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Made in us
Rogue





I was reading a review of Riot Quest on boardgamegeek (because I googled Riot Quest hoping to see something newer than 4 months old), and while it was a glowing review of Riot Quest, I've been dwelling on this last line: "Lastly, these figs are compatible with WarmaHordes. (To which I say, nice, but ultimately those games are dying so not a huge selling point.)"

This isn't the only place I see this term. It pops up in my meta's discord--albeit ironically at times, as well as other places online. The way Warmachine is mentioned in passing on GMG Let's Talk also indicates that there is a pervasive belief that Warmachine is a dying game.

Although people have been speculating about the SKU death of the game since Superiority in Mk 1 (or even before, but I wasn't tracking), the game has persisted--and even thrived at times. However, we now live in an age of mass targeted media consumption, and people coming into contact with Warmachine might be dissuaded by these perceptions. The distributor woes, and some dude gakking the bed on GlassDoor last year didn't help either.

What can be done to reverse this perception?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

I don't play myself, but I'd imagine calling it a dying game in the thread title can't particularly help reverse it.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

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Krazed Killa Kan





SoCal

Only PP can reverse this perception by actually changing the game in ways that their hardcore won't expect, or like. Their hardcore have kept the game limping along, but now it's holding it back. This is why they're pulling jump to space fantasy.

But despite how down I am on the state of Warmachine, I don't think it's dead or dying. It's in yet another major downswing after a combination of mismanagement (micromanagement of the wrong things), poor investment in manufacturing, and market forces turning against them (40K and AoS turning around and becoming popular again).

It's a few more missteps away from dying under PP, but it's also a few changes away from coming back.

Warmachine launched in 2003, but despite using an app for a lot of things, it still feels like an app from 2003.

   
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Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







I find the biggest issue is that WMH requires more concentration to play than most wargames, so players come off as standoffish and unfriendly when people wander up to the table in their FLGS and ask them about it.

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Regular Dakkanaut





washington state USA

It is not a dying game, there is a lot of animosity toward the company for marketing and other business decisions not the game itself. the only thing that tryhards are upset about is that MKIII has brought all factions in the game into close proximity power level of competitiveness so there is not the extremes in over VS underpowered factions anymore. some players don't like it when you change their performance curve.

For example in MKI CRYX always won. they were top dog at every event and in casual play. now they are mid pack. if anything I blame the attitude of some in the player base for the lack of growth in the WM/H community in recent months.

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

I think also not having their own PG program any more really hurt them the most. Having one person at each club with a personal invested interest in promoting a game does a VAST amount for marketing and keeping the game alive. Having someone who's volunteer "job" is to recruit new people; do demo games; organist events; make sure people are playing etc.... is a huge thing when you don't have hundreds of shops of your own doing that.

Especially as the general view is that many 3rd party stores are not really "pushing" wargames and would rather push magic the gathering and other card games. Fairs fair to the store those card games seem to generate far more profit and sales for the store and are much easier to stock than wargames.

However it means your wargame at a local level might only get promotion if the store owner happens to be a player/enjoys the game.


I think PP made a series of small to medium blunders in quick succession at the same time GW started to turn the tables on their own blunders. The combined effect was a dramatic fall off of players. IT doesn't help that, online, PP also self-gutted their own forums which were once the focus point for their community; and they've not really picked up the slack on Facebook themselves form what I can see.

There were also issues with them trying to shift into plastics that came back and bit them hard.


Personally I also think that they've bloated their own game system and really need to pause and consider making a Warmachine game in two parts - one part large armies and one part skirmish. Rather than trying to have a single system for both which has resulted in some limiting choices - eg the push toward having theme list based armies only and cutting out a chunk of army building an choice for players. Balance wise it makes sense as you basically try to take big diverse armies and make them into smaller sub-armies; however in practice I think it makes for less "choice" for players as from one army they can't "put down what they want" so easily and remain decently competitive

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Wicked Warp Spider





Part of it is the ever increasing cost of mini's as they are now on a par with, or exceed. the Geedubs but wildly swings in quality from 'worse than boardgame minis" to "mostly okay"

Part of it is PP not really trying to push it themselves, relying on hobby heroes or stores to push it is dink think

The previously mentioned SKU bloat, yes there are get started boxes but they are sort of pricey and thanks to PP's flakey logistics a major PITA to obtain outside the US

The wide range of options, at time of Mk1, it was broadly Warhammer, WMH, now there's a squillon options a click away

Fingers crossed Neo-Mek is the low model count I'm hoping for (and cheaper than the Marvel game !)

