Ogor Mawtribes Tactics

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**Stux**

Hi all!

So, Ogors got a Battletome recently.

Overall, they don't look like a top tier army still, but they do have a few neat tricks.

To open up the discussion, I'll start by talking about one of the biggest additions - the Mawtribes. Specifically going to start with the Gutbuster ones. Of course you can take any mixture of Gutbuster and Beastclaw in the army now, and many abilities affect all of them, but the tribes are clearly designed to support one side more than the other.

It's also worth noting that if you choose a Mawtribe then you MUST take that tribe's artefact and trait. If you do so, then the ONLY way to get any of the 24 generic Artefacts is by also taking a battalion, and there is no way to get any other trait. At some point it's probably worth having a discussion about when, if ever, it makes sense to not take a tribe to access that host of traits - as the tribe abilities are all quite strong.

Meatfist

Spoiler:

Underguts

Spoiler:

Bloodgullet

Spoiler:

**Alkaline_Hound**

Do you recon that there is any point in glutons since underguts leadbelchers have a higher damage output in general and are way more flexible?

**Jackal90**

The forced artefacts and traits etc are the new norm for sub factions it seems.
Any army that has its own faction options now seems to have this as a new standard.
While it is limiting, the benefits often outweigh the loss of these.

I do feel like battalions are over costed though.
Most new books have average at best battalions that give very little for what you get.
On the flip side, unique hero’s can technically ignore this anyway as they can’t be altered.

**Stux**

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Do you recon that there is any point in glutons since underguts leadbelchers have a higher damage output in general and are way more flexible?

That's a very good question. In Underguts, if you have a Tyrant as General, then I would say Gluttons don't have much of a place.

If you run a Frostlord on Stonehorn or similar though, you may want to give them mass of scars and then you need Gluttons (or Mournfangs) for battleline. But at the point you're spending that many points on stuff that isn't Leadbelchers or Ironblasters is there any point running Underguts anyway?

Side note: don't you think it's weird that getting pistol whipped by a cannon is -1 rend, but those big scimitars that Gluttons carry have no rend..? I feel like if you swapped that around both units would make a bit more sense.

**Alkaline_Hound**

Nah, blunt weapons tend to be really good against armor so it makes sense that leadbelchers have a better rend.

**Stux**

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Nah, blunt weapons tend to be really good against armor so it makes sense that leadbelchers have a better rend.

Yeah thinking about it slashing weapons like scimitars are about the worst against heavy armour. I'm thinking of piercing weapons.

Still, from a balance perspective Leadbelchers should be more or a tradeoff than they currently are.

**NinthMusketeer**

It's better not to think in detail about exact weapon profiles; they rarely make any sort of sense.

**Alkaline_Hound**

Having thought about gluttons they do have two advantages over leadbelchers, one in squads of 12 they are massively cheaper per ogre, and two they have the banners which give them some useful gimmicks. Then while I think leadbelchers are still the better generalist choise, I wonder if running 12 gluttons with iron fists will work well as a sort of tarpit that punches back, since on average each ogre will deal three mortal wounds before dying, and they can be buffed further with a slaughtermaster.

**Stux**

I'm not sure where you're getting 3 mortal wounds per Ogor on average...

Against no rend, itll take 6 saves to kill the Ogor on average so if you fail 4 saves on average you will pass 2, of which 1 on average will cause a mortal wound.

Against rend of -1, it'll take 4.8 saves to kill the Ogor on average so if you fail 4 saves on average you will pass 0.8, which will be a 6 so 0.8 mortal wounds.

Against rend of -2 or better, the Ogor will die in 4 saves (of course), those 4 failed saves will include 0.67 6s, so 0.67 mortal wounds total.

**mokoshkana**

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Do you recon that there is any point in glutons since underguts leadbelchers have a higher damage output in general and are way more flexible?

Huh? Where are you getting this from? Unbuffed, they do about the same damage in general. As for leadbelchers having better versatility, I'd say that is subjective. Leadbelchers have shooting and better MSU opportunities, but Gluttons can reroll charges natively and/or ignore shooting damage on 6+ in addition to being 80 points cheaper for a max unit and either having melee attacks that explode on 6's or dealing mortal wounds back on saves of 6.

**NinthMusketeer**

Point-for-point one leadbelcher is a better buy than one glutton, though not by much. However, gluttons have a horde unit discount, are generic battleline, and have music/banner bonuses at 6+ unit size. The latter in particular is what drives up the cost of the unit above what it's basic stats alone would indicate.

**nels1031**

To piggyback off this thread, a question or two:

Ironguts. Outside of the Tyrant bodyguard battalion, is there a point in going heavy with them? I was planning on doing a small model count army of the more elite Gutbuster units, but Gluttons seem to be such a better bang for your buck, so that plan is kind of in limbo now and I may as well just do a more standard Mawtribe army, centered around the seemingly useful Tyrant/Irongut battalion(of which you only need 1 unit of Irongut.) Ironguts look like more consistent damage, but Gluttons have more synergies with other units, so at best its a wash, which means its probably best to stick with Gluttons. Is that an accurate assessment?

