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Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

I've heard they're weak, but don't actually have their dex.

2 things though: after November's WD, they can take an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor without messing them up- this may give a bit of a boost.

Also, I think they are one of January's PA factions, so we can hope for "the treatment" - ie. new doctrine equivalent, relics, strategems etc. Hard to say what they'll get though.

Where Do Grey Knights Stand?

In the blood of the Sisters of Battle

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Where Do Grey Knights Stand?

In the blood of the Sisters of Battle

I was gonna make a joke about GK not standing in the current meta at all, but lying in the ditch, but this reference is way better

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 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

They are quite literally the worst codex army in the game right now.

What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

I'm sorry I'm laughing out loud in my office. If you haven't heard how bad GK are, well, take the stuffing out of your ears. They are widely believed to be the WORST codex bar none in the entire edition. They were released as one of the lauch codex's, which gave them a big problem when you factor in power creep. Also, their biggest strength, the ability to DS their entire army at any point during a match, was essentially nerfed into uselessness. Finally, their only counter (daemons) were given a stratagem at launch that effectively cut their balls off. They are an extremely overcosted, underperforming faction that relies heavily on luck or mistakes by opponent to get wins.

That and there are only several "good" units in the whole list, and most of them are characters.

Fun fact - they have a Superheavy flyer that is the highest cost unit in the game (Titans don't exist in 40k 8th)

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Fun fact - they have a Superheavy flyer that is the highest cost unit in the game (Titans don't exist in 40k 8th)

Literally nothing in this statement is correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

They need a redesign from the ground up. Their entire schtick is close assault, rapid deployment via deep strike and psyker powers. The structural rules of 8th edition preclude all three from happening.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

They need a redesign from the ground up. Their entire schtick is close assault, rapid deployment via deep strike and psyker powers. The structural rules of 8th edition preclude all three from happening.

Sadly agree, however with Marines going from solidly low-to-mid-tier to current Top-tier without a complete redesign, I feel there are some things that could be done to make GKs at LEAST mid-tier.
Personally, I'd start by giving them Psybolt ammo by default, rather than as a single unit Strat. Make it something similar to SIA in which each unit gets to choose either +1S or -1AP to their bolter shots. Maybe the Strat allows both for a unit?

Next, I'd give them some kind of deployment option similar to Scouts or Vanguard units. Maybe allow Strikes & Terminators to deploy anywhere outside 9" from enemy units/deployment zones instead of in Reserves. That would bypass the Matched play restriction and allow their Troops to rapidly get where they need to be

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 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

Basically with the points costs they got. If they get a sort of doctrines and new stratagems they could be pretty dang good. They should also get the thousand sons treatment with their mini smites.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

Basically with the points costs they got. If they get a sort of doctrines and new stratagems they could be pretty dang good. They should also get the thousand sons treatment with their mini smites.

You mean giving characters full smites and non-characters mini-smites?

They are hanging out at the bottom of Tournament performs with the other no-supplement Marine armies while eagerly awaiting Ritual Of The Damned.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
What would they need to be a mid-to-top tier army/faction again? Primaris? More psychic powers? Make them re-roll failed wound rolls for those attacks against Chaos in general, not just Daemons?

Basically with the points costs they got. If they get a sort of doctrines and new stratagems they could be pretty dang good. They should also get the thousand sons treatment with their mini smites.

You mean giving characters full smites and non-characters mini-smites?

Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

Well, the right pick up army for me atm.
As a pure army, hard to pull off especially when the enemy is shooty and this edition is a shooty one.
The advantage is that nobody can complain about my army
which is different when I play CW or Drukhari.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Fun fact - they have a Superheavy flyer that is the highest cost unit in the game (Titans don't exist in 40k 8th)

As it often does, reality disagrees with you.
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Imperial-Armour-Index-Collection-2017

They need more damage output, specifically against 2+/3+ saves in at range OR a much more reliable deepstrike/charge.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

My thoughts exactly. A second GK tree would also make a lot of sense. Or at the very least give Gk access to Librarius.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

I think 1ksons are at the very least competitive. Rubrics alone are better than Strikes, the Occult Terminators are better than paladins, and Arihman is a top tier Chaos HQ.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

I think 1ksons are at the very least competitive. Rubrics alone are better than Strikes, the Occult Terminators are better than paladins, and Arihman is a top tier Chaos HQ.

IDK about rubrics being better than strikes. Strikes DS for free and have huge melle by comparison they just have better prefered targets. Occults are certainly better than terms. Arhiman - though very good is only so good because he has access to better powers. Draigo on the other hand if he had access to actaully good spells would make ahriman look like a chump.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

I think 1ksons are at the very least competitive. Rubrics alone are better than Strikes, the Occult Terminators are better than paladins, and Arihman is a top tier Chaos HQ.

IDK about rubrics being better than strikes. Strikes DS for free and have huge melle by comparison they just have better prefered targets. Occults are certainly better than terms. Arhiman - though very good is only so good because he has access to better powers. Draigo on the other hand if he had access to actaully good spells would make ahriman look like a chump.

rubrics have a bit more resistance but the lack of options for them really hinders what roles they can fill. Sure , 1ksons at leasts has some competitive units, the problem is that pure 1ksons isnt really good outside of Ahriman + DPs + (a long time ago, tzaangors). I dont think Gks need much work to get to the current 1ksons level. Both armies have similar weaknesses (mainly heavy armor )

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

My thoughts exactly. A second GK tree would also make a lot of sense. Or at the very least give Gk access to Librarius.

Not even close.

