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This is not a click bait. I have almost 5 minutes of cinematics! This video was truly beyond its time and it took me a while to finally get it. I wanted to share the pure awesomes and glory of Machine God! Praise the Omnissiah!





But on more serious note, the bad guys which we are disgusted by and fight against in other video games are 1 by 1 replica of Mechanicus. If anything, Strogg is a watered down version of concentrated evil which is Mechanicus and Imperium. This makes me wonder, can anything be worse than this? Isn't fighting against this evil a moral obligation of every human? Was resisting the Emperor the moral necessity of humanity? I mean, Emperor even during glory days was bringing this horror to the masses. The ones who resisted were subjected to genocide at best. The more I think about W40k, the more I lean towards Chaos. It is the only true way for humanity. In seeking for our salvation, we must turn back to primal Gods which shape all we see, because even in hell, it is better than in the Imperium.

How is every planet becoming a massive Murder Orgy better?

The false dichotomy of a broken system. There is another way!

You lost any rhetorical credibility when you suggested Chaos is the only way...

123ply wrote:
You lost any rhetorical credibility when you suggested Chaos is the only way...

The problem is that the Emperor had made it this way. The irony was that the Chaos was happily sitting idly until Emperor came, made pacts with them. Then broke his promises and thought that he had outsmarted them. This forced Chaos Gods to take vengeance upon Emperor which had fethed everything up. The deal was that the Emperor would introduce humanity to Chaos. All he had to do for all this power is to make Chaos official. Whorever wanted could worship it. This is it. The issue is that then Emperor had launched massive galactic wide crusade which lasted centuries. Humanity resisted and disagreed with an Emperor, but because he was so OP and had so many triumph cards, he eventually would subdue every civilization. This centuries long total war caused by the Emperor had bloated the warp with aggression and violence. Emperor also had forced the ones fighting him to become more desperate and to call literal demons to fight against his tyranny. When Horus turned against the Emperor, he was merely a centerstone upon which every world rallied. It is said that roughly half of the worlds conquered had risen up against the Emperor in one way or another. Some just became independent, some joined Horus and actively fought the Emperor, some remained ''loyal", but provided only token of support. This is not geopolitics of an universe which "lived happily ever after". Horus Heresy just showed that humanity actually thought of the Emperor and Long War which lasts now over 10k years is only continuation of this rift which the Emperor had made himself.

The irony of W40k is that it was the Emperor who had caused the warp to be as it is. It was the Emperor who caused the Chaos to become as it is. Even now, Imperium represents one extreme which oppresses its citizens by the trillions each and every day. You are pretty much forced to worship Chaos and ask Chaos Gods for help if you want to have something better in life.


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chimera0205 wrote:
How is every planet becoming a massive Murder Orgy better?

Some planets will do worse, some better. This is the beauty of Chaos. It promotes individuality and personal choice. Even if it just replacing one dystopian future for another, I would rather much prefer short pain and then death over long, dragged out misery and slow degradation which what you endure under Imperium.

I would rather much prefer short pain and then death over long, dragged out misery and slow degradation which what you endure under Imperium.

Swap Imperium for Chaos here and you actually have the truth of it. Your soul is literally a plaything for eternity.

 Ernestas wrote:

But on more serious note, the bad guys which we are disgusted by and fight against in other video games are 1 by 1 replica of Mechanicus. If anything, Strogg is a watered down version of concentrated evil which is Mechanicus and Imperium. This makes me wonder, can anything be worse than this?

Did you play Q4? The Strogg are a commentary on our increasing reliance on and voluntary incorporation of technology. The Mechanicus are a commentary on our increasing ignorance of technology and the extent to which we contextualise and anthropomorphise our interactions with them.
The Strogg are not evil because robotics- they are evil because they are robo-xenos who invade earth and forcibly transplant humans into their armies and use them for food/spare parts.
The Mechanicus are not evil- they modify skitaari who submit to their masters designs, just like soldiers willingly submit to wear camo, or religious groups agree to attend services. Involuntary modification is reserves for those who have transgressed the laws of the Omnissiah, or blasphemed against His holy works, such as yourself.

It is not evil if, having been tried in a court of your peers and having been found guilty of transgressing our right and just speech-laws, your tongue and lower jaw are removed and replaced with a laud hailer that continually praises Him-on-Terra. Now report for your augmentation sentence, the cost of which (and the hours of work shift missed) will be docked from your pay.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

I would rather much prefer short pain and then death over long, dragged out misery and slow degradation which what you endure under Imperium.

Swap Imperium for Chaos here and you actually have the truth of it. Your soul is literally a plaything for eternity.

An average human after death has awareness of a shrimp or other small animal. Being plaything in the warp is like being abused while you are a servitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:

But on more serious note, the bad guys which we are disgusted by and fight against in other video games are 1 by 1 replica of Mechanicus. If anything, Strogg is a watered down version of concentrated evil which is Mechanicus and Imperium. This makes me wonder, can anything be worse than this?

Did you play Q4? The Strogg are a commentary on our increasing reliance on and voluntary incorporation of technology. The Mechanicus are a commentary on our increasing ignorance of technology and the extent to which we contextualise and anthropomorphise our interactions with them.
The Strogg are not evil because robotics- they are evil because they are robo-xenos who invade earth and forcibly transplant humans into their armies and use them for food/spare parts.
The Mechanicus are not evil- they modify skitaari who submit to their masters designs, just like soldiers willingly submit to wear camo, or religious groups agree to attend services. Involuntary modification is reserves for those who have transgressed the laws of the Omnissiah, or blasphemed against His holy works, such as yourself.

