Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Only reliable charge with Luchguard is Obyron/Zahndrekh and either a veil of darkness or the Deceiver or both. If you do both you can get a second reliable charge in at the target of your choice, should you survive round 1

A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.

elook wrote:
A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.

It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.

 vict0988 wrote:

elook wrote:
A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.

It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.

You can't tie up a Knight with warriors unless I'm misunderstanding you. Also, a Knight stands a good chance of wiping a 10 man warrior unit anyway. I actually can't think of many things in the meta that you'd really want/be able to tie up with warriors. Eldar/DE everything has fly. Tau have a wall of fire warriors'/drones and fly, guard don't take their tanks anymore, knights just fall back, and orks would be overjoyed that you got closer to them. I guess a leviathan dread or telemon?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
Only reliable charge with Luchguard is Obyron/Zahndrekh and either a veil of darkness or the Deceiver or both. If you do both you can get a second reliable charge in at the target of your choice, should you survive round 1

78% is fairly reliable. Issue is it eats up lots of resources(warlord trait, relic, possibly cp), is for one unit so chaff will be issue and you have only tough or good damage dealers as option, not both, and both with high point cost

 vict0988 wrote:

elook wrote:
A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.

It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.

I haven't personally tried it but I'd definitely like to give it a go. Try get as many threats as possible into the opponent's face using Wraiths to advance/charge and protect the teleported C'Tan on one flank whilst Monolith and Lychguard take the other. Destroyers press up with small squads of Immortals and HQ to hold objectives. Sounds great but who knows.

elook wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

elook wrote:
A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.

It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.

I haven't personally tried it but I'd definitely like to give it a go. Try get as many threats as possible into the opponent's face using Wraiths to advance/charge and protect the teleported C'Tan on one flank whilst Monolith and Lychguard take the other. Destroyers press up with small squads of Immortals and HQ to hold objectives. Sounds great but who knows.

Definitely, the moment he gets to pick you apart piece by piece you're doomed, particularly with this gimmick.

RogueApiary wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

elook wrote:
A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.

It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.

You can't tie up a Knight with warriors unless I'm misunderstanding you. Also, a Knight stands a good chance of wiping a 10 man warrior unit anyway. I actually can't think of many things in the meta that you'd really want/be able to tie up with warriors. Eldar/DE everything has fly. Tau have a wall of fire warriors'/drones and fly, guard don't take their tanks anymore, knights just fall back, and orks would be overjoyed that you got closer to them. I guess a leviathan dread or telemon?

I was saying that Warriors are useless against Knights unlike Lychguard which can theoretically put the hurt on one. You can simplify the meta to the top tables, but you will find tonnes of non-flying shooting units in most metas I believe. It's a much smaller investment with a decent chance of a large pay-out. Between the GA and Warriors in RF range and the rest of your army you'll have a good chance of engaging an enemy shooting unit turn 1. Sacrificing a unit of Warriors, while jumping back with the GA to force your opponent to Da Jump his Lootas instead of 30 Boyz would be pretty good. The question is what can a Monolith and 10 Lychguard do that 10 Warriors in a GA cannot do for far fewer pts and 1 less CP?

elook wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

elook wrote:
A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.

It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.

I haven't personally tried it but I'd definitely like to give it a go. Try get as many threats as possible into the opponent's face using Wraiths to advance/charge and protect the teleported C'Tan on one flank whilst Monolith and Lychguard take the other. Destroyers press up with small squads of Immortals and HQ to hold objectives. Sounds great but who knows.

Not competive but could be fun for casual games. Lychguards with 78% ds charge, monolith plus praetorians and advance and charge wraiths. Lots of pressure 1st turn. Will be low on troops and at wivl be an issue though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

elook wrote:
A good way to get Lychguard in CC turn 1 is using The Deceiver to teleport the Monolith 12" away, then use Dimensional Corridor for 1 CP to get Lychguard 9". They then can move 5" with a 4" charge. You can still have 1 or 2 units in the Monolith to disembark for turn 2. Perhaps something to assist the Lychguard.

It's too expensive, you are breaking the bank and putting your Monolith at extreme risk. You'd be better off shoving a Mephrit Ghost Ark with Warriors into your opponent's face, depending on whether your playgroup will count those Warriors as having been Deceivered, I don't see a reason why but I have seen one small tournament rule that way. Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks.

You can't tie up a Knight with warriors unless I'm misunderstanding you. Also, a Knight stands a good chance of wiping a 10 man warrior unit anyway. I actually can't think of many things in the meta that you'd really want/be able to tie up with warriors. Eldar/DE everything has fly. Tau have a wall of fire warriors'/drones and fly, guard don't take their tanks anymore, knights just fall back, and orks would be overjoyed that you got closer to them. I guess a leviathan dread or telemon?