Do you think that the Tyrants Gutguard battalion is worth it? Seems useful to me as it can make your Tyrant more durable.

**Stux**

Agree with your assessment - Ironguts don't really bring enough benefit to justify inclusion, outside of Battalion requirements. Especially if you're running Bloodgullet or Meatfist who directly improve Gluttons. And then there's no point running Underguts either unless you're going fairly hard on Leadbelchers.

As for Battalions, I'm not convinced Tyrant's Gutguard is that great. For me, the only Gutbusters Battalion worth taking in its own merits is Butcher's Band. Put most of your army in it, and get some nice steady healing across the battle.

**NinthMusketeer**

Generally speaking the gutguard battalion isn't worth it unless you are running a very niche build--for 40 more points you could just bring another tyrant.

Ironguts are absolutely worth it. They are 55 points each as opposed to a glutton at 40. For that they get a 4+ save and a much, much better weapon profile. For starters it's 2" range, meaning they can swing in two ranks, a considerable advantage. Then they have rend and a damage characteristic of 3.

A unit of four gluttons deals ~8 damage on average against a 5+ save. A unit of four ironguts deals ~14 and only needs half the frontage. If it weren't for model count being needed for objectives ironguts would replace gluttons entirely.

**Stux**

I know the better save helps, but I really worry about Ironguts cost per wound. If you're running a minimum unit or not much more you'll probably get away with it, but if you're basing your whole army around them I'd be really concerned about how many wounds you're bringing.

Could always counterbalance that somewhat by taking a blob of Gnoblars too of course.

**NinthMusketeer**

Having used them extensively, I would say the key is MSU. A 4-man unit is already enough offense to beat the snot out of most things, and by having multiple units it allows damage to be spread out (and can be subsequently healed with the multiple aoe heal options ogors now have). Having, say, four units of four as the main line is 64 wounds on a 4+ save for 880 points, and each of those units is a massive offensive threat with high mobility because you can position them in a 2x2 square. Larger enemy units will have difficulty just getting models in range to attack.

The problem is you won't capture objectives that way. Thus, gluttons.

**Alkaline_Hound**

I got the three mortal wounds per ogre result by doing calculations while sleepy. Anyways 12 fatties who can heal surprisingly fast and inflict mortal wounds on anyone getting close sounds by no means pleasant, so I'd imagine that this sort of anvil will become mainstay in ogre armies.

I'll also take the discussion about gnoblars into this thread since if there will be any future big beautiful man enthusiasts in the future they will look here. What are some nice synergies that you think gnoblars have? I think running 60 as a screen in front of ironguts is probably a good idea, as they complement each other well.

**NinthMusketeer**

Gnoblars are a pretty standard chaff unit. Hit em with the command ability from a tyrant and they're good to go.

**Alkaline_Hound**

What do you think of icebrow hunters and sabertooths btw? They are decently cheap and let you deepstrike charge reliably anywhere.

**NinthMusketeer**

You said it. Being able to deep strike then charge with +3 to the roll is fantastic, even if the unit doing so isn't. I wouldn't bring sabertooths without a hunter though, both for the outflank and the bravery boost.

**tedbpb**

I think sabretooths are going to be good charge blockers like they were in fantasy. Beyond that I dont feel that a hunter or sabertooth are a scary enough deep strike unit.

**NinthMusketeer**

Forcing a nasty shooter to target a 40-point unit because it's the only thing in melee seems pretty useful to me. Or eating a support character. Or grabbing an unguarded objective.

**Alkaline_Hound**

Paying for the hunter for 40 points surprise doesn't seem very efficient. However I'd imagine that our plus sized huntsman can remain behind and threaten enemy objectives and remain a nuisance to the opponent.

**NinthMusketeer**

Indeed. His main damage is from shooting anyways, which he can do some of when he shows up.

**Alkaline_Hound**

The issue is though that he is quite squishy for his points, so the moment the enemy shooting unit gets rid of the tigers if our huntsman is in range he is toast. Maybe it would be better to bring in a larger tiger pack or have him wait outside of los and then on turn three "magnet" other sabertooth units in since the ability does have a tremendous range.

**NinthMusketeer**

He really doesn't have to be all that effective. He just shows up and says "you have to deal with me" and the enemy must devote resources to do so.

**Alkaline_Hound**

Wouldn't a gorger do the same thing for much cheaper?

**NinthMusketeer**

The hunter has the advantage that he can shoot, can bring sabertusks with the aforementioned +3 to charge, and is a hero which can use the generic command abilities (re-roll charge being particularly relevant). The gorger meanwhile is cheap, expendable, and straightforward. And it pleases me to no end that lists have a place for using one, the other, neither, or even both.

**Stux**

His shooting is really very good given everything else he brings too. It's not far off an Ironblaster (unless you have the Underguts command ability in play of course).

**Alkaline_Hound**

Bruh I might be reading a different profile but he does like one wound per turn on average. I suppose being able to toss one wound at the enemy backline is nice, but I think there are better places to spend all those points. I'll have to try him and see if my "magnet" tactic works.

Which models are you guys using for your tigers? The offical models look like toys 'r us knock offs.