It is not evil if, having been tried in a court of your peers and having been found guilty of transgressing our right and just speech-laws, your tongue and lower jaw are removed and replaced with a laud hailer that continually praises Him-on-Terra. Now report for your augmentation sentence, the cost of which (and the hours of work shift missed) will be docked from your pay.

Might makes right!

Yea, I did played Q4. There was little story outside "Look, a bad guy! Go and shoot it!". Though, regardless of how those two got there, the end result is all too similar. If you would read about Skitarri creation processes, mind wiping, lobotomy, uncaring replacement of organic tissue with grotesque fusion of machinery. Dragging out unwilling subjects to strogitification process is little different than making servitors or Skitarii out of your enemies or ones who broke your sacred laws, like being late for work or forgetting to apply sacred rites when changing screw drivers on a hatch. Of course it is just an exaggeration, but in the lore, crimes can vary from serious to trivial and there is no such thing as a ''human right''. If one Forge World decides that being late to your workstation is a crime suitable in turning you to servitor, because they are currently unable to meet work quota due to lack of menial workers then, this is it. You did technically broke a law with clear consequences for your civil disobedience.

 Ernestas wrote:

Yea, I did played Q4. There was little story outside "Look, a bad guy! Go and shoot it!". Though, regardless of how those two got there, the end result is all too similar.

Ends and means, friend. If I take 20 credits from your wallet at point with my laspistol, or you gift me 20 credits, the end result is you are 20 creds lighter. I have a feeling you'd consider my robbing you to be morally wrong though.And for the record as a big Q2 fan, I was highly interested in the Q4 lore- being the first quake game with NPC's who talked and dropped exposition. None of it was necessary to enjoy the game as a shooter and much of it was an excuse to shoot the next bad guy, but there was a theme of human soldiers in the belly of a vast machine, faced with the moral quandry of using you- their stroggified teammate, like a tool to stop the greatest threat humanity had faced.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Skitarii wrote:The Skitarii seek to grow ever closer to the Machine God by augmenting their bodies with inviolate metal. Each new wound is a chance for bionic revelation. Such is their fanaticism that even healthy organs and body parts are cut away and replaced. To face a Skitarii Legion is to fight against warriors that are less than human, and yet far more deadly.

To the skittles, inductees of the machine cult or vat grown clonetroopers, their bionics bring them closer to their god. It would be like if Christians could replace parts of their imperfect mortal bodies with the perfected immortal body of the resurrected Christ. You and I might disagree, but its entirely a positive thing in their minds.

If you would read about Skitarri creation processes, mind wiping, lobotomy, uncaring replacement of organic tissue with grotesque fusion of machinery. Dragging out unwilling subjects to stroggification process is little different than making servitors or Skitarii out of your enemies or ones who broke your sacred laws, like being late for work or forgetting to apply sacred rites when changing screw drivers on a hatch.

Dragging convicts in to servitor them as punsihment is meaningfully different to forcing peaceful populations to transition to meat puppets. You may disagree with the sacred laws of a given society, but they must have the freedom to enact their own laws and punishments. In a way, lobotomisation is less cruel than locking a man away in a box while his children mature and grow without him. Even if it weren't, to enforce your worldview on a separate culture and religion would be wrong.(In universe though, unbelievers could be in league with any one of four actual devils, enforcing the Imperial cult/ machine cult on a population is both an act of kindness and common sense self preservation )

Of course it is just an exaggeration, but in the lore, crimes can vary from serious to trivial and there is no such thing as a ''human right''. If one Forge World decides that being late to your workstation is a crime suitable in turning you to servitor, because they are currently unable to meet work quota due to lack of menial workers then, this is it. You did technically broke a law with clear consequences for your civil disobedience.

Correct. there is no such thing as a "human right"- they are entirely social constructs. Every day I don't murder you in your sleep is an act of unwarranted mercy from me. However, in order for a society to form and function, there must be agreed upon codes of behaviour and these can include conditional 'rights' and 'privileges' conferred by the group or those holding power, in addition to punishments. in 40k, if I murder you on a forge world, violating your right to give your life for the Omnissiah, I may be lobotomised, effectively ending my life and transforming me into a meat puppet working for society's good.

With Skitarii, not everyone is willing. Less favored troopers are being brain wiped or impaired, making them effectively combat servitors. As for rules, if there are no underlying principle upon which those rules could be written by, you end up with tyranny. At that point, crime and punishment is merely a formality. Dispensing of this formality is the line between being an Imperial servant or worshipping Chaos.


I had created a topic in order to help and find out about that story which I heard once. My thread turned out to be pretty popular and we had uncovered even more dirt on Adeptus Mechanicus!
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/ejchnu/need_help_in_pinning_down_a_lore_entry_about/

Yes, Skitarii are created forcefully. Yes, the Imperium and the Emperor are pretty crap, and the bulk of chaos' mortal forces are currently ex-imperial ones. No, chaos is definitely not better. You do know that the forces of chaos have skitarii and servitors too right? That they also have slavery and genocide? That is not individuality. That is not personal choice.

