game's imbalance.

In part, I blame the loss of USR's for this. If units stuck as closely as possible to a score of USR's, it would make it easier to either set up clear and universal limitations ("A unit that moves after deep-striking cannot charge this round. No exceptions!") or, if needed, give a blanket update to a whole bunch of units by errata-ing the USR ("All deep-striking units are now allowed to both move and charge"). No more special snowflake units.

.

Infils cannot deploy within 9" of deployment zone either.....not just models. Besides, you are afraid of 22pt Infils that want to get into assault?

-Guardsman- wrote:
...is that they seem to break unwritten limitations that all 8E armies had until now. It's as if the entire ruleset of 8th Edition is bending for them, and for no one else.

Take the Infiltrators, for a start. They can deploy within 9 inches of the enemy... and then they can move... and then they can charge. Until now, in the current edition, no infiltrator-type units could reliably get a successful charge after deploying or deep-striking within 9 inches of the enemy. For example, the Craftworlds/Drukhari stratagem "Fire and Fade", which lets you move after shooting, has a specific rule that disallows charging after making this move. The designers of the game clearly intended to make it possible to charge from deep strike, but far too unlikely to rely upon it as part of your battle plan, even with stratagems. But Marine Infiltrators change that. They are, to my knowledge, the only unit in the game that can move and charge after being set up 9 inches away from the enemy.

Other examples: the Impulsor lets models move out of the vehicle and shoot after the vehicle has moved, and Drop Pods can deep strike on turn 1 despite the blanket "no deep strike on turn 1" rule. Again, Marines are given things that no one used to have in 8th Edition, even armies that specialize in dirty tricks (such as Eldar and Tau). I feel like this is a slippery slope that may considerably worsen the game's imbalance.

In part, I blame the loss of USR's for this. If units stuck as closely as possible to a score of USR's, it would make it easier to either set up clear and universal limitations ("A unit that moves after deep-striking cannot charge this round. No exceptions!") or, if needed, give a blanket update to a whole bunch of units by errata-ing the USR ("All deep-striking units are now allowed to both move and charge"). No more special snowflake units.

.

at the start of 8, many armies had acces to an infiltration stratagem, they were nerfed when it made alpha strikes too strong (electroprists + dragoon needing a 2/1" charge). Theres still a few units that can infiltrate outside of space marines : Nurglings and Stealth suits.

I do agree with you, marines have way too many rules / stratagems and they even take rules from other armies , removing the uniqueness of these armies ( For the greater good with ultramarines, neutron laser ++ on the executioner, flying tanks in general)

Pretty sure GSC have a way to deploy 9 away from an enemy then move d6 closer to the enemy and still charge. That or my normal GSC opponent has been cheating.

Maybe he is annoyed it means they can shut his tank line down at worse and at best make his target priority for him..

But the worse thing about nu marines is that we will see endless threads about nu marines envy...

Gw pls roll out codex 2.0 for other armies asap so we can move onto how OP those are.

I think he meant models with the old "infiltrate" USR.

3 Invictor Warsuits, a RG smash captain with a unit of Assault Centurions and a few scout squads deploying 9" away is dangerous. You can also move a few JP units 9" away too with a strat before turn 1. All those units can move, shoot and then charge. If it is Dawn of war you would be hard pressed to be able to deploy out of charge range even with screens unless you also have "infiltrate" units.

This is just the end result of what GW did in 6th, 7th, etc. As the edition continues they need to make more and more units/models/rules. And sadly GW's general policy on rules making is:

Choose one of the following:

1) This unit is allowed to re-roll _________.
2) This unit is allowed to ignore the main game rule: __________.

I think you'll find 90% of their rules are one of these two things. The more into the edition you go, the more this occurs. Look at 3rd-7th, built on essentially the same bones. Now consider the start of 3rd to the end of 7th. How many large game functions were pointless because by the end of 7th, so many armies/units ignored entire game rules (heck GW even decided to break the points limit you agreed to when deciding the size game you wanted to play...) I enjoy listening to Horus Heresy podcasts, but I do enjoy a sensible chuckle when they describe a weapon on a tank and then list it's seven or eight attributes. "This Mega-Vulcanizer Array also has rending, chopping, dicing, splaying, penetrating, hacking, coughing, sneezing, burning and destructor rules...". Almost all of these USRs, or weapon traits are just rules allowing a weapon to ignore any number of actual game mechanics.

We're more or less at that point with 40K now in 8th. To be an attractive sales model, the new units/books, etc. have to break progressively more and more rules because GW doesn't have much flexibility in game design.

Well, in the case of Marines & their drop pods the rules are simply reverting to what everyone had at the beginning of the edition. Nobody should've lost this option in the 1st place.

I had a game against Raven Guard and I had to ask for the supplement to read the rules myself as some of the stuff in there was honestly sounding like a fan-rulebook.

