What units do you want to see improved or changed, and why?

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**Stormonu**

Not so much a case of proposing actual fixes, but what units or models do you feel are underperforming and why?

As an example, I would choose Lictors. They’re massively large, chameleonic hunters that, to me, should scare enemy characters (and the players who own those characters). But it gets shot up before it gets close, and even when it gets close, it doesn’t do very much to an enemy of any significance.

**Darsath**

The Monolith. For such an iconic unit, it's really failing to live up to its reputation.

**Gadzilla666**

Raptors. Everyone who actually plays them generally use them as a plasma delivery system. They should be a nasty deep strike unit. Give them the night raptor's onslaught rule from hh.

**Karol**

I wouldnt know where to start.

**An Actual Englishman**

Ork buggies, bikes, burnas and of course the Stompa.

**Gadzilla666**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Ork buggies, bikes, burnas and of course the Stompa.

Yeah definitely the stompa. Way overpriced for what it does.

**Vaktathi**

Leman Russ Vanquisher. A dedicated anti-tank unit that has a lower average damage output against heavy armor than the dedicated purely anti-infantry Punisher variant. It's simply nonfunctional in its role, it is the worst anti-tank Russ option despite ostensibly being designed specifically for that.

**Giantwalkingchair**

Celestians. A unit completely lost and lacking identity. Fingers crossed the new dex fixes this.

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

Stormonu wrote:
As an example, I would choose Lictors. They’re massively large, chameleonic hunters that, to me, should scare enemy characters (and the players who own those characters). But it gets shot up before it gets close, and even when it gets close, it doesn’t do very much to an enemy of any significance.

I know it isn't the same, but Lictors are those scary monsters in Kill Team. I only say this because the unit I would like to see improved is...

...Terminators. Specifically Chaos Terminators (I got nothing against loyalist ones, I don't really know what issues they have beyond being terminators) because that is what I use both in Kill Team and full 40k and in either case I feel like I am throwing away points. A lot of points that I only managed to get them to work one time in a small game of 40k when Warp Time, Prescience and 1st turn deep strikes were possible (you remember that combo right?). I find it unfortunate that terminators even in Kill Team are a liability when many so-so to bad units in full 40k can at least shine in Kill Team. Even on the loyalist side in Kill Team, I think a company veteran with a storm shield and melee weapon of choice holds up almost as well as a terminator with the same load out for far less points. I know I felt better with my company vet with power sword and storm shield locked in combat with my opponent's terminator with thunder hammer and storm shield since neither were going anywhere soon and that allowed me more board control with my other units. Move to full 40k and there are so many anti-armor weapons out there to deal with tanks, it sometimes feels like terminators barely stand a chance.

**Not Online!!!**

Karol wrote:
I wouldnt know where to start.

Well some dexes have units that need improving, and other dexes just need improvements overall.

Probably the worst exemple out of the dex therefore?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Stormonu wrote:
As an example, I would choose Lictors. They’re massively large, chameleonic hunters that, to me, should scare enemy characters (and the players who own those characters). But it gets shot up before it gets close, and even when it gets close, it doesn’t do very much to an enemy of any significance.

I know it isn't the same, but Lictors are those scary monsters in Kill Team. I only say this because the unit I would like to see improved is...

...Terminators. Specifically Chaos Terminators (I got nothing against loyalist ones, I don't really know what issues they have beyond being terminators) because that is what I use both in Kill Team and full 40k and in either case I feel like I am throwing away points. A lot of points that I only managed to get them to work one time in a small game of 40k when Warp Time, Prescience and 1st turn deep strikes were possible (you remember that combo right?). I find it unfortunate that terminators even in Kill Team are a liability when many so-so to bad units in full 40k can at least shine in Kill Team. Even on the loyalist side in Kill Team, I think a company veteran with a storm shield and melee weapon of choice holds up almost as well as a terminator with the same load out for far less points. I know I felt better with my company vet with power sword and storm shield locked in combat with my opponent's terminator with thunder hammer and storm shield since neither were going anywhere soon and that allowed me more board control with my other units. Move to full 40k and there are so many anti-armor weapons out there to deal with tanks, it sometimes feels like terminators barely stand a chance.