I was saying that Warriors are useless against Knights unlike Lychguard which can theoretically put the hurt on one. You can simplify the meta to the top tables, but you will find tonnes of non-flying shooting units in most metas I believe. It's a much smaller investment with a decent chance of a large pay-out. Between the GA and Warriors in RF range and the rest of your army you'll have a good chance of engaging an enemy shooting unit turn 1. Sacrificing a unit of Warriors, while jumping back with the GA to force your opponent to Da Jump his Lootas instead of 30 Boyz would be pretty good. The question is what can a Monolith and 10 Lychguard do that 10 Warriors in a GA cannot do for far fewer pts and 1 less CP?

Bolded part suggests warriors would be used against knights where even if they survive the charge all they archieved was free kills for the knight.

And how warriors are supposed to get to combat against lootas with at least 60 grots front and possibly boyz mob as well? Orks protect lootas against t1 charges by stuff like blood angels and their 3d6" ds charges or kraken stealer swarm. How necrons are supposed to do that?

elook wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights but melee is as much about stopping shooting as actually killing and Warriors should survive Overwatch and a few melee attacks

Bolded part suggests warriors would be used against knights where even if they survive the charge all they archieved was free kills for the knight.

And how warriors are supposed to get to combat against lootas with at least 60 grots front and possibly boyz mob as well? Orks protect lootas against t1 charges by stuff like blood angels and their 3d6" ds charges or kraken stealer swarm. How necrons are supposed to do that?

No it specifically means the opposite, "those 10 Warriors might not hurt Knights" means that the Warriors won't do anything to Knights "but melee is as much about stopping shooting as..." means that it is okay to not be able to kill a Knight in combat. It depends on the positioning of the Lootas, Grots and Boyz and whether you Veil in some support to help clear out your opponent, I was mostly just thinking of Guard tanks and DA HS plasma dudes. My point about those Warriors in a GA doing more work than the Lychguard and the Monolith when factoring int he huge disparity in cost still stands.

Why bring up knights then because they won'' stop them from shooting either?

And ig is bad target for that. You are talking about king of chaff. Getting anything into combat with tanks requires bit more than warriors from ghost ark. LOT more.

And lootas...genestealers that move like 40" and fight twice won't do it. Why would warriors?

Thought Experiment.
How many Grots does a unit of mwbd tesla immortals kill a turn.

My rough math says 20 shots, 28 hits....something like 20 wounds?

Theoretically, 3x10 should chew through any and all grots and let you get into those tasty lootas in a turn, easily. Then use scarabs to screen out da jumping boyz.

Not a great return on investment in points killed, but, the lootas being taken out would be a back breaker in most game plans.

It's 30 hits actually. So 20 wounds. 16-17 dead.

tneva82 wrote:
Why bring up knights then because they won'' stop them from shooting either?

And ig is bad target for that. You are talking about king of chaff. Getting anything into combat with tanks requires bit more than warriors from ghost ark. LOT more.

And lootas...genestealers that move like 40" and fight twice won't do it. Why would warriors?

The reason I mentioned Knights was that we were talking about sling-shotting Lychguard into T1 combat. The only reason you would take Lychguard over Warriors is because of Knights and because you want to kill tanks, I was pointing out that being able to do damage to Knights in melee isn't worth that much and as long as you get into combat with a tank it doesn't matter whether you kill it or not.

If you assume you will never get into melee with a tank then you never will. Maybe you won't against perfect opponents but most people aren't perfect, most people make mistakes. I'm not sure why you think Boyz and Genestealers never get into combat with Tanks, if that was the case then IG parking lots would have a 99% win rate Orks and Tyranids, melee is the main weakness of IG tanks. Between standing 7" from your opponent's front line, a 7" charge, 3" worth of pile-in and another 3" worth of consolidation move, getting into melee with a tank isn't out of the question, especially because your opponent might not think you'd be able to T1 charge since the Deceiver prohibits the units he moves from doing so, it is a tactic that involves going around the rules much in the same way the Monolith is, but less obvious because your opponent might expect you just to relocate to get into RF range.

torblind wrote:
It's 30 hits actually. So 20 wounds. 16-17 dead.

You wound grots on 2+. t2. Sure if you target lootas you wound vs t4 but then grot shield protects and grots benefit from t4. Most efficient is to blow grots first and then vaporize lootas unless he has something silly like 200 grots to screen(unlikely to say the least)

One terrain dependant issue for this is that lootas are 48" range shooty unit so terrain allowing they and grots wants to be 30"+ away from enemy. Too far for multiple immortals to reach at least without nephrek advance. 1 unit won't clear all the grots and even 2 need bit luck

tneva82 wrote:

torblind wrote:
It's 30 hits actually. So 20 wounds. 16-17 dead.