I'm fine with giving marines flavour but they didn't need to go this far.

 bullyboy wrote:
Infils cannot deploy within 9" of deployment zone either.....not just models. Besides, you are afraid of 22pt Infils that want to get into assault?

It's not a matter of balance, necessarily. Drop pods, Infiltrators, and Impulsors can all be fairly priced to take their advantages into account.

It's just lame when there's one army that gets to be good at everything, and ignore the rules that apply to everyone else. I'm fine with Marines being the easy-to-learn, jack-of-all-trades faction, but that means they're the last army that should get these kinds of 'tricks'. They already effectively ignore morale, the hover vehicles ignore being caught in melee, and they can depending on chapter ignore entire mechanics like movement penalties, fall-back penalties, or cover- they really don't need to violate basic game-wide limitations too.

I think GW is overcompensating to try and make elite armies more appealing. I also believe they haven’t done even a modicum of play testing any of the new marine releases or are throwing the original lessons initial 8E play testing out the window for half-assed rules that invariably sell more marine models.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I had to ask for the supplement to read the rules myself as some of the stuff in there was honestly sounding like a fan-rulebook.

This is basically how I felt when my opponent told me that each of his 37pts Aggressors would now fire 19 shots... after having advanced. At AP-1. For 0 CP. Next turn they were charging me with 4 S8 AP-3 DD3 attacks each.

In my Orks codex, there is a unit called "Meganobz" that costs 35pts a model for 4 shots at BS5+, AP0. And they have 3 S10 AP-3 DD3 attacks.

WTF is wrong with you GW ?

 Nym wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I had to ask for the supplement to read the rules myself as some of the stuff in there was honestly sounding like a fan-rulebook.

This is basically how I felt when my opponent told me that each of his 37pts Aggressors would now fire 19 shots... after having advanced. At AP-1. For 0 CP. Next turn they were charging me with 4 S8 AP-3 DD3 attacks each.

In my Orks codex, there is a unit called "Meganobz" that costs 35pts a model for 4 shots at BS5+, AP0. And they have 3 S10 AP-3 DD3 attacks.

WTF is wrong with you GW ?

Uh, for what it's worth, they don't get to double-fire if they advance. If they're Ultras they can double-fire if they move, but not if they advance.

 Argive wrote:


Gw pls roll out codex 2.0 for other armies asap so we can move onto how OP those are.

They rolled out CSM 2.0. How did that work for ya?

 catbarf wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Infils cannot deploy within 9" of deployment zone either.....not just models. Besides, you are afraid of 22pt Infils that want to get into assault?

It's not a matter of balance, necessarily. Drop pods, Infiltrators, and Impulsors can all be fairly priced to take their advantages into account.

It's just lame when there's one army that gets to be good at everything, and ignore the rules that apply to everyone else. I'm fine with Marines being the easy-to-learn, jack-of-all-trades faction, but that means they're the last army that should get these kinds of 'tricks'. They already effectively ignore morale, the hover vehicles ignore being caught in melee, and they can depending on chapter ignore entire mechanics like movement penalties, fall-back penalties, or cover- they really don't need to violate basic game-wide limitations too.

Yep, that's where I take issue, not whether the unit cost justifies it. For one thing, there's the uniqueness factor. And it's not as if this were an inconsequential thing: a reliable turn 1 charge out of "deep strike equivalent" is pretty huge, especially for a unit with considerable staying power. For another, Marines are not, by nature, the kind of army that should get all the dirty tricks. Their playing style should be comparatively straightforward.

.

This is how playing against the Tau felt in the past editions.

How can anyone blame the loss of USRs for anything when USRs are what created the invincible death starts of 7th edition?

People have terrible memories lol

 catbarf wrote:
Uh, for what it's worth, they don't get to double-fire if they advance. If they're Ultras they can double-fire if they move, but not if they advance.

That's something I didn't know ! I may misremember then, since his Aggressors didn't advance every turn (he was indeed UM). Still, my point stands : comparing UM Aggressors to [any klan] Meganobz makes me wanna cry. They have TWELVE TIMES the shooting power while also hitting harder in melee. This is madness.

 Ishagu wrote:
How can anyone blame the loss of USRs for anything when USRs are what created the invincible death starts of 7th edition?

People have terrible memories lol

This is not the point.

GW has bent some rules for Marines. Better make these rules refer to USR such that all army could eventually benefit from them.

I think its good when an army gets to have its 'special thing' that lets it ignore a normal rule or restriction. But when it gets pushed too far...

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I had a game against Raven Guard and I had to ask for the supplement to read the rules myself as some of the stuff in there was honestly sounding like a fan-rulebook.

I'm fine with giving marines flavour but they didn't need to go this far.