Also, Slaanesh has been trying to consume the souls of every Aeldari since the Fall, which doesn't exactly fit with your 'they were perfectly harmless and give everyone a choice' hypothesis.

Cyrixiinus wrote:
Yes, Skitarii are created forcefully. Yes, the Imperium and the Emperor are pretty crap, and the bulk of chaos' mortal forces are currently ex-imperial ones. No, chaos is definitely not better. You do know that the forces of chaos have skitarii and servitors too right? That they also have slavery and genocide? That is not individuality. That is not personal choice.

Also, Slaanesh has been trying to consume the souls of every Aeldari since the Fall, which doesn't exactly fit with your 'they were perfectly harmless and give everyone a choice' hypothesis.

How Chaos is not pro-choice? Ones who manage to put up resistance and rebel against their slavers are usually rewarded with elevation to ranks of soldiers. In Imperium, your own personal initiative, strength and intelligence is shunned and punished. Try to be too clever for your own good and you will be branded as heretek. Manage to win against all odds while fighting against xenos. Commissar will reward you with summary execution, because you improvised and took Tau plasma rifle while your lasgun ran out of ammo. Maybe you are just born gifted? Black ships are waiting for you to torture you for very act of existing. You will be pardoned by essentially decimating your own soul which is equivalent for lobotomy, except it is for one's spirit rather than intellect. If you are deemed not worthy enough, because you are not gifted enough, you will be fed, slowly and painfully to gargantuan psychic entity. Fate identical when Slaanesh gets his hands on his sweet Aeldari children. Chaos is meritocracy while Imperium is theocracy. One values individual achievement and see no value in anything which is given, another punishes personal initiative and promotes subservience to chain of command which can't be questioned or doubted, because its right to rule is divine.

 Ernestas wrote:


How Chaos is not pro-choice? Ones who manage to put up resistance and rebel against their slavers are usually rewarded with elevation to ranks of soldiers.

Unless a number of things happen to them, like being eaten by daemons or thrown into firey pits, sacrificed in rituals or being driven insane by reality bending and warping around them. Or being left to die in the inevitable Imperium reprisal because the Chaos Marines aim was to destablise a productive planet and all the promises were honeyed lies.

In Imperium, your own personal initiative, strength and intelligence is shunned and punished. Try to be too clever for your own good and you will be branded as heretek. Manage to win against all odds while fighting against xenos. Commissar will reward you with summary execution, because you improvised and took Tau plasma rifle while your lasgun ran out of ammo.

In the present day, every thing in your house can be wirelessly communicating with your phone. In the far future, a simple lasgun could have various functions that are not safe for a basic operator to employ. The Mechanicus strictly controls what you can do with their tech to avoid data corruption and daemonic presence.
If you mess with the unholy designs of the Dark Mechanicum you will be treated far worse. The Dark Mechanicum are putting the daemons in there on purpose and you aren't allowed to mess with the arcane seals. If you don't get eaten, you may be sacrificed to appease the daemons inside.

Maybe you are just born gifted? Black ships are waiting for you to torture you for very act of existing. You will be pardoned by essentially decimating your own soul which is equivalent for lobotomy, except it is for one's spirit rather than intellect. If you are deemed not worthy enough, because you are not gifted enough, you will be fed, slowly and painfully to gargantuan psychic entity. Fate identical when Slaanesh gets his hands on his sweet Aeldari children.

Psykers serve unlobotomised in the Imperium as a valuable resource, some of the most powerful people are the navigator houses. If you are born as a living timebomb, you'll forgive us for denying you some of the rights everyone else enjoys. The Eldar children weren't a genocide waiting to happen (for the Eldar at least) and weren't tested for meritocracy (to see if they could control their powers before being fed to the throne)

Chaos is meritocracy while Imperium is theocracy. One values individual achievement and see no value in anything which is given, another punishes personal initiative and promotes subservience to chain of command which can't be questioned or doubted, because its right to rule is divine.

Demonstrably false. The Imperium is lead by the highlords- Men who answer to the Emperor, but who have specialised skills in manufacture, supply chains, defence, communication, transport, governance etc. Each of them rose to the top of their respective fields and organisations through merit and politicking. Chaos is lead by Abaddon, a warlord who can command the most warriors loyal to him. The Chaos gods are happy to support him as he has the greatest potential to mess up the Imperium. What kind of peacetime leader is Ezekyle Abaddon? How well has he supplied his troops? What worlds has he conquered where the people have prospered and done great things?

That doesn't happen as often as you would like to thing. Chaos after all is all about meritocracy. Each warlord is competing for their own personal power. What is the worth of a warlord? It is strength of his warband. What makes warband strong? It is supplies, weapons, men. Corpses do not make good soldiers or workers. It is a common misconception that Chaos is all about never ending violence yet in lore Chaos is shown to be excellent stewards. Take a look at Master's bidding, part 2 where Word Bearers talk about their most precious of accomplishments. They pride themselves most of all on taking ragtag civilization or barbarians fighting with each other over wars of faith and molding them into the force which is capable of defeating full scale Imperial invasion.

You seem to be unfamiliar with Adeptus Mechanicus stagnation and orthodoxy. You can't even modify servitor to meet new, unforseen tasks without being branded as heretek. It is real danger that if you undergo unauthorized battlefield refit to your vehicles in order to better fight enemy force, you might as well sign your death warrant.