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Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

I can only give the testimonies that I have received from my local meta. It was a combination of ThemeMachine, "We only play Steamroller here", and other games being more accessible.

The introduction of Mk 3 and the Themes that came along with it, replicated the same disastrous Formations of 7th Ed 40K. If you didn't play in Theme, you were playing at fewer points and fewer rules than your opponent was. This was even worse when you had to do a lot of research in order to find out what qualified in your army to build that way, making it less desirable for the quick pick up game.

This left only the hypercompetitive and the stubborn left (consider me in that last category), who ignored anything but the Steamroller mantra. Some would complain about the lack of narrative games/events, etc, but wouldn't buy the No Quarter that had many of those things in there, and the people left largely didn't bother opening themselves up to those games anyway. Pick up games for WMH were not very common before ThemeMachine, and became less so afterwards.

When Mk 3 launched, AoS was just finishing its first year under the General's Handbook, and popularity was resurging. 40K had rebooted their game in to 8th Edition, making it simpler and less rules intense, as well as getting rid of the Formation mess. X-Wing was showing to be a mostly balanced game and didn't require any hobbying to play.

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Regular Dakkanaut




You see posts about warmahordes dying because
- models are gone from flag stores in broad places (like europe)
- distributors dont have models
- Its more difficult to get models
- overall impression is that numbers of players are shrinking
- few new players are recruted.
- game is gone from top selling list
- at the same time other miniature games are having good times.

The game is not dying, but it is in a rough spot. For several reasons.

PP seem to have accepted this themselves. They are pouring resources into monpoc, riotquest and the new warmachine in space. If warmachine in space is a flop i would be really worried.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/28 17:13:33


 
   
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





America

anecdotal evidence only. Warmachine in Austin TX surged really hard when mk 3 launched, but lost a large chunk when theme forces hit.

The big Austin store as a tourney once a month held by the hard core faithful that 4 people show up to.

So ..for our local meta..yeah its definitely on its last leg

Age Quod Agis 
   
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Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





It used to be huge in my city. I haven't seen it in a few years now.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

I think, if anything, WMH hit it's lowest point a few years ago. Mark III came out, what, late summer of 2015? The fact that it's still being updated, played, and bought is a sign of life.

I don't think it's a dying game. Dying games don't have regular releases if both models and updates.

that said, it's clearly a more niche game than it was in the heyday of Mark II. I think PP realized that between a few blunders and GW's resurgence, it was never going to regain that market share. Hell, I'd argue that even if PP hadn't made any blunders, they'd be gutted by new 40k and the AOS bounce back. At some point, there's just so big a game can get, and so big a model range can get. Shifting to a more direct sales model with smaller sales but higher margins can keep the game profitable, which will help keep it supported.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





The online community got incredibly toxic when MK3 hit. I stepped away, not from the game, but the community simply because I've never seen so much effort put into imploding on oneself. I think when a bunch of players seemed hellbent on dying on the hill of "technically can't charge knocked down models" was about the point where I checked out of the drama.

Truthfully, the game's biggest problem is a lack of new players and it just not working well with changes to distribution. As far as the negativity is concerned, the new players seems to be the primary issue. As much as people found excuses, personally knowing a good number of them, I know a lot of it was just getting old and life. A lot of prominent players got married and had kids near the end of MK2 and relearning the system just wasn't a priority. I fell into that camp as well and while I didn't seek out an excuse to leave, I played with a lot less effort and more fun. That's all well and good, but without a new generation of try hards to champion the game, the community took every opportunity it got to destroy itself. :(
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

I think the idea that nothing can touch GW is false, I think if PP works at it and establishes where the problems are they can grow again. Its hard and it would take a huge amount to move them up to GW's size; but I could see PP restore themselves to a healthy position.

I think they've just got to perhaps shift to MKIV rules system and use that as a launchpad to in effect relaunch their own game system. Coupled to a big marketing push; coupled to some kind of community program so that they can get some form of PG like system going again.

What direction they take the game is hard to say, In some ways I think they allmost need to go back to their core ideals. Rules in the box/ cards on the table. I think one problem they've found is that trying to build a living game rules edition kinda only works so far with a physical product and game line. Many people don't use apps for gaming; many dislike continual changes to the game rules and stats. Many just want to "open the box and play".

