Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When people refer to warp entities such as Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, Isha, Cergorach, Gork, Mork, etc., are they actually considered literal gods or just beings from another dimension that have powers that we cannot fathom?

Both?

Seriously though, the books never try to properly explain them and pretty much state that there really isn't an effective difference. God's and demons are the best words we have to define them and they don't seem eager to correct those they come in contact with.

I'll bite.

How do you define the difference between the two options? I mean, both ideas seem mutually inclusive of the other.

Would not a god of any kind qualify as an extra-dimensional entity? That's kind of the main premise being being a deity.

All gods are extra-dimensional beings. But not all extra-dimensional beings are gods. So its more of a question of power level. A god is an extra-dimensional being that has such an extreme level of power that puts it a class above other potential extra-dimensional beings. That power could be of a very specific and limited nature, but within that scope the entity is unmatched. Any creature that is significantly weaker is not a god, but still has some power. And it might be referred to as a demon, spirit, angel, etc...

Yes, within the 40k setting those beings are most definitely considered literal gods. Even those who don't worship them will generally not dispute their existence. The Eldar don't deny that Gork, Mork, Slannesh, Tzeentch, etc... are gods. They are painfully aware that they are. They just don't follow them.

Ultimately, god is just a word that describes something. Its an arbitrary mental construct that mortals use to try to fathom the concept of a powerful extra-dimensional entity that is worthy of veneration and worship. Call it what you will, it does not change the nature of what you are describing.

You will have to provide the definition you're using for 'god' before it can be answered.

The abrahamic god is a singular being, axiomatically singular.

The pantheons of gods, like the Greeks and Vikings are not as singular.

Most gods of antiquity have some control over the weather as part of their domains.

By comparison to gods of antiquity, the chaos gods seem fairly compatible

I are also assuming that the warp is another dimension as opposed to something completely other. The whole point of the warp is it defies definition. If you try to apply finite language to it you will come unstuck. Are the gods even entities? They are manifest from pure emotion, and entirely unsubstantial thing.

So I agree gods and demons are words we have to apply to these things but are really lacking due to their nature. Bear in mind a normal person encountering either demons or the warp is usual driven mad to the point of death, it is so far beyond our comprehension.

I guess what I was getting at was something along the lines of what H.P. Lovecraft thought of between "gods" and "extra-dimensional beings". For example, Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth aren't gods in a literal sense, but are merely extraterrestrial beings that transcend our own understanding. I agree that it is hard to gods from extra-dimensional beings, as they could be considered one and the same.

 Psionara wrote:
I guess what I was getting at was something along the lines of what H.P. Lovecraft thought of between "gods" and "extra-dimensional beings". For example, Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth aren't gods in a literal sense, but are merely extraterrestrial beings that transcend our own understanding. I agree that it is hard to gods from extra-dimensional beings, as they could be considered one and the same.

You have to define what the difference is before it can be answered. Yahweh is not from this dimension but the greek Gods are.

Bile knows them for what they are.

“The gods you worship are nothing save lies, hidden behind masks of folklore and superstition. Interdimensional cancers, their mindless hunger confused for sentience by the lost and the damned.”

“No gods,’ he repeated. ‘Random confluence of celestial phenomena. Interdimensional disasters, echoing outwards through our perceptions. I think, therefore I am. They do not, so they are not.”

I'm not trusting a man who needs to swap bodies every few weeks because he's that sick.

pm713 wrote:
I'm not trusting a man who needs to swap bodies every few weeks because he's that sick.

Well, yeah. Bile is the extreme end of the scale being written like every insufferable atheist you’ve ever met.

Hellebore wrote:
You will have to provide the definition you're using for 'god' before it can be answered.

The abrahamic god is a singular being, axiomatically singular.

The pantheons of gods, like the Greeks and Vikings are not as singular.

Most gods of antiquity have some control over the weather as part of their domains.

By comparison to gods of antiquity, the chaos gods seem fairly compatible

Whilst the abrahamic god does claim to be the only god, he no more claims conceptual exclusivity of the term than he does the term lord. Hell, I’d argue lord and god both equally fail to, if you go by the omnipotent interpretation, encapsulate the totality of an omnipotent being,

Anyhow I suppose whether the high end warp entities qualify as gods or not depends on whether you include “worthy of worship” as an inherent requirement of your definition. The chaos gods are rather definitively not worthy of anyone’s worship, but they certainly are extremely powerful spiritual entities that personify something.

(Personally I’d consider anyone who demands fervent bowing and scraping, singing songs of praise an egomaniac not worthy of worship regardless of who they are or what they’ve done, but I guess that’s just me)
P

People who want the Chaos Gods to count as gods define 'god' so that they qualify. People who don't want the Chaos Gods to count as gods define 'god' in such a way that they don't qualify.

The whole thing just seems pointlessly circular.