You wound grots on 2+. t2. Sure if you target lootas you wound vs t4 but then grot shield protects and grots benefit from t4. Most efficient is to blow grots first and then vaporize lootas unless he has something silly like 200 grots to screen(unlikely to say the least)

One terrain dependant issue for this is that lootas are 48" range shooty unit so terrain allowing they and grots wants to be 30"+ away from enemy. Too far for multiple immortals to reach at least without nephrek advance. 1 unit won't clear all the grots and even 2 need bit luck

Woaha, T2.. Yup, so 20.83 kills then. What's their unit size and do they have moral boosts like the boys?

10-30 Grots, no moral boost, but if they have a Runt Herd they can only lose D3 if they fail a morale test.
They also cannot benefit from any stratagem or trait unless it specifically says it affects grots, and if there are 20 or more models in the unit they get +1 to hit.

Well only strategem that interest them is the grot shield and that's just mainly to force enemy to clear grots first(while it's active targeting grots directly is fastest way generally to clear lootas/meganobz behind).

Also targeting grots directly gives you some control, especially vs 10 strong units, where casualties are removed. Could be handy if you can position units correctly. With grot shield ork player has more leeway to remove models to his benefit

tneva82 wrote:
Well only strategem that interest them is the grot shield and that's just mainly to force enemy to clear grots first(while it's active targeting grots directly is fastest way generally to clear lootas/meganobz behind).

Also targeting grots directly gives you some control, especially vs 10 strong units, where casualties are removed. Could be handy if you can position units correctly. With grot shield ork player has more leeway to remove models to his benefit

So what i'm thinking is that if you have 3x10 immortals, you split fire the immortals 5 immortals per 10 grots, and you should reliably kill 60 a turn.

Throw a lord in, to wound on 2s and reroll 1s.

 iGuy91 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well only strategem that interest them is the grot shield and that's just mainly to force enemy to clear grots first(while it's active targeting grots directly is fastest way generally to clear lootas/meganobz behind).

Also targeting grots directly gives you some control, especially vs 10 strong units, where casualties are removed. Could be handy if you can position units correctly. With grot shield ork player has more leeway to remove models to his benefit

So what i'm thinking is that if you have 3x10 immortals, you split fire the immortals 5 immortals per 10 grots, and you should reliably kill 60 a turn.

Throw a lord in, to wound on 2s and reroll 1s.

If they are in 10 strong units(rather than 30) and you can get all in range(terrain hindering orks) yeah that's the way to do it.

Btw there's one scenario where directing directly to lootas can be good but that requires very fast shooters or very open terrain. 15 and 10 loota units. Shoot at the 10 strong. If he uses grot screen then target 15 at will. If you caused kill to 10 strong and 6 to other no combining. 9 or less are lot less scary mobs. And then you can fire at the bigger mob at will. Odds are he will let you kill 10 strong and curse the planet bowling ball


Automatically Appended Next Post:
About wraiths. How good/bad the coils are? I have 6 wraiths and 2 were from 2nd hand deal and have coils already. Should I look for replacing them with regular or is the price worth it for it?

I like having one model with whip coils so if one eats it in overwatch they can still get their attacks in.

Nice idea...Except the ability is specifically fight phase(phase 5) which is different to charge phase(phase 4). By the time fight phase(where the ability works) starts overwatch is all done and casualties removed.

The ability works only if you get charged and somebody dies, you charge, fight with other unit and strategem is used to attack before wraiths attack or combat continues from previous one and enemy attacks before you attack.

Unless this has been faq'ed? But as written in codex(as unreliable as that is these days as source...) it's only in fight phase which is different to charge phase.

Facisminthe41m wrote:
I like having one model with whip coils so if one eats it in overwatch they can still get their attacks in.

I suggest you read the whip coils rule Overwatch happens in the charge phase, and slain models are removed in the charge phase.

Whip coils
If the bearer is slain in the Fight phase before it has made its attacks, leave the model where it is. When its unit is chosen to fight in that phase, it can do so as normal. Once it has done so, remove the model from the battlefield.

I generally find 90% of the time, my wraiths die from gunfire, not from melee. They either get in and tear through their target relatively unscathed, or they get mauled by every gun in the enemy army.

So i don't generally find whip coils to be worth it.

That's been my theory as well. Hmm. Maybe cutting and gluing the other parts wouldn't be impossible. Structurally weakens those though

Are Immortals still considered better than Warriors?