You realise csm termites are one of the few competitive units left in the csm dex right?

**captain collius**

Tau: Ghostkeel I love the model I'd love for it be more than a distraction
Dark Angels: Deathwing Knights... We just need to be more survivable

**AnomanderRake**

I'd like to see (insert any unit in the game) re-balanced and improved (in any way) post-release rather than just seeing GW release (new unit that replaces or invalidates the last unit) over and over again.

**Karhedron**

The Avatar of Khaine. Back in 2nd edition, this guy could go toe-to-toe with a Bloodthirster! I would like to see him get a new kit on par with the plastic greater Daemons and stats to match.

**AnomanderRake**

Karhedron wrote:
The Avatar of Khaine. Back in 2nd edition, this guy could go toe-to-toe with a Bloodthirster! I would like to see him get a new kit on par with the plastic greater Daemons and stats to match.

Please no. I don't want a $150 12"-tall Avatar that dies to lascannon fire top of turn one every game because he's impossible to hide and doesn't have character protection.

**fraser1191**

Hmm..... rust stalkers

Yes. These guys can really only go after infantry. Which is fine, but as is they are just fishing for sixes against anything with a 4+ or better.

So it's simple. Either ap on the blades or more attacks to drown units in.

Or the more complicated solution. Reduce the overall lethality of the game so I don't expect as much from a unit

**Karol**

Well some dexes have units that need improving, and other dexes just need improvements overall.

Probably the worst exemple out of the dex therefore?

I still wouldn't know what to pick. The worse unit in the codex, the unit that if fixed maybe would have gave a chance at a working list, but isn't bad as the worse unit in the book. And how class units that don't work, because they lack synergies with other units. Specialy without knowing how over all army rules were to be updated, it just makes my head hurt. Closet thing I could come up with everything, but that is hardly an anwser to the question which one unit is to be fixed.

**AnomanderRake**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Karol wrote:
I wouldnt know where to start.

Well some dexes have units that need improving, and other dexes just need improvements overall.

Probably the worst exemple out of the dex therefore?

It does depend some on why it's the worst unit in the book. The reasons GK Purgators are kind of crap are intimately tied into the reasons why GK in general are kind of crap (forced to buy expensive melee weapons with only 1 Attack, forced to be psykers for little to no practical gain, Tactical Marine statline), for instance.

**ERJAK**

Based on historical precedent, everything in the Sisters of battle's new codex except dominions.

**Hellebore**

All Eldar factions.

But specifically aspect warriors, exarchs, Phoenix lords, warlocks, knights and titans. And catapults

**Kanluwen**

Strictly Guard, and sticking to a relatively few amount of units:
A) Infantry Squads
Guard Infantry Squads lose Heavy Weapon Teams, instead gaining "Heavy Weapons" ala the Genestealer Cults and Chaos Cultists. Single, man-portable weapons that could realistically be used by a squad on the move. Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Lasguns(amusingly enough, these are a thing in the fluff! They're lasguns with heavier power cells and barrels to allow for longer firing times and more power), and Missile Launchers would be the 'go to' options here.
Special Weapons remain the same or can be swapped for a second Heavy.

B) Conscript Squads
Go to a 6+ save, lose <Regiment>, get Autoguns instead of Lasguns, gain "Officio Prefectus" keyword to synergize again with Commissars while not getting benefits from Orders or anything else. "Raw Recruits" gets reworked to become something akin to:

When friendly Imperium faction units within 6" take morale tests, the Conscript Squads must also take a Morale test.

It would make it so potentially the Conscripts are losing models from other units losing them.