This lobotomy is referred as soul-binding. It serves in making psyker a lot more resilient against denizens of a warp. This is impossible process to do, because any emotion, any thought in a psyker is manifestation of power. In order for psyker to be far less susceptible to possible possession he needs to do one of the following: to not use their powers or to not have much of his own soul left in order to feel and have its own initiative. Much in a very similar fashion like Tau. They have very feeble souls on a level of animals. Thus Tau can't feel strong emotions which would blaze in a warp like a beacon. By undergoing soul-binding, your soul is essentially murdered. You won't feel anything inside anymore and yet, you still be able to function normally as before.

I want you to prove this "demonstrably false" claim. So far, everybody who said this in this forum did not had that it takes to do so. High Lords of Terra are notoriously corrupt, inept and self-serving. Entire wars were fought over that in the past! This is key point in few books which were written about how High Lords are utterly incompetent and more of a threat to an Imperium than an asset. Your comparison with Abbadon shows that you do not know much of his history. Chaos gave him nothing and he swore them nothing. Chaos goes with Abbadon solely because he is powerful. Abaddon is not an organizer. He doesn't run or oversee planets of Chaos. It is not Chaos nature. Abbadon unifies Chaos into a singular force. This is his purpose. It is leaders of individual warbands who oversee main aspects of managing their forces. It is Dark Mechanicus who oversee production of weapons of war. You are comparing apples to oranges.

 Ernestas wrote:
That doesn't happen as often as you would like to thing. Chaos after all is all about meritocracy. Each warlord is competing for their own personal power. What is the worth of a warlord? It is strength of his warband. What makes warband strong? It is supplies, weapons, men. Corpses do not make good soldiers or workers. It is a common misconception that Chaos is all about never ending violence yet in lore Chaos is shown to be excellent stewards. Take a look at Master's bidding, part 2 where Word Bearers talk about their most precious of accomplishments. They pride themselves most of all on taking ragtag civilization or barbarians fighting with each other over wars of faith and molding them into the force which is capable of defeating full scale Imperial invasion.

The guard does that every day of the week, but generals don't get the right to rule the Imperium. You need to stop conflating meritocracy with might makes right. The guy wuith the biggest daemon sword is not the best guy to be in charge of your society. Chaos marines famously cannot manufacture everything they need, thus the need for realspace raids. There just isn't enough organisation and co-operation between legions, dark mech, and various human/mutant/daemon warbands to get anyone the supplies to fight effectively- all of the best stuff just nabbed by the most powerful warband.

You seem to be unfamiliar with Adeptus Mechanicus stagnation and orthodoxy. You can't even modify servitor to meet new, unforseen tasks without being branded as heretek. It is real danger that if you undergo unauthorized battlefield refit to your vehicles in order to better fight enemy force, you might as well sign your death warrant.

That's overblown. Servitors are typically monotasked because of the ease of manufacture and the ready supply of new components. Servitors can be programmed on the fly or given instructions, or even new masters (Necromunda battle servitors and ambots) Battle refits/upgrades are the enginseers stock in trade- the Thunderer tank is an example of what happens to a damaged Leman russ. Rough terrain modifications and other environmental upgrades are added as needed for a warzone.
The stagnation of the Mechanicus internally is a prohibition on creating new technologies whole cloth, or lower orders messing with existing technologies ( you don't want laymen trying to improve a plasma reactor) Within the Mechanicus, the organisation and combining of existing technologies into new forms is fine- its how you get twinlinked weapons and artificier stuff like combiweapons.

As you've stated, the issue is with unauthorised modifications. And that issue persists with the Dark Mechanicus, so its a moot point.

This lobotomy is referred as soul-binding. It serves in making psyker a lot more resilient against denizens of a warp. This is impossible process to do, because any emotion, any thought in a psyker is manifestation of power. In order for psyker to be far less susceptible to possible possession he needs to do one of the following: to not use their powers or to not have much of his own soul left in order to feel and have its own initiative. Much in a very similar fashion like Tau. They have very feeble souls on a level of animals. Thus Tau can't feel strong emotions which would blaze in a warp like a beacon. By undergoing soul-binding, your soul is essentially murdered. You won't feel anything inside anymore and yet, you still be able to function normally as before.

That's very imaginative but its not true at all. Soul binding does not remove your soul, it strengthens the mind- and inflicts a lot of agony and nerve damage. The Astropath has touched the divine, and his personality changes, like anyone who had undergone trauma and had a deep revelatory experience. They remain people with hopes fears and foibles, not lobotomised at all.

I want you to prove this "demonstrably false" claim. So far, everybody who said this in this forum did not had that it takes to do so. High Lords of Terra are notoriously corrupt, inept and self-serving. Entire wars were fought over that in the past! This is key point in few books which were written about how High Lords are utterly incompetent and more of a threat to an Imperium than an asset.

They sit at the top of the biggest bureaucracy conceivable, their effectiveness is limited by the scale of galactic governance. They are still the best at their respective fields, when you discount outliers like Cawl, who seemingly repaints Tau equipment blue.