I know this is an old debate, but I'm contemplating expanding my ~600pts or so of Necrons. Current I own 10 Warriors, 3 Destroyers, 6 Scarabs, an Overlord and a Monolith. So, basically just the "classics" In our small games at home, we always use the Warriors as Gauss Immortals because the rules are better, it bumps up our points a bit and I remember playing Necrons when Warriors had a 3+ armour.

But recently I've been thinking about getting another Warrior Box and/or maybe a box of Immortals so that we can upgrade from an Outrider to a Battalions.

So should we keep using the Warriors as Immortals (with a few actual Immortals thrown in for aesthetics) and how would the 3 units be broken up if I had about 21 total models (3x 7 or 1x 10 + 2x 5, etc). Or should we start using units of Warriors (2x 10) and 1 unit of Immortals (maybe Tesla on an objective).

Keep in mind that this is around 1000pt casual games, usually against Marines

-

 Galef wrote:
Are Immortals still considered better than Warriors?

I know this is an old debate, but I'm contemplating expanding my ~600pts or so of Necrons. Current I own 10 Warriors, 3 Destroyers, 6 Scarabs, an Overlord and a Monolith. So, basically just the "classics" In our small games at home, we always use the Warriors as Gauss Immortals because the rules are better, it bumps up our points a bit and I remember playing Necrons when Warriors had a 3+ armour.

But recently I've been thinking about getting another Warrior Box and/or maybe a box of Immortals so that we can upgrade from an Outrider to a Battalions.

So should we keep using the Warriors as Immortals (with a few actual Immortals thrown in for aesthetics) and how would the 3 units be broken up if I had about 21 total models (3x 7 or 1x 10 + 2x 5, etc). Or should we start using units of Warriors (2x 10) and 1 unit of Immortals (maybe Tesla on an objective).

Keep in mind that this is around 1000pt casual games, usually against Marines

-

I think warriors have a place, but Immortals (specifically Tesla) are leagues ahead of them. Their damage output is just too good to pass up.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Are Immortals still considered better than Warriors?

I know this is an old debate, but I'm contemplating expanding my ~600pts or so of Necrons. Current I own 10 Warriors, 3 Destroyers, 6 Scarabs, an Overlord and a Monolith. So, basically just the "classics" In our small games at home, we always use the Warriors as Gauss Immortals because the rules are better, it bumps up our points a bit and I remember playing Necrons when Warriors had a 3+ armour.

But recently I've been thinking about getting another Warrior Box and/or maybe a box of Immortals so that we can upgrade from an Outrider to a Battalions.

So should we keep using the Warriors as Immortals (with a few actual Immortals thrown in for aesthetics) and how would the 3 units be broken up if I had about 21 total models (3x 7 or 1x 10 + 2x 5, etc). Or should we start using units of Warriors (2x 10) and 1 unit of Immortals (maybe Tesla on an objective).

Keep in mind that this is around 1000pt casual games, usually against Marines

-

I think warriors have a place, but Immortals (specifically Tesla) are leagues ahead of them. Their damage output is just too good to pass up.

For their points, warriors are not too far behind in damage output. In rapid fire range.

Immortals with Tesla (and MWBD) really shine against T4 with t-shirt saves, where S5 makes a difference and AP-1 doesnt benefit that much.

What Immortals also has going for them, is the 3+ save. 2+ in cover, which is really powerful.

But depending on your situation, you could make warriors work, bit I never leave home without at least one unit of 10 Tesla Immortals

Are Necron players hopeful that there'll be something to benefit from this FAQ? We've all heard about the Castellan nerf as well as few strongly rumoured changes. Has there been any strong indication that Necrons will get something good? Perhaps an answer to when we can use the Eternity Gate or Invasion Beams?

elook wrote:
Are Necron players hopeful that there'll be something to benefit from this FAQ? We've all heard about the Castellan nerf as well as few strongly rumoured changes. Has there been any strong indication that Necrons will get something good? Perhaps an answer to when we can use the Eternity Gate or Invasion Beams?

Haven\t heard more than wishlisting. Which includes that castellan nerf. According to rumours CA2018 FOR SURE killed castellan and soup. How did that pan out?-)

On a topic of nightbringer got one for cheap(12 euro's including postage. Brand new 31 euros so pretty good deal...). How good this is in game? Was originally planning to get deceiver first for the nice redeployment but for this price had to get this one.

Noticed it's a character so good shooting protection. That's nice. That was my first worry about that. 8 wounds, 4++ and would get shot quite easily. Not with character. He can actually get into combat safely!