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Hey folks!

Been thinking a lot recently of how to fix Marines. I love powerful Marines, because they ARE cool, and there ARE a lot of ways to build them because they're potent. However, when even the most optimistic person I know in this game started calling the new meta Marines a "cancer" on the game, I had to put my head to it. Here's my first idea at a fix. I think Marines need more than this (Master Artisans/Master Craftsmen should be a "you only get this trait" bonus, not "this plus something else" bonus), but this is a good start for helping to balance things out.

Doctrine Inflexibility:
At the start of the game you begin with the Devastator Doctrine active. At the start of each successive Battle Round, you must change your Doctrine, if able.


Basically, this would force you out of Devastator Doctrine turn 2, and force you out of Tactical Doctrine turn 3. This would also make the Ultramarine stratagem "Cycle of War" actually matter, as they would be the only Chapter capable of leaving the Assault Doctrine. The Super-Doctrine bonuses are therefore far more mitigated. You can build you list for that devastating turn 1, as so many do, and that's fine - but you'll suffer far more turns 2-6 than they currently do. To me, this makes sense, and would be fun.

 Yarium wrote:

(Master Artisans/Master Craftsmen should be a "you only get this trait" bonus, not "this plus something else" bonus)

Eh. I mean, Salamanders get Master Artisans+, and they're not dominating the meta at the moment.

Doctrine Inflexibility:
At the start of the game you begin with the Devastator Doctrine active. At the start of each successive Battle Round, you must change your Doctrine, if able.

Basically, this would force you out of Devastator Doctrine turn 2, and force you out of Tactical Doctrine turn 3. This would also make the Ultramarine stratagem "Cycle of War" actually matter, as they would be the only Chapter capable of leaving the Assault Doctrine. The Super-Doctrine bonuses are therefore far more mitigated. You can build you list for that devastating turn 1, as so many do, and that's fine - but you'll suffer far more turns 2-6 than they currently do. To me, this makes sense, and would be fun.

Interesting idea. My main concern would be that it might punish some of the "super doctrines" that are less powerful on the surface. Sure, Iron Hands and Imperial fists wouldn't be able to sit in devastator doctrine all game (without spending 1CP a turn to jump back to it), but Raven Guard would have to do all their best sniping on turn 2 or not at all. And custom non-successor chapters would be forced to lose devastator doctrines turn 2 even if they're not all that powerful in the first place.

Basically, I worry that it's punishing all marines for the sins of the IH and the IF.

I

Doctrines should be a once per battle ability per doctrine.
Reroll everything chapter master aura should be a once per battle startegem.

Hopefully this means the doctrine is not the be all and end all of the army build. Once you use your doctrine /re-roll that's it. You then have to rely on other elements of your army. (you still have your traits and other strategems that mgith actualy get used...).

So hopefuly people would take more varied options rather than just spam whatever their super doctrine tells them to spam.

But to be honest I don't know man. There's too many interactions, I wouldn't have the foggiest where to start. Perhaps keep SM 2.0 without supplements and then make the doctrines work a bit like tides and have to roll for it.

So there are a couple options to fix doctrines

1) When switching doctrines at the beginning of the round and you have access to a super doctrine you must choose between the super doctrine or the AP increase.

- A lot of weapons being used are high RoF with low AP, going from 0-1 and 1-2 AP is a massive change for those style weapons

2) OPs suggestion. You have one round of each doctrine.

-Meaning that if your trying to maximize effectiveness on a doctrine, you have a spectrum of Positioning VS Alpha-strike with Doctrine leaning that hardest on alpha, where Assault leaning hardest on positioning.

3) 1Dev/2Tac/3Assault

So 1 round of Dev, followed by 2 of assault, followed by 3 of Assault. If your doing this, toss in a strategem to move the ticker one turn forward (so Assault can still be in play by T3)

Just. Remove. Super. Doctrines. They. Should. Not. Exist.

Add a draw back on using doctrines.

Like if you are in devastator, if you want to shoot heavy weapons and gain benefit, you cant move and are easier to charge or something.

 Argive wrote:
Add a draw back on using doctrines.

Like if you are in devastator, if you want to shoot heavy weapons and gain benefit, you cant move and are easier to charge or something.

No overwatch for devastator perhaps? In assault you must attempt to charge if within charge range?

 Yarium wrote:
Hey folks!

Been thinking a lot recently of how to fix Marines. I love powerful Marines, because they ARE cool, and there ARE a lot of ways to build them because they're potent. However, when even the most optimistic person I know in this game started calling the new meta Marines a "cancer" on the game, I had to put my head to it. Here's my first idea at a fix. I think Marines need more than this (Master Artisans/Master Craftsmen should be a "you only get this trait" bonus, not "this plus something else" bonus), but this is a good start for helping to balance things out.

Doctrine Inflexibility:
At the start of the game you begin with the Devastator Doctrine active. At the start of each successive Battle Round, you must change your Doctrine, if able.


Basically, this would force you out of Devastator Doctrine turn 2, and force you out of Tactical Doctrine turn 3. This would also make the Ultramarine stratagem "Cycle of War" actually matter, as they would be the only Chapter capable of leaving the Assault Doctrine. The Super-Doctrine bonuses are therefore far more mitigated. You can build you list for that devastating turn 1, as so many do, and that's fine - but you'll suffer far more turns 2-6 than they currently do. To me, this makes sense, and would be fun.