That's the downside, many are choosing Assault Centurions for this.....which are pretty much the least stealthy units you could possibly imagine, so it really breaks the fluff. I just can't bring myself to bring them into my RG force as they just don't "fit" thematically.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I had a game against Raven Guard and I had to ask for the supplement to read the rules myself as some of the stuff in there was honestly sounding like a fan-rulebook.

I'm fine with giving marines flavour but they didn't need to go this far.

That's the downside, many are choosing Assault Centurions for this.....which are pretty much the least stealthy units you could possibly imagine, so it really breaks the fluff. I just can't bring myself to bring them into my RG force as they just don't "fit" thematically.

The picture below seems to disagree.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Pretty sure GSC have a way to deploy 9 away from an enemy then move d6 closer to the enemy and still charge. That or my normal GSC opponent has been cheating.

Yeah it's a 3CP stratagem.

Not a blanket ability we get for free and on turn 1 lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nym wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I had to ask for the supplement to read the rules myself as some of the stuff in there was honestly sounding like a fan-rulebook.

This is basically how I felt when my opponent told me that each of his 37pts Aggressors would now fire 19 shots... after having advanced. At AP-1. For 0 CP. Next turn they were charging me with 4 S8 AP-3 DD3 attacks each.

In my Orks codex, there is a unit called "Meganobz" that costs 35pts a model for 4 shots at BS5+, AP0. And they have 3 S10 AP-3 DD3 attacks.

WTF is wrong with you GW ?

Insert "muh GW only focuses on marines because more people play space marines" argument here.

Yep, they are definitely not doing anything to tip that scale.

every edition.

Always.

They're not always the army everyone starts with because they're in every starter box creating sunk-cost in people's brains.

They're not the army that gets the most releases and hype by a mile.

They're not the army consistently given special-snowflake rules only they get that no other faction has an equivalent to.

Those would be silly reasons. It's obvious that everyone just naturally loves marines 50 times more than every other faction in the game!

As I said, they had few special rules.

Now they have all.

 Ishagu wrote:
How can anyone blame the loss of USRs for anything when USRs are what created the invincible death starts of 7th edition?

People have terrible memories lol

At least in my area USRs were not considered the main issue in 7th, that would be formations aka giving units free rules that radically change their performance and make costing a unit or army impossible.

GW basically is back at the same concept at this point with the new marine book being the poster child for bad game design, bad hobby craft, and over all making any attempt to balance the game impossible.

-Guardsman- wrote:
..
Take the Infiltrators, for a start. They can deploy within 9 inches of the enemy... and then they can move... and then they can charge. Until now, in the current edition, no infiltrator-type units could reliably get a successful charge after deploying or deep-striking within 9 inches of the enemy.
.

Couldnt scouts do this whole edition? Am I missing something?

The only marine army that can do what your say more effectively is Ravenguard.

All other marine armies dont play that style typically although they can be built to do it but it may not be that effective.

 Orodhen wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I had a game against Raven Guard and I had to ask for the supplement to read the rules myself as some of the stuff in there was honestly sounding like a fan-rulebook.

I'm fine with giving marines flavour but they didn't need to go this far.

That's the downside, many are choosing Assault Centurions for this.....which are pretty much the least stealthy units you could possibly imagine, so it really breaks the fluff. I just can't bring myself to bring them into my RG force as they just don't "fit" thematically.

The picture below seems to disagree.

Spoiler:

That picture shows nothing. It has bikes, dreadnoughts, etc....where Centurions would fit. You obviously missed the part of my post where I mentioned "my RG force" where they don't fit. Are you going to tell me that Centurions are stealthy like vanguard units? I'm sure that those Centurions didn't "infiltrate" into that battle....which is what is happening on the tabletop.

Agree with the op. But that's been the trend for every edition since I started in 3rd. I finally just learned to roll with it. Meaning when my marines arent gak I play them! Sucks but what goes around..
Pretty soon csm will get what seems like a badass Dex along with BAs and those players will rejoice. Then they'll realize it's just the testing grounds for the real 9th edition dexes. Rinse. Repeat.

I had wonder recently if the 8th ediition rules are so basic, that is getting in the way of the game itself a lot. They have a lot of ideas but that the game just cannot handle them.

Sorta putting themselves into a worse position that where in even before hand. Honestly i think 40k just needs a rewrite and a sitdown on where they want things to go, and what they want to achieve.
Some of there rules make the units a bit of a joke, and space marines themselves are rather bland due to all the supermen level ups they get.

The supplements show an inherent problem with costing ifentical unit across 6 different factions...

Is an IH vehicle (any vehicle really) worth the same as a vanilla vehicle?

This is an easy example but it can be applied to kraken vs non kraken genestealers, old ynnari everything vs cwe vanilla everything and the list goes on.


Points dont fix everything. I am a big prononent of that. But with no attempt at internal balance its one of the things that should be adressed.