Your comparison with Abbadon shows that you do not know much of his history. Chaos gave him nothing and he swore them nothing. Chaos goes with Abbadon solely because he is powerful. Abaddon is not an organizer. He doesn't run or oversee planets of Chaos. It is not Chaos nature. Abbadon unifies Chaos into a singular force. This is his purpose. It is leaders of individual warbands who oversee main aspects of managing their forces. It is Dark Mechanicus who oversee production of weapons of war. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Your comparison with the High Lords shows that you do not know much of their history. the Imperium follows the High Lords solely because they are powerful, authorised figureheads. The High Lords are not organizers. They don't run or oversee Imperial words. It is not the Imperial system. The High Lords and the Emperor unify the Imperium into a singular force. This is the High Lords purpose. It is leaders of individual sectors who oversee main aspects of managing their worlds and armies. It is the Mechanicus who oversee production of weapons of war. You are comparing apples to apples.

There is no Dark Munitorum. The Dark Mechanius do not have oaths to supply chaos forces beyond the ones individual chaos warlords can enforce with their daemon sword. They are mad scientists cackling in hell as they shove daemons into new metal forms. They'll accept payment for their services in threats or slaves, necessitating more realspace raids. Abaddon is a psychopath trying to beat order out of chaos and hell. The only authority he commands is what he can enforce through the Black Legion. Other soldiers follow him through fear, or through a desire for a return to order (IE: when they served the Imperium), knowing that the nature of chaos is self defeating. The problem is that Abaddon has none of the qualities necessary to create order- he's no diplomat, he's no logistician, he's no builder. He can bully people like that into working for him, but they will still be reporting to a warlord at the end of the day.

The guard does that every day of the week, but generals don't get the right to rule the Imperium. You need to stop conflating meritocracy with might makes right. The guy wuith the biggest daemon sword is not the best guy to be in charge of your society. Chaos marines famously cannot manufacture everything they need, thus the need for realspace raids. There just isn't enough organisation and co-operation between legions, dark mech, and various human/mutant/daemon warbands to get anyone the supplies to fight effectively- all of the best stuff just nabbed by the most powerful warband.

Meritocracy means that the most experienced, most capable leaders are being elected to positions of power. Chaos lords are notoriously meritocratic, any weakness is severely punished. Any miscalculation will see the consequences of their failure. This is why they tend to be such good leaders in general. You also forget that a lot of those leaders in W40k came from very humble beginnings, even starting out as slaves. What is this if not meritocracy? You attribute rule to arbitrary concepts. It is leadership, cunning, warfare what is important for a leader, especially in W40k millenium. You do not judge how good a ruler was on his management skills. No, each famous president, king, emperor or whatever is judged at how well he managed to handle country in time of crisis. Churchill is considered one of the greatest figures in our history, yet he was notoriously poor ruler. We venerate his memory solely because he was great leader in time of crisis. Leader is either leading armies himself due to their warrior nature or are overseeing his subordinates like Abbadon tends to do. Role of supreme leader is not in attending endless events organized by planet's nobles meant to fill your stomach, numb your mind with booze and keep you enchanted with carnal desires. Nor it is a role of backstabbing each other in an endless political bid for power. Nor a good leader is a calculator. You can't put Adeptus Mechanicus representative as Warmaster.

Even during Great Crusade era, power was in hands of generals, warmasters, astartes. Not in hands of artisans, beaurocrats and bean counters. It is they who had built the Imperium and it is they who will tear it apart. When Emperor had died and these civilian vermin came to power, they fostered only stagnation, degradation, corruption, ignorance.

That's overblown. Servitors are typically monotasked because of the ease of manufacture and the ready supply of new components. Servitors can be programmed on the fly or given instructions, or even new masters (Necromunda battle servitors and ambots) Battle refits/upgrades are the enginseers stock in trade- the Thunderer tank is an example of what happens to a damaged Leman russ. Rough terrain modifications and other environmental upgrades are added as needed for a warzone.

That is exactly how it is. Spatha Pattern Combat Servitor. Doomhammer. If you get into bad neighborhood, you will get declared heretek by Adeptus Mechanicus and tortured over decades if not centuries for this. So, how Chaos is worse exactly?

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Servitor
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Doomhammer

That's very imaginative but its not true at all. Soul binding does not remove your soul, it strengthens the mind- and inflicts a lot of agony and nerve damage. The Astropath has touched the divine, and his personality changes, like anyone who had undergone trauma and had a deep revelatory experience. They remain people with hopes fears and foibles, not lobotomised at all.

That is very creative way of saying that person wasn't lobotomized. His ability to feel is slowed, because this process numbs person's nerves and he isn't able to feel as before. He is not able to experience full spectrum of emotion what he used to. His personality change, being touched by divine is very similar process to worship and those Jesus converts. Except one praises the Emperor and another Ruinous Powers. Both become little more than pawns of greater forces beyond them. Though Slaanesh could heal this unfortunate soul if he asks the Goddess for mercy.

They sit at the top of the biggest bureaucracy conceivable, their effectiveness is limited by the scale of galactic governance. They are still the best at their respective fields, when you discount outliers like Cawl, who seemingly repaints Tau equipment blue.