Furthermore whilst increased balance is good it seems PP has increased it by cutting down on choices through the themes system. I think that has turned people away because they see a single big army and they get ideas of what they'd like to build as an army then the theme system railroads them into pre-defined segments.
Now you get this happen in any game balance system anyway; but the theme system really enforces it powerfully.


AoS does the very same thing to control players. Only with AoS what GW did was use battletomes and allegiance abilities coupled to restricted allies systems to basically promote individual armies. And you see that in the armies people make and use; they are using full armies not souped even though the rules allow for it. It's a system where the restrictions - I think -benefit the marketing and the idea that the marketing and lore puts in a customers mind so it gets taking up really easily and happily.

PP is at odds with itself because all their marketing prior to the MKIII themed change is all showing you these big varied armies where all you were bound to was your warcaster choice - one model. Now they've bound it further and I think people dislike that even if they like the increased balance of the system.



I'd really like to think that PP is working on a MKIV and a big marketing campaign. I'd love to see the game soar back again into popularity.
They've clearly not abandoned the game and I don't think they will, its just not in its best shape right now; especially for outreach and getting new bums on seats. PP has a lag time of a good few years whils that's ok for them. Their competitive market will keep things alive. The risk is that they leave it too many years and they get generation gaps and miss out big generations of new gamers because the bigger the generation gap you get the harder it is to get younger people into your game.

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 LunarSol wrote:
The online community got incredibly toxic when MK3 hit. I stepped away, not from the game, but the community simply because I've never seen so much effort put into imploding on oneself. I think when a bunch of players seemed hellbent on dying on the hill of "technically can't charge knocked down models" was about the point where I checked out of the drama.


I remember that somewhat differently. PP lost its online community because it decided they were superfluous to requirements and purged them.
Telling your fans that they're not necessary or even welcome tends to piss them off.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Fixture of Dakka




UK

Voss wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
The online community got incredibly toxic when MK3 hit. I stepped away, not from the game, but the community simply because I've never seen so much effort put into imploding on oneself. I think when a bunch of players seemed hellbent on dying on the hill of "technically can't charge knocked down models" was about the point where I checked out of the drama.


I remember that somewhat differently. PP lost its online community because it decided they were superfluous to requirements and purged them.
Telling your fans that they're not necessary or even welcome tends to piss them off.


I think it was a bit of both, but I do think PP made the first step when they gutted their own forum. Which was honestly really surprising because they had a very active and engaged forum at a time when Facebook was rising up really powerfully. It was a huge waste I think and the wrong choice. I think PP sort of hoped that the community would pick up the slack, but at the same time I dont' think they realised that the community wasn't going to because it wasn't wanting too. I've seen forums die when users drift onto other services and sites - that happens. However PP tried forcing it in a half hearted way which left people half on their forums and half feeling like they'd been kicked out by the company they were paying money to support.


I think BOTH sides had issues, I do think PP made a first major step. That said they likely see it that they were perhaps reacting to increased negative feedback on a service that should be positive and promoting their game. So they might well have felt that their action was a reaction in itself. It might also be linked to the voluntary staff situation again with the forum being moderated by volunteers and PP not wanting to get sued or even the hint of a threat of being sued and didn't feel that they could pay staff to moderate the forums themselves. So again PP might have made choices that weren't the best, but were made for logical reasons and not spite or hate or anything like that.

Suffice it to say that on its own its nto a disaster; but done with the other things that happened all around the same time they each compounded each other.

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Regular Dakkanaut






I, for one, like Mk3 more than Mk2. I'm not a tournament player and I play just with my buddies, so know nothing about Steamroller and balance. But do you remember when in Mk2 people used to complain the game should be called Infantrymachine? Now we have a greater presence of stompy robots on our tables (and people are complaining about the lack of infantry, because people have to complain) and I'm quite happy with it.
Nothing is perfect (I miss wreck markers, I found them quite thematic, but they could be abused, apparently). Also now I have double Primal sources in both Farrows and Circle, while I'd love some more variety (how good was the Mk2 Battle Boar animus? How much it lasted, before Mk3 dropped? One month? What a joke) but I overall love the current edition.

About it's eventual "death", I don't care too much. I currently play "dead" games already (Dark Age, for example. One of the best systems I ever played, thanks CMoN for the umpteenth Zombicide KS nobody (should) care about) and I can see myself playing Warmachine for the time to come, being it supported or not, even if no tournament will be organized (not interested) or new models will be released (there are already enough models to buy and keep me busy for years already).