C) Heavy Weapon Squads/Teams
The individual teams become beefier, and effectively are a 'squadron' of characters styled deal.
The following special rules are added:

Base of Fire
A Heavy Weapons Team may not fire their heavy weapon unless they have remained stationary for the duration of the turn. When firing at a target that is over half of the range of the weapon, they may make an additional attack with the weapon. For weapons with a randomly generated attack value, add 1 to the attack value instead.

Entrenched Position
Heavy Weapons Teams that have remained stationary for a team are counted as being in cover, even in the open. For the purposes of shooting attacks, Heavy Weapons Teams are treated as having the Character rule and cannot be targeted unless a model has a rule that allows for it.

**godardc**

Kanluwen wrote:
Strictly Guard, and sticking to a relatively few amount of units:

B) Conscript Squads
Go to a 6+ save, lose <Regiment>, get Autoguns instead of Lasguns, gain "Officio Prefectus" keyword to synergize again with Commissars while not getting benefits from Orders or anything else. "Raw Recruits" gets reworked to become something akin to:

When friendly Imperium faction units within 6" take morale tests, the Conscript Squads must also take a Morale test.

It would make it so potentially the Conscripts are losing models from other units losing them.

That makes no sense why would they be equiped differently ? They are just raw recruits so being less competent is somehow logical but they have to have the same gear

**Saturmorn Carvilli**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Terminators. Specifically Chaos Terminators (I got nothing against loyalist ones, I don't really know what issues they have beyond being terminators) because that is what I use both in Kill Team and full 40k and in either case I feel like I am throwing away points. A lot of points that I only managed to get them to work one time in a small game of 40k when Warp Time, Prescience and 1st turn deep strikes were possible (you remember that combo right?). I find it unfortunate that terminators even in Kill Team are a liability when many so-so to bad units in full 40k can at least shine in Kill Team. Even on the loyalist side in Kill Team, I think a company veteran with a storm shield and melee weapon of choice holds up almost as well as a terminator with the same load out for far less points. I know I felt better with my company vet with power sword and storm shield locked in combat with my opponent's terminator with thunder hammer and storm shield since neither were going anywhere soon and that allowed me more board control with my other units. Move to full 40k and there are so many anti-armor weapons out there to deal with tanks, it sometimes feels like terminators barely stand a chance.

You realize csm termites are one of the few competitive units left in the csm dex right?

Apparently not (not being sarcastic here). I haven't played my CSM army in a while (before Bolter Discipline). Last time I did, I wasn't overly impressed with my terminators performance. It wasn't bad, but I was wanting little more out of them for the points I spent on them. I have brought out my Black Legion again and plan to play it pretty soon, but I still don't see how my two 5-man terminator squads are going to be that much of a boon for my army yet. I don't know, maybe I loaded them up with too many expensive weapons (I do like my power fists and combi-meltas) to be as strong as you say.

What's the current setup and strategy with Chaos Terminators?

**vipoid**

I'm just going to quote myself from a thread a while back:

vipoid wrote:
I'll nominate the DE HQs - especially the Archon and Succubus.

Archons:
- Vastly overcosted for what they bring (they're about on par with a Canoness, yet cost ~25pts more).
- Gimmicky, unreliable save and no longer has any option to swap it out for a basic 4++.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space and stupid minimum squad sizes.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on a special weapon and a heavy weapon.
- Very poor melee ability, doubly so for an HQ that just lost it's only decent shooting weapon.
- Passable ranged ability . . . but only if you use an Index (i.e. non-Codex) option.
- 0 synergy with his own subfaction.
- 0 ability to buff other subfactions.
- Worthless aura that's completely incompatible with the entire playstyle of DE.
- As mentioned above, the Archon has no mobility option outside of a transport. However, his aura isn't allowed to extend outside of a transport.
- What's more, other Kabal units want to be in transports as well, and even if the Archon is on foot his aura still isn't allowed to affect units inside nearby transports.
- The Archon's aura doesn't even affect units inside his own transport.
- Hell, the Archon can't even buff *himself* when inside a transport. This, I remind you, from the leader of a faction that is supposed to have trained for millennia in the art of fighting from transports.
- Even outside of a transport, the Archon's aura is completely useless on his own Court.