Administration, bureaucracy, central control never works when scale starts expanding. You can see it in real world where small countries are always leaders in everything per capita. The bigger the country is, the more difficult it is to control and to oversee it. The more direct form of government, the least effective it becomes. We can take a look to USA. Despite having every advantage, it is a hellhole compared to small, resource, geopolitically poor countries like Sweeden, Nowaray, Denmark, Switzerland. Though, you had missed point entirely. High lords of Terra are as much threat to humanity as any xenos race. Apocalyptic civil wars were started because of their incompetence and selfish power games. Why you are omitting to tell me that now? The Officio Assassinorum had deposed this council now like two times already for being utterly incompetent and ruled in their place?

Your comparison with the High Lords shows that you do not know much of their history. the Imperium follows the High Lords solely because they are powerful, authorised figureheads. The High Lords are not organizers. They don't run or oversee Imperial words. It is not the Imperial system. The High Lords and the Emperor unify the Imperium into a singular force. This is the High Lords purpose. It is leaders of individual sectors who oversee main aspects of managing their worlds and armies. It is the Mechanicus who oversee production of weapons of war. You are comparing apples to apples.

You ignore most of the lore about them. You get confused about my points and quote text which doesn't even touch High Lords of Terra. It is you who said that a good leader must be organizer. I said that it is not their purpose. Then you continue your argument that I'm wrong, High Lords are not supposed to be organizers and you had effectively copied my argument and applied it in reverse fashion to those bafoons... In the end you just confirm what I had said. Imperium is theocracy. Their power is given and everybody is supposed to obey them merely because.

There is no Dark Munitorum. The Dark Mechanius do not have oaths to supply chaos forces beyond the ones individual chaos warlords can enforce with their daemon sword. They are mad scientists cackling in hell as they shove daemons into new metal forms. They'll accept payment for their services in threats or slaves, necessitating more realspace raids.

Chaos is more or less capable to fight against entire Imperium on equal terms in regards to war material. That involves nonsensical levels of production in order to match galaxy spanning Adeptus Mechanicus cogs. You do not keep producing that much stuff on just threats. If you start thinking about Chaos rationally and not as saturday cartoon villains, you realize that there is even more depth in it that there is in how Imperium functions.

Abaddon is a psychopath trying to beat order out of chaos and hell. The only authority he commands is what he can enforce through the Black Legion. Other soldiers follow him through fear, or through a desire for a return to order (IE: when they served the Imperium), knowing that the nature of chaos is self defeating. The problem is that Abaddon has none of the qualities necessary to create order- he's no diplomat, he's no logistician, he's no builder. He can bully people like that into working for him, but they will still be reporting to a warlord at the end of the day.

This is how world works. Every leader did nothing, but to bully their ministers. Ministers bullied commanders. Commanders bullied ones who are lower than them. Disobey and you get punished, imprisoned, shot or tortured. It is all the same everywhere. I don't see essential difference between a chaos lord and Imperial war machine. Do you want to escape gruelling work, violence and oppression of your home world? Join Imperial guard for better life. In Chaos, do you want to escape your life as menial worker? Prove that you are strong enough to be a soldier and you will get accepted into army. Both are motivated with identical reasons. If one disobeys and argues with Imperial authorities, he will get punished in order to learn to correct his behavior. If he fails to do that, he is imprisoned for life which is worse in my eyes or just shot by commissar. W40k fandom is very eager to make fun of that fact, but somehow manages to completely not to think about it. In Chaos, if you fail to obey your masters, you get beaten up or killed. So tell me, why I should repent and join ranks of Imperium?

 Ernestas wrote:
We can take a look to USA. Despite having every advantage, it is a hellhole compared to small, resource, geopolitically poor countries like Sweeden, Nowaray, Denmark, Switzerland.

We are on a platform discussing psychic powers and chaos gods and that's still the least realistic thing anyone has typed here. You are entitled to your 40,000 & current year fanfiction of course, but please don't pretend they are authoritative.

Briefly though, Dan Abnett tried to portray a sort-of-functional chaos society in the Sabbat Worlds- one that had evolved adjacent to the Imperium, with separate languages and cultural practices. Far from traitor humans, these humans had by and large not known the Imperium.
One of the issues the Chaos forces are struggling with is a succession crisis, their leader was killed on the battlefield at Balhaut and they don't have a clear second in command- just a bunch of lieutenants. Its implied that Sek is the man who was the superior tactician and should have been leader, but Gaur gets the job because he has the strongest military(Blood Pact- its noted that no other chaos human army is the equal of the guard in terms of training and discipline). This is not meritocracy, this is Orkish warlordism.

Sek tries to gain the upper hand by making his own guard equivalent force, based on information provided by a traitor general but is stopped by 12 Guardsmen, lead by a certain Commissar.

Meanwhile, the Imperium had no succession crisis. Though there would have been a line of seniority, Macaroth is appointed by the dying Slaydo in defiance of this. That is meritocracy- as the dying Warmaster knew who had the skills to take the reins and appointed them to lead the crusade to ultimate victory. An Imperial Saint helped, and there are implied forces of justice and order (not specified as the god emperor) in the warp opposed to the chaos gods.

Psychic powers are actually well explained and fully understood. The issue is that GW confined those explanations into limited edition books meaning that absolutely nobody knows about it. Well, except me, because I own a tome of forbidden knowledge!

You tend to cherry pick what you like. Being a better tactician does not mean anything in Chaos if you are not good manager and a leader. One Chaos Lord was more cunning, another had worked harder towards recruiting more followers and personally taking care that his followers are actually good at fighting and are not just bunch of crazed maniacs. That is also a merit and as history had proven, it mattered far more in a long run than being better tactician.