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Overread wrote:

I think it was a bit of both, but I do think PP made the first step when they gutted their own forum. Which was honestly really surprising because they had a very active and engaged forum at a time when Facebook was rising up really powerfully. It was a huge waste I think and the wrong choice. I think PP sort of hoped that the community would pick up the slack, but at the same time I dont' think they realised that the community wasn't going to because it wasn't wanting too. I've seen forums die when users drift onto other services and sites - that happens. However PP tried forcing it in a half hearted way which left people half on their forums and half feeling like they'd been kicked out by the company they were paying money to support.


The forum was largely gutted because it was volunteer run using more or less the same system as the PG. The players also relentless mocked the forums and it was a mess of faction infighting. A lot of people had already jumped to Facebook and PP was putting a lot of effort into that and Twitter. It made sense to me from a squeaky wheel perspective, but I don't think PP appreciated how many new players used the forum and how much that relied on the older players hanging out there. What's left is still fine for new players, but they lack a passionate base of experience players to respond to new player questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:

I remember that somewhat differently. PP lost its online community because it decided they were superfluous to requirements and purged them.
Telling your fans that they're not necessary or even welcome tends to piss them off.


I'm always surprised how personal of a view people take when systems get shut down. I was a PG that spent a lot of times on the forums, but I would never say I felt "purged". I still don't love Twitter and Facebook as community hubs (I'm here after all), but I also get that forums just aren't what they used to be and sometimes I need to start using something new simply because that's where the community is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/28 18:57:16


 
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




 Overread wrote:


I think BOTH sides had issues, I do think PP made a first major step. That said they likely see it that they were perhaps reacting to increased negative feedback on a service that should be positive and promoting their game.


Given that it was an attitude they created, fostered and pushed hard, especially for the first five-six years, I find myself incredibly unsympathetic.

They slathered the game and themselves in the 'play like you got a pair' mentality, where anything that wasn't perfect was rejected, so its unsurprising that the playerbase followed suit by being critical of anything that didn't live up to PP's own standards.

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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 aphyon wrote:
the only thing that tryhards are upset about is that MKIII has brought all factions in the game into close proximity power level of competitiveness so there is not the extremes in over VS underpowered factions anymore. some players don't like it when you change their performance curve.



Literally no-one is upset about that, particularly because your statements about balance simply aren't true. The games factions remained horribly unbalanced in general.

For example in MKI CRYX always won. they were top dog at every event and in casual play. now they are mid pack. if anything I blame the attitude of some in the player base for the lack of growth in the WM/H community in recent months.


Also simply untrue, Cryx is still a powerhouse when fielded in certain themes.

I don't think it's a dying game. Dying games don't have regular releases if both models and updates.


An important distinction needs to be made here - Warmachine/Hordes *doesn't* have regular releases of models and updates - Riot Quest does, the majority of models released over the last few months and scheduled for release over the next 6+ month are Riot Quest minis given rules in WMHDs. PP seems to have partially abandoned/stepped back from the narrative of Warmachine and is instead focusing on the release of Riot Quest's "alt history" Iron Kingdoms. The CID schedule and updates in general for core Warmachine/Hordes rules has slowed to an absolute crawl, and outside of the newly released faction and the Oblivion campaign book there hasn't been much in the way of "pure" Warmachine/Hordes releases. It's also worth noting that over the last 2-3 years the majority of new releases for WMHDs proper have been for the new "limited" factions (Grymkin, Crucible Guard, Infernals), the existing factions have had to settle for access to mercenaries and solos/attachments. PP has all but ceased updating existing factions with new Warbeasts/Warjacks and unit boxes. This goes hand-in-hand with the Riot Quest releases, as those are all essentially solos/attachments.


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Longtime Dakkanaut





chaos0xomega wrote:
PP seems to have partially abandoned/stepped back from the narrative of Warmachine and is instead focusing on the release of Riot Quest's "alt history" Iron Kingdoms.


The Hengehold Scrolls twitter account is actually pretty great. Bitesize bits of lore every day reads a lot better than the way these things have traditionally been done either through the books or insiders. In part that's because the fluff has always worked better as more of a highlight reel, in part because of the quality of the writing and in part because it's a universe that thrives on big turns of fate more than character interactions.

In terms of release schedule, I think CID kind of blunts the impact of new releases. We've seen a ton of stuff released for the Morrowans in the last couple months and starting next month the clockwork angels are getting quite a few new releases. The main problem is just that the excitement for that stuff was spent months ago. It doesn't feel new or interesting; its just kind of tedious living in a game state where these things are both old hat and unavailable.
   