Succubi:
- Dedicated melee HQ... yet has the fewest attacks of our HQs.
- In spite of being a melee HQ, her melee presence is laughably bad - not least because of how horrendously awful the Glaive is. Sorry but 4 attacks at S5 AP-3 with a miserably 1 damage is not scaring anyone. And to make matters worse, GW thought this weapon so unbelievably powerful that it needed a -1 to hit. That's how much they hate the idea of our HQs being even remotely good.
- Hope you're playing Red Grief so that you can actually access the only worthwhile melee weapon for your melee HQ. Also, just to reiterate this point, I think it says something about the quality of our melee weapons that a Power Fist is worthy of being an artefact.
- No mobility options beyond a transport.
- Can't ride in a Venom with anything except Court of the Archon or other HQs due to lack of space.
- If they ride in a Raider, then you can't take 2 5-man squads with them and 9-man units lose out on at least one special weapon.
- Piddling aura.
- As with the Archon, has no ability to buff units outside of her subfaction.
- However, she is also unable to buff some units within her subfaction - namely Beasts (incidentally, the only fast unit she could potentially keep up with).
- Because of aforementioned lack of mobility, isn't able to keep up with Hellions or Reavers to buff them.

And what makes these so much worse is that they're mandatory. For as godawful as Land Raiders are, Marine players at least have the option of ignoring them entirely. DE players don't have that luxury because these two are the only available HQs for Kabal and Cult armies, respectively (outside of Drazhar, who somehow manages to be even worse). A Kabal Battalion has to include two of the useless bastards.

(Note: As you've probably guessed, the last part was written before Drazhar's recent update. The overall point still stands though.)

**Kanluwen**

godardc wrote:

That makes no sense why would they be equiped differently ? They are just raw recruits so being less competent is somehow logical but they have to have the same gear

If you want the fluff reason?
It's because "Conscripts" covers everything from locally sourced recruits to actual Guardsmen undergoing their indoctrination/training.
Generally, they get a flak vest rather than the whole 'suit' of armor(hence the lesser save) and whatever weapons can be locally sourced.

Mechanically, it allows for a rework of the whole damn lasgun finally. Plus, tired of whining about Conscripts being "too good!".

**The Newman**

As a Loyalist Marine player I feel like I shouldn't complain about my units since I just got such a big pile of buffs, and yet...

Assault Marines are still pretty terrible, which is sad for such an iconic unit.

Predators are still in a funky place, very hard to justify compared to a Vindicator, Stalker, or Invictor.

Terminators are a victim of their unit size I think. They wouldn't compete well with three-man Centurion and Aggressor squads even if you could take them in 3-man 120ish point blocks, but it wouldn't hurt anything.

**ccs**

Karol wrote:
I wouldn't know where to start.

I would suggest starting on P.62 of your Codex.

Or at least with the units that you actually own.

**Wolf_in_Human_Shape**

Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut. My favorite unit in the game now relegated to purgatory.

I'd love to see the unit pose a serious melee threat, get a few extra inches of movement. Something. And have access to thunder hammers.

**ccs**

Kanluwen wrote:
Mechanically, it allows for a rework of the whole damn lasgun finally. Plus, tired of whining about Conscripts being "too good!".

So because you're not able to handle other people bitching the unit needs to be changed??

**Amishprn86**

DE Reavers should go back to flyby = auto hits, or HoW hits. I heavily miss 5th and 7th Reavers, so fun to play. Now they are just 2 wound wyches... boring.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Lord, Sorcerer and Possessed in DG Codex need T5 and FNP.

Plague Hulk needs to be 50-70 points less.
Greater Blight Drone needs to be 80 points less.