High Lords of Terra never earn their positions. They are granted by their respective organizations to them mostly due to their connections and political careers which are similar to modern day politics. Knowing inside people, you automatically get post, you do not screw up royally and fit in, you are being constantly promoted and depending on your network, you might as well rise to very top. Just look how it is in USA, anyone with connections and money can run for presidency (not talking about Trump, but others).

Determining who will hold the position of High Lord has resulted in millennia of political intrigue between the various bureaucracies seeking to increase their power.

As for succession crisis, there were plenty and all of them were devastating to the Imperium at large.
- War of the Beast power struggle and succession crisis known as Beheading.
- M36 Reign of Blood power struggle had caused Imperial civil war.
- M41 Guiliman had illegally assumed power and dismissed rightful rulers.

I personally would argue strongly against the High Lords being the “rightful rulers” of the Imperium. And also, you’re most definitely not going to become one of the High Lords by “not screwing up royally and fitting in”.

 DalekCheese wrote:
I personally would argue strongly against the High Lords being the “rightful rulers” of the Imperium. And also, you’re most definitely not going to become one of the High Lords by “not screwing up royally and fitting in”.

Why? They're the closest thing to what was planned to rule humanity by the big E.

Meritocracy means that the most experienced, most capable leaders are being elected to positions of power. Chaos lords are notoriously meritocratic

A single glance at the Chaos Lords from the DoW games is enough to prove to opposite.

Well, except for Eliphas.

pm713 wrote:

 DalekCheese wrote:
I personally would argue strongly against the High Lords being the “rightful rulers” of the Imperium. And also, you’re most definitely not going to become one of the High Lords by “not screwing up royally and fitting in”.

Why? They're the closest thing to what was planned to rule humanity by the big E.

Perhaps, and they’re probably the best option in terms of ruling humanity, but what I mean is that they’re not the “rightful” leaders. They may be the best ones, but Guilliman has higher authority- so saying they’re the rightful rulers of humanity when there’s a Primarch around is flawed, I guess.

It is more trouble with how poorly Chaos is portrayed rather than anything else. For example, people love to make fun of Abbadon, but Abbadon is a self made man who had earned everything and had casted down shadow of his father. He leads his Black Crusades, because he had earned this right through his own personal millenia of struggle for it. Many know his memes, but few know of his struggles.

High lords on the other hand are an epitomy of modern meritocracy, though, it is a bad word for it. Here is a primary fundamental issue with it:

The term "meritocracy" was originally intended as a negative concept. One of the primary concerns with meritocracy is the unclear definition of "merit". What is considered as meritorious can differ with opinions as on which qualities are considered the most worthy, raising the question of which "merit" is the highest—or, in other words, which standard is the "best" standard. As the supposed effectiveness of a meritocracy is based on the supposed competence of its officials, this standard of merit cannot be arbitrary and has to also reflect the competencies required for their roles.

In our society, we pretend to promote meritocracy, but what it is really. Do you really think you have a chance of becoming next president? Really? Of course not, no matter of your own personal strength, intellect or hard work you won't get a position which you deserve. These positions are reserved for connected family with a lot of money to burn. We are living in capitalistic society where money is more important than any other single aspect. In W40k, their system is more of theocracy. Posts are given by divine decree to you. For example, if you are planetary governor, you and your family will be forever, because so it must be. Guiliman for example just assumed leadership of an Imperium by his divine decree, but in actuality he had no right to do so. If Imperium would be a meritocracy like Chaos, there would be another Abbadon who would quickly murder Guiliman in personal combat for the right to lead Imperium.

 Ernestas wrote:

The term "meritocracy" was originally intended as a negative concept.[2] One of the primary concerns with meritocracy is the unclear definition of "merit".] What is considered as meritorious can differ with opinions as on which qualities are considered the most worthy, raising the question of which "merit" is the highest—or, in other words, which standard is the "best" standard. As the supposed effectiveness of a meritocracy is based on the supposed competence of its officials, this standard of merit cannot be arbitrary and has to also reflect the competencies required for their roles.

In our society, we pretend to promote meritocracy, but what it is really. Do you really think you have a chance of becoming next president? Really? Of course not, no matter of your own personal strength, intellect or hard work you won't get a position which you deserve. These positions are reserved for connected family with a lot of money to burn. We are living in capitalistic society where money is more important than any other single aspect.

I'll leave realworld politics at the door, but the last few years have convinced me both that you are correct in how corrupt politics has become and wrong in how crazy upsets can occur when the people find their voice.

In W40k, their system is more of theocracy. Posts are given by divine decree to you. For example, if you are planetary governor, you and your family will be forever, because so it must be.

I'm almost certain that the Helmawr dynasty was started by a gang leader who amassed enough power (through gang violence) to overthrow his rivals and seize control of Necromunda. The implication is always that although the odds are weighed against you, you and your gang could do something similar. That would break the setting so it won't happen, but it is possible.

The Adeptus Terra don't really care whose name is on the tithe forms that accompany the shipments of men and materiel- just that they continue. Violent overthrow of local government is only bad if they also renounce the Imperium/Stop the tithes.

Saint Sabbat was a shepherd girl. Her name is marked across a thousand worlds.