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Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I cannot go to a shop anywhere within several hundred kilometers of my location and buy warmachine miniatures any more, so I think that might be a pretty major problem. The EU is the worlds biggest single market, and it's richest, if you can't manage to keep your game in stock here then you are not really a big player any more.

   
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 Da Boss wrote:
I cannot go to a shop anywhere within several hundred kilometers of my location and buy warmachine miniatures any more, so I think that might be a pretty major problem. The EU is the worlds biggest single market, and it's richest, if you can't manage to keep your game in stock here then you are not really a big player any more.


It's very much an issue of the SKU bloat. Distributors aren't restocking products... like, in general. There's too much new stuff across the industry to bother wasting warehouse space on the odd chance that some store might suddenly want to stock Magnus1 or.... IDK, Kossites or something. It's an industry wide problem, but PP is absolutely suffering the worst of it in no small part because rather than make changes as the industry did; they were pretty happy for too long to let online shops solve their inventory management problems for them. Other games have adapted (even GW with all the limited edition box sets) or were just born into it. PP remains pretty crippled by a game designed to support a retail system that just isn't practical anymore.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 LunarSol wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I cannot go to a shop anywhere within several hundred kilometers of my location and buy warmachine miniatures any more, so I think that might be a pretty major problem. The EU is the worlds biggest single market, and it's richest, if you can't manage to keep your game in stock here then you are not really a big player any more.


It's very much an issue of the SKU bloat. Distributors aren't restocking products... like, in general. There's too much new stuff across the industry to bother wasting warehouse space on the odd chance that some store might suddenly want to stock Magnus1 or.... IDK, Kossites or something. It's an industry wide problem, but PP is absolutely suffering the worst of it in no small part because rather than make changes as the industry did; they were pretty happy for too long to let online shops solve their inventory management problems for them. Other games have adapted (even GW with all the limited edition box sets) or were just born into it. PP remains pretty crippled by a game designed to support a retail system that just isn't practical anymore.


Well SKU bloat is an issue. But not all of it.

Its not uncommen to hear of Flags who dont want to stock warmahordes because of bad history with PP. Like card packs going away after it was released, command book becoming absolute after they was released, black anchor, mystery boxs and others.

Another big issue is that several Flags indeed had a big stock. But it didnt sell. The Flags sold it out on big sales and after being burned and lost money, refuse to restock.

   
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A lot of that comes down to online competition from what I saw. Getting people to buy local was an exercising in pulling teeth when product was regularly 65% or so online compared to what they get in stores after taxes. A lot of them said that stores just need to compete with online. A lot of stores decided they just didn't need to sell PP stuff. PP tried to put the genie back in the bottle, but timing that with the MK3 launch just gave a bunch of people all the more reason to resent MK3.

EDIT: On that note, one of their current problems is that the game experienced much of its explosive growth around the release of huge resin models whose real price was pretty heavily masked by online discounts. While they're not a problem competitively, PP pushed more of them into the game than the market would have beared normally. A lot of their current issues with kits not being competitively priced comes down to resin appearing practical when it was priced with massive discounts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/28 21:12:33


 
   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

For myself, WMH is just a little too gimmicky. I'm not a big fan of stacking buff upon buff upon buff upon buff upon debuff… just *knowing* all the interactions is taxing.

I enjoy the game, but in a casual way. While I have no problems getting games, I don't care if it's Steamroller or by the book or whatever, I know I don't put as much effort into it as the other folks at the FLGS do, so I tend to get sideswiped pretty easily.

I'm also not into playing with felt pads for forests, or a popsicle stick for a wall... that's a big turn-off for me. I don't mind if minis are partly assembled, or unpainted, or even if the terrain is poorly made and falling apart... but if I wanted to play a 2d game I'd play a video game. I want the 3d element and it is unpopular in my (limited) experience.

I've said it before, but the game could be a fair bit more welcoming to new players, by simplifying the rules into more of a battle game, then skirmish game, and reducing the number of special rules / stacks. One or two buffs at a time is not so bad... 5 or more becomes silly.

Also, get rid of 1/2" measurements. 1" increments are granular enough. Base contact, 1", 2" for melee. Less focus on units blocking their own LOS from each other. Again, more of a battle game than a skirmish.
   
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I havent played in years. Other games got my attention.