In W40k lore Gods are literal Gods like we would understand God in our world. It is ever present, ever watching, ever capable, but usually choosing to do nothing. There isn't a possible manifestation of a God like an entity which human mind could comprehend. Not even Primarchs were given that right. When Lorgar went out to see Gods, he only met their messengers who were granted right to speak in their name and this event for them was the most important thing in entire timeline. This was so, because Lorgar had to make an actual choice to worship Chaos and his allegiance or actions were not pre-determinted. In order to highlight the importance of this event, Tzeentch (Kyros double headed demon I believe) for once shut his clever mouth and said to Lorgar truth and only truth with no strings attached. Due to evidence to lore, we can strongly state that Gods in W40k do not behave like some kind of super greater demon, but rather are actual Gods like one in Abrahamic fate. God which we acknowledge as existing, but one which simply far beyond our comprehension that we can't even begin explaining it.

They're super-natural, have a vast meta-physical impact on their corresponding domains in real-space, and their Great Game impacts all the realities.

I do like that Fabius rejects their divinity even when Slaanesh winks at him though. That's some hardcore atheism.

Nurglitch wrote:
They're super-natural, have a vast meta-physical impact on their corresponding domains in real-space, and their Great Game impacts all the realities.

I do like that Fabius rejects their divinity even when Slaanesh winks at him though. That's some hardcore atheism.

It’s a beautiful hypocrisy. Bile is essentially a god to billions of life forms who worship him as such yet he rejects the entire idea of gods, fate and destiny.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
They're super-natural, have a vast meta-physical impact on their corresponding domains in real-space, and their Great Game impacts all the realities.

I do like that Fabius rejects their divinity even when Slaanesh winks at him though. That's some hardcore atheism.

It’s a beautiful hypocrisy. Bile is essentially a god to billions of life forms who worship him as such yet he rejects the entire idea of gods, fate and destiny.

I don't see the hypocrisy in it.

To an extent he is right in that the Chaos Gods are just weird creatures from a different dimension, fate and destiny are malleable and unfixed and he definitely isn't divine so worship doesn't make you a god.

 Psionara wrote:
When people refer to warp entities such as Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, Isha, Cergorach, Gork, Mork, etc., are they actually considered literal gods or just beings from another dimension that have powers that we cannot fathom?

I am sure you can find peple who consider them one those or both. But most would probably not consider them either if they have not heard of them.

They're gods in the Sigmar setting and extra dimensional entities in 40k.

Just like Sigmar has magic, and 40k has psychic powers.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
They're super-natural, have a vast meta-physical impact on their corresponding domains in real-space, and their Great Game impacts all the realities.

I do like that Fabius rejects their divinity even when Slaanesh winks at him though. That's some hardcore atheism.

It’s a beautiful hypocrisy. Bile is essentially a god to billions of life forms who worship him as such yet he rejects the entire idea of gods, fate and destiny.

Pretty much the same argument Lorgar had with his grandfather....

The best hypocrisy of Bile is trying to fix the blight killing him without ever recognizing it as a scorching case of soul herpes. It's his own ripening soul that's killing him, which makes you think about how early Fulgrim was corrupted if it at all parallels Magnus' repair of the Thousand Sons' flesh change.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
They're super-natural, have a vast meta-physical impact on their corresponding domains in real-space, and their Great Game impacts all the realities.

I do like that Fabius rejects their divinity even when Slaanesh winks at him though. That's some hardcore atheism.

It’s a beautiful hypocrisy. Bile is essentially a god to billions of life forms who worship him as such yet he rejects the entire idea of gods, fate and destiny.

In this moment, is he euphoric?

 Grimtuff wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
They're super-natural, have a vast meta-physical impact on their corresponding domains in real-space, and their Great Game impacts all the realities.

I do like that Fabius rejects their divinity even when Slaanesh winks at him though. That's some hardcore atheism.

It’s a beautiful hypocrisy. Bile is essentially a god to billions of life forms who worship him as such yet he rejects the entire idea of gods, fate and destiny.

That isn't particularly hypocritical. Even though its useful, he doesn't want or need their worship, and sees it as a weakness he needs to remove from them (or their replacements).
In fact, that they worship him clearly feeds his belief that worshiping anything is a waste of time.

Ernestas wrote:In W40k lore Gods are literal Gods like we would understand God in our world. It is ever present, ever watching, ever capable, but usually choosing to do nothing. There isn't a possible manifestation of a God like an entity which human mind could comprehend. Not even Primarchs were given that right. When Lorgar went out to see Gods, he only met their messengers who were granted right to speak in their name and this event for them was the most important thing in entire timeline. This was so, because Lorgar had to make an actual choice to worship Chaos and his allegiance or actions were not pre-determinted. In order to highlight the importance of this event, Tzeentch (Kyros double headed demon I believe) for once shut his clever mouth and said to Lorgar truth and only truth with no strings attached. Due to evidence to lore, we can strongly state that Gods in W40k do not behave like some kind of super greater demon, but rather are actual Gods like one in Abrahamic fate. God which we acknowledge as existing, but one which simply far beyond our comprehension that we can't even begin explaining it.