What GKs need are bespoke powers they're all allowed to cast based on the unit, and we completely rework the Sanctic.

GK have a significant number of major problems:
A tiny number of psychic powers in a psychic-dependant army. Unlike Tzeentch, or even Space Marines, who get access to several psychic charts, Grey Knights get a mere six powers.

A huge reliance on stratagems to deal damage, but a huge deficit of Command Points. You need Psybolt Ammo/Psychic Onslaught to do real damage with their guns, but those are 2cp apiece. If you want durable characters for a turn, (by boosting invulns by 1,) that's also 2cp.

There's also a huge defecit of unit flexibility. Most of the army fills the same role - Heavy infantry with varying degrees of durability and damage. There's no chaff units to fill slots or screen, and even our strongest units aren't exactly swinging for the fences. Plus, because there's so much redundancy, a lot of units feel like worse copies of other stuff - For example, there's almost no point to taking a Dreadknight over a Grandmaster Dreadknight when the latter is just flatly better for a really minor cost difference.

On top of of this all, the army has a ton of weaknesses and hard counters. If you face an army with lots of mid-AP weapons, you might as well pack up and go home. Because of this, Space Marines - the most commonly played army in the game - are a hard counter, as well as a bunch of other armies.

Some of their tools are REALLY good: Sanctuary. Heed the Prognosticars. Astral Aim. Gate of Infinity.

They seem to lack cost effective staying power and cost effective ranged anti-tank/anti-elite (although ven dreads are decent).

Personally I wouldn't have decreased their basic infantry cost at all (or maybe just decrease it less than they did?), but gave them something like a 5++ vs ranged weapons for everything in basic power armor. Call the rule "kine shield" or something.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes plus it's upgraded mini smite. D3 mortals on a 10+.

agreed, the shortened range alone already is a big enough nerf. I'm also of the opinion that rules that are similar should work the same across armies. GK and 1ksons are basically equivalent armies in concept (except good vs evil), theres no reason they both cant get regular smites on characters

My thoughts exactly. A second GK tree would also make a lot of sense. Or at the very least give Gk access to Librarius.

Not even close.

What GKs need are bespoke powers they're all allowed to cast based on the unit, and we completely rework the Sanctic.

That is how it used to be and it would be pretty cool if we got that back. I'd be happy with ether. Sanctic being weak is a huge problem for the GK. Though it wouldn't be such a huge deal with buffed smite. The thing is with only 6 powers and every unit being able to cast and you run out of everything but smite.

 Psionara wrote:
Where do Grey Knights stand in terms of strength on the tabletop compared to other armies/factions?

In the trash bin

Waaaghpower wrote:
GK have a significant number of major problems:
A tiny number of psychic powers in a psychic-dependant army. Unlike Tzeentch, or even Space Marines, who get access to several psychic charts, Grey Knights get a mere six powers.

A huge reliance on stratagems to deal damage, but a huge deficit of Command Points. You need Psybolt Ammo/Psychic Onslaught to do real damage with their guns, but those are 2cp apiece. If you want durable characters for a turn, (by boosting invulns by 1,) that's also 2cp.

There's also a huge defecit of unit flexibility. Most of the army fills the same role - Heavy infantry with varying degrees of durability and damage. There's no chaff units to fill slots or screen, and even our strongest units aren't exactly swinging for the fences. Plus, because there's so much redundancy, a lot of units feel like worse copies of other stuff - For example, there's almost no point to taking a Dreadknight over a Grandmaster Dreadknight when the latter is just flatly better for a really minor cost difference.

On top of of this all, the army has a ton of weaknesses and hard counters. If you face an army with lots of mid-AP weapons, you might as well pack up and go home. Because of this, Space Marines - the most commonly played army in the game - are a hard counter, as well as a bunch of other armies.

Specifically about your GMDK vs NDK. The NDK with it's roughly 50 point drop is actually at pretty reasonable standing with the grand master. Personally I like the idea of 3 GMDK and 3 NDK and max strikes or strikes + Interceptors.

Slightly awkwardly, while holding their ankles?

I don’t have modern experience, but they’ve suffered from being Melee marines with shooty guns... that also have Psychic powers but no particular defensive bonus that keeps them from consistently losing in battles of attrition.

If I recall, they also suffer from slow, relatively expensive anti-tank platforms, which again creates poor attrition qualities compared to other MEQ.

If they had +6” movement on all units, ridiculous as that might seem, it would solve many of their otherwise inefficient trades... by virtue of being more selective with their targeting and ability to avoid opponent’s retaliation.

Being able to shunt / teleport through the warp as their chapter trait could reflect their mastery of warp travel, and give them a unique spot in the crowded MEQ market.

GK's did okay with the latest points drop, but still stink. I say this as I play them.

For a psychic army they suck at psychic powers. They need more powers, better powers, and abilities to either cast powers more reliably or cast the same power multiple times. Smite should be regular smite for characters.

Their special weapons need either a boost, or another points drop, perhaps both.

GK are still being punished for some bad decisions that were made back in the 5e book (dropping everyone to the standard Space Marine statlines from their WS5/2A in the 3e book, "all models are armed with and must pay for literal force weapons", and the attempt to make an entire army out of slight variations on one elite melee unit with a total of four possible ranged weapons on any version of them).

The reasons they don't work are tied up in the one-dimensional model range and the 8e psychic phase. If you fiddle around with the points you might produce a situation where they're accidentally strong because one of the units is underpriced (Purifiers in 5e), but they're so narrowly-written and badly-designed that that's never going to be more than a casual fluke that doesn't get repeated.