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Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

I'm actually aiming to finally paint a new army and play some MK3 this year, spurred in part by the PP art book KS and in part because I'm really burning out on GW stuff. Kill Team is barely supported, 40k is back to being a train wreck, AOS continues to be uninspiring in-game (despite both of my factions - ogres + tzeentch - receiving new books recently), and then GW deliberately kneecapping the successful launch of KOW 3E reminded me that NüDub is still the predator it's been since the early 2000s. You know, like when WM was released and PP was a breath of fresh air.

Anyway, couple responses:

1) I loved the theme lists from MK2. Being rewarded in interesting ways for taking weird stuff was a good feel that fed into how I make armies anyway. MK3 themes bear almost no resemblance, it's just extra rules for a few units and more stuff you'd be a fool (and down 3-18ish points) if you didn't take advantage of.
2) I appreciate that PP has moved beyond books for their rules content. It's pretty asinine that GW makes players buy book after book after book (and track down FAQ after FAQ) to stay current. That said, PP's books are also some of the only outdated game books I'm happy to keep around, as I dig the art + fluff.
 Gabbi wrote:
(Dark Age, for example. One of the best systems I ever played, thanks CMoN for the umpteenth Zombicide KS nobody (should) care about)
3) I'm still really hoping somebody competent buys all of those beautiful new Dark Age sculpts and fresh rules content and puts the game back out. I'm shocked at how much awesome work went into that game for it to be dumped so quickly.
4) Full disclosure: I think I'm going to finally paint up a version of that Cryx force I started amassing at the end of MK2. Partially because Cryx seem rather mediocre now, or at least the way I'm going to play them should be

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 greatbigtree wrote:


I'm also not into playing with felt pads for forests, or a popsicle stick for a wall... that's a big turn-off for me. I don't mind if minis are partly assembled, or unpainted, or even if the terrain is poorly made and falling apart... but if I wanted to play a 2d game I'd play a video game. I want the 3d element and it is unpopular in my (limited) experience.


This is a side effect of the game being a very tightly written competitively balanced (which isn't the same as general balance) ruleset. Even fractional differences in measured distances and model placement can completely change the outcome of the game, so precision measurements are a must. The community by and large has decided that 3D terrain is totally incompatible with that approach, and so they don't use it in order to preserve the "purity" of gameplay. The problem could be addressed fairly easily by establishing terrain design standards, updating the terrain rules a bit to remove some of the issues that players have with 3D terrain, and releasing a line of officially supported 3D terrain designed with gameplay considerations in mind - but that might be more than what PP is capable of for the time being.

2) I appreciate that PP has moved beyond books for their rules content. It's pretty asinine that GW makes players buy book after book after book (and track down FAQ after FAQ) to stay current.


Flip side is that by doing this PP killed a big revenue generator, caused the games fluff development to stagnate and created somewhat of an access barrier to the fluff (the absence of books with fluff in them means most players are entirely clueless about the fluff and the lore and makes them less likely to buy the novels that PP has published in their place), and indirectly contributed to the decline of the WMHDs casual community by killing much of the interest in the lore and eliminating a lot of the narrative/casual level content from the game. GWs release model has a *ton* of problems and plenty of room from improvement, but PP is a case study in why GW shouldn't follow their lead and instead try to find a different approach.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/29 14:41:19


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Yeah a lot of established gamers who have one army (or several) that they've collected for years tend to forget that the lore in the codex/battletome is often a big part of what helps keep people sticking around GW products and games. Whilst we might argue about the price and the time they fall out of date etc...; there's no denying that the physical book product helps sell stuff.

Plus its something affordable you can put in the hands of most people wanting to start and send them away and its FAR more interesting than a free leaflet at engaging them. I bet there's many a person who went into a GW store (or 3rd party) and left with just a battletome/codex and returned later for models. If you take that out then you lose a marketing tool and theo nly thing to inspire them with is a box of models that need building and painting before they look good (and that's assuming the person has skill/resources to achieve that).


Also GW's FAQs aren't that hard to find - its basically one or two clicks on their website and you've got them. Plus by and large they aren't re-writing the whole book; many are small adjustments and addendums. some of the changes are even just fine-tuning the language to avoid abuses or confusion on interpreting what was written.



I just don't think that the fast paced rules and balance changes that computer games have; easily translates to tabletop. Because in a computer game all those changes are handled by the computer on its own. In reality the person has to remember them; remember that they've changed, reference them etc....

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