Guiliman for example just assumed leadership of an Imperium by his divine decree, but in actuality he had no right to do so. If Imperium would be a meritocracy like Imperium, there would be another Abbadon who would quickly murder Guiliman in personal combat for the right to lead Imperium.

I'm not a huge RG fan, but
(a) Having the Emperor's (most boring)son around as a figurehead is incredibly valuable and uniting for the Imperial populace, his genius and abilities aside.
(b) You are conflating meritocracy with might make right- which often applies locally in the Imperium, but not the upper echelons. Eventually, you'd have to work your way politically through an organisation, and that means results and co-operation, not just violence. Sebastian Thor could not be resisted politically, because of the results and popular support, connections be damned.
(c) Who do you think is going to beat a Primarch in single combat? Even by your chaos standards, Guilliman wins. there may be political factions who would try and engineer his downfall, but they are unlikely to succeed.

We can leave real world politics behind which is always a good idea.

Though, in any system you will find exceptions, but that doesn't change a fact that a system is designed and stacked against you to not succeed while another person needs just to be competent enough to look like everyone else to succeed greatly.

 Ernestas wrote:
We can leave real world politics behind which is always a good idea.

Though, in any system you will find exceptions, but that doesn't change a fact that a system is designed and stacked against you to not succeed while another person needs just to be competent enough to look like everyone else to succeed greatly.

I'd argue that in any system, unless you are actively killing the competent, or have systems deliberately designed to suppress achievement, competence will rise.



One of the themes of the setting is that the common man is ruled over by uncaring unaccountable lords and so on, in a grim hyperbolic reflection of England/Europe's past and the excesses of 20th century totalitarianism. How that plays out locally and how that plays out galactically are often very different.It's difficult to talk about the Imperium generally in local terms, as you would have free market economies operating beside hereditary fiefdoms, competing with feudal corporate serfdoms. There's such a wide range of governance styles that its always possible to point to an example where people are oppressed or relatively free or whatever.

That very range of possibilities is the reason I'd say that where it matters (for protagonists) meritocracy exists. If the other helot workers in foundry 1984-b had what it takes, they would be protagonists too. As is, they exist as background setting for Yerrk Arakt'r, a young man who has the opportunity to:
-Advance his position through science! and important discoveries
-Seize power leading a bloody coup
-Stowaway through the stars on a ship bound for adventure
-Join the Imperial Guard and fight for glory
-Be noticed by an impossibly large man, then spirited away
-Uncover a dark secret, and get caught up in events beyond your ken

Alternatively, he could be crushed on the cusp of success by a cruel supervisor for daring to dream above his station. That would be pretty grimdark.

My point is that once Prota Gunnest gets underway from his humble beginnings, having found his aptitude for technology, manufacture, strategy, derring do or what have you, they'll be able to succeed in that field, barring sensible ideological institutional blocks- the Mechanicus won't tolerate you developing an AI for example.

Humanity does not progress always forwards when it is left to its own devices. Remember Egypt. Iran, Turkey, Roman Empire, Chinese Empire. There are countless examples of nations and people being most advanced in the world only to fall first into stagnation and later decay. It is human nature to only strive for something when there is lack of something. When there isn't any lack of anything, civilization falls into self in chase for sensations and hedonism.

-I would argue that most of these things are impossible. There is no adventure as you need an exclusive permit from high lords themselves I think to become a rogue trader. Not mentioning ridiculous up front fortune for it.
-Being smart in Imperium is actually a disadvantage. It is empire which proudly proclaims that intellect is mask for traitors and there is virtue in ignorance. All knowledge is greedly hoarded by tech priests and any modification or your own innovation is a crime of a highest order.

The only way to escape for Imperial citizen is to join the guard. Though, that is only changing one evil for another. Now you are a part of a massive army where you are just a statistic.

Imperium is theocracy based simply on how it justifies its power. High Lords, Inquisition and Space Marines being the highest authorities in the Imperium justifies their authority as coming directly from the Emperor. Emperor as we all known is seen as God. This would be like president saying that he has complete authority, because God had destined him to rule your nation. After that, it is actually managed, organised and run by feudalism where every planet or sector is essentially authority of its own. Even monolithic organisations like Adeptus Mechanicus really doesn't talk with itself. Hence we see technologies which are widely believed to be "lost to the Imperium" are just casually used on other worlds with no issues whatsoever.

Other factors contributed to the falls of those civilisations, or most of them, at least.

You do, but once you’ve got it, your family’s got it for all eternity.

Officially, yes. But in the Mechanicus, at least, there’s a lot of leeway for individual advancement, as long as it’s not too heretical.

On the last point, however, I agree with you. The Imperium is a theocracy, albeit one with overtones of Nazi Germany and the USSR (and all the worst bits of the modern world, too).

I do agree with you. Adeptus Mechanicus allows you to progress based on your merit. Though, "too heretical" is a question on its own. I feel that Adeptus Mechanicus judges everything to be heretical when done by someone of low ranking within an order while forge masters are practically allowed to commit tech heresies and regular heresies for breakfast and it is fine.

 Ernestas wrote:
I feel that Adeptus Mechanicus judges everything to be heretical when done by someone of low ranking within an order while forge masters are practically allowed to commit tech heresies and regular heresies for breakfast and it is fine.

No, that’s not true. Even high-ranking Tech-Magi have been killed as hereteks for relatively tiny infractions.