Its very much best NOT to bring real world religions into this.
The gods in 40k are knowable and have measurable impacts on the setting, slapping people down and giving them gifts that can only come from divine intervention. They're far more provably real (within the setting) than any comparable entity in the real world.
They don't need to be understood to know they exist, when an unsatisfactory sacrifice spontaneously turns you into a dog-faced mass of tentacles, or a correct sacrifice opens an extra dimensional gate and daemons march through to kill things at your command in the god's name.

If you can grind a world underfoot solely by blood and sacrifices and slaughter every living thing on it, being confused about gods is simple-minded. Reality is far more complex.

Extra dimensional beings. Not gods.

If you're going to try to bring real world religions into the discussion, for sanity's sake you better be bringing in polytheistic religions or religions that are further along the religion<->philosophy scale.

The four Chaos powers may as well be myths reflecting the mass hysterias and similar situations that happen when human beings are exposed to too many warp storms. Because:
1. These beings are described as living places where no one can actually go.
2. They communicate through individuals who can uncharitably described as raving mad men.
3. Or those being communicate through warp entities that can uncharitably described as liars.

I mean, really. Someone's supposed to take the word of a twenty foot tall two headed bird looking thing for granted about whether Tzeentch is real?

Disclaimer: This is a setting in which extra-dimensional creatures called "daemons" are real. Yet people casually dismiss the claims of Tech Priests saying that vehicles and complex machinery have 'machine spirits' which animate them. In spite of the fact that those same Tech Priests have enough knowledge to hook up living or dead people to machines and force the person to pilot that machine. Because it's an Imperial cult, all that human sacrifice is harmless and okay. *shrug*

I must admit, I do rather like the idea that the Chaos Gods might just be some daemon's Canadian girlfriend.

"The Gods are too great and powerful to manifest in your puny realm, mortal. I am Their herald and will convey Their ineffable will to your fragile mortal ears. But They totally exist and are not just something I made up to impress you, honest..."

The more recent fluff (as well as all the terrain kits with skulls wired into door control panels and computer terminals) implies 'machine spirits' are mostly chunks of human brain tissue used as computer processors because silicon chips are too close to Abominable Intelligence territory. Of course, using bits of brain from a naturally psychic species like humans is going to give those biological computer 'chips' a Warp presence, hence the 'spirit' part (and also the risk of daemonic possession).

Religions are definitely more interesting than their putative gods, particularly if you understand a religion as stating a particular relationship with whatever gods it acknowledges. I kind of wish that there was more discussion of the various religions of the Traitor Legions and so on.

Chris Wraight's excellent "The Lords of Silence" touches on it, noting how various characters think about their religion, and advise each other to learn more. As religions go, the faith that Vorx and company follow is pretty interesting.

Yeah, wouldn't that be the cake of the setting: The warp, as a psycho-reactive medium, in the presence of undisciplined/untrained minds manifests things in a manner that causes a feedback reaction.

A shape starts forming, the mind witnessing it jumps to a conclusion and the form solidifies.

A bunch of marines on board a ship get delayed in a warp storm, and a confluence of fears results in a warp manifested disease spreading through the crew. And then once it's happening, the crew falls to despair and their conviction resulting from making a pact with "Nurgle" changes the warp manifested disease into something else.

It's exactly the sort of thing that blind fanatical belief in "The Emperor will protect you" would protect you from, or the complete absence of superstition would protect you from. But they've got a universe filled with people who aren't either of those things. Is "The entire crew of the ship was killed by a disease created by a nightmare one of the crew had" better or worse than blaming Nurgle for the plague that wipes out a ship? Or you get someone with a normal disease, latent psychic abilities, and spot where the separation between the warp is thin, and they manifest some twisted form of their hopes and fears. (And it makes the idea of Chaos a contagious problem, doesn't it? -If- you could eliminate all of the witnesses to a demon incursion, you'd prevent the idea spreading, right?)

It sure is a coincidence, all of those beaks and feathers on the Tzeentch demons, compared to all of that eagle iconography that the Imperium has.

This has been the impromptu "A Defense of Skeptiscism and Atheism in the 40k Universe". We now permit you to return to trying to decide what four named entities no one has been encountered in a well documented or corroborated circumstance are.

Its important to not that a chaos "god" cant easily manipulate things in this world. A "True" god would not have any difficulty enacting its will any where in the universe. Conversely it would not find it easier to manifest its desires in certain locations, like the Eye of Terror. The chaos gods and their servants are extra dimensional beings that cant operate well outside their home dimension. Just like humans cant survive at the bottom of the ocean without a lot of help.

 Red Marine wrote:
Its important to not that a chaos "god" cant easily manipulate things in this world. A "True" god would not have any difficulty enacting its will any where in the universe. Conversely it would not find it easier to manifest its desires in certain locations, like the Eye of Terror. The chaos gods and their servants are extra dimensional beings that cant operate well outside their home dimension. Just like humans cant survive at the bottom of the ocean without a lot of help.

That's your definition of a true God, based in monotheistic omnipotence.

But in the history of our world where the term God was invented, the overwhelming majority of gods are not omnipotent.