I don't think Marines are too powerful, Sallies probably need to get back Stratagem buffs or something to bring them back in power actually. I have said that I think the above rule should be put in place, but mostly for gameplay reasons, not balance. Outside ITC Marines Iron Warriors are tier 1 rather than tier 0, so if you nerf them as part of a faction-wide nerfs they probably cannot handle another couple of nerfs to their powerful options without also needing to nerf other tier 1 armies (Orks, Craftworlds, Chaos soup).

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

(Master Artisans/Master Craftsmen should be a "you only get this trait" bonus, not "this plus something else" bonus)

Eh. I mean, Salamanders get Master Artisans+, and they're not dominating the meta at the moment.

Is that not because the buffs Salamanders give to flamers and meltas aren't enough to bring them up to par with the best units in the codex? Their super doc is basically irrelevant, Master Artisans Stealthy successors are extremely good. Master Artisans needs a nerf, IMO GW should remove the hit part of the equation, just give a single wound re-roll per phase. Rather than buffing Salamanders I think flamers, heavy flamers, melta guns and multi-meltas need buffs.

 Yarium wrote:

Doctrine Inflexibility:
At the start of the game you begin with the Devastator Doctrine active. At the start of each successive Battle Round, you must change your Doctrine, if able.

Basically, this would force you out of Devastator Doctrine turn 2, and force you out of Tactical Doctrine turn 3. This would also make the Ultramarine stratagem "Cycle of War" actually matter, as they would be the only Chapter capable of leaving the Assault Doctrine. The Super-Doctrine bonuses are therefore far more mitigated. You can build you list for that devastating turn 1, as so many do, and that's fine - but you'll suffer far more turns 2-6 than they currently do. To me, this makes sense, and would be fun.

Interesting idea. My main concern would be that it might punish some of the "super doctrines" that are less powerful on the surface. Sure, Iron Hands and Imperial fists wouldn't be able to sit in devastator doctrine all game (without spending 1CP a turn to jump back to it), but Raven Guard would have to do all their best sniping on turn 2 or not at all. And custom non-successor chapters would be forced to lose devastator doctrines turn 2 even if they're not all that powerful in the first place.

Basically, I worry that it's punishing all marines for the sins of the IH and the IF.

I

Wyldhunt wrote:
Interesting idea. My main concern would be that it might punish some of the "super doctrines" that are less powerful on the surface. Sure, Iron Hands and Imperial fists wouldn't be able to sit in devastator doctrine all game (without spending 1CP a turn to jump back to it), but Raven Guard would have to do all their best sniping on turn 2 or not at all. And custom non-successor chapters would be forced to lose devastator doctrines turn 2 even if they're not all that powerful in the first place.

Basically, I worry that it's punishing all marines for the sins of the IH and the IF.

I think that's not a real worry simply because there's a stratagem that lets you get an extra use of a Doctrine: Adaptive Strategy (lets you, once per game, move the Doctrine back). So every single Space Marine player can actually get 2 turns of a Doctrine at the cost of a command point. It seems to suggest that GW was already thinking of making Doctrines work this way anyways.


As to everyone else, I don't think deep cuts are needed, because I like Marines being powerful. Super Doctrines existing is pretty awesome, because it helps keep Space Marines as mono-Marines. Seeing an Ultramarine player being rewarded for fielding all Ultramarines is really cool. If I were to make other changes, I'd likely remove the ability for Space Marine Successors to have access to their parent's Super Doctrine, and to cause their parent chapter to lose the Super Doctrine if souped up.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Add a draw back on using doctrines.

Like if you are in devastator, if you want to shoot heavy weapons and gain benefit, you cant move and are easier to charge or something.

No overwatch for devastator perhaps? In assault you must attempt to charge if within charge range?

Its a start.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Just. Remove. Super. Doctrines. They. Should. Not. Exist.

Have a bloody exalt my good man.

I am the best.

Called it yarium.

are you a Tzeentchian?

I just know how GW thinks. Most of the time it's something along the lines of "Share And Enjoy"

(10 internet points if you get the reference)

the answer is 42.


i guess. Still, i find the adaptive strategy deletion a bit wonky in a way.

Adaptive strategy should become beginning of movement, target unit, choose any doctrine for the turn stratagem.

 skchsan wrote:
Adaptive strategy should become beginning of movement, target unit, choose any doctrine for the turn stratagem.

I'd probably be okay with that. The strongest applications would probably be giving some IH unit their shooting buffs (not too bad on a single unit) and turn 1 and 2 WS and BS melee buffs. And overbuffing melee units is a risk I'd be willing to playtest against.

With the advent of Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good, all of the Space Marine doctrines seem rather underpowered - at least compared to the Lite Space Marines that the Guard can field (Tempestus Scion Detachments).

+1AP to all weapons, when combined with an already crazy strong -2AP basic weapon?
Bonus shots on 6's? Combined with orders, with Space Marine accuracy?
Redeployments?
Super Deep Strikes?

I don't have any Marines, but they sure are easy to play against, now...

Slayer6 wrote:
With the advent of Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good, all of the Space Marine doctrines seem rather underpowered - at least compared to the Lite Space Marines that the Guard can field (Tempestus Scion Detachments).

+1AP to all weapons, when combined with an already crazy strong -2AP basic weapon?
Bonus shots on 6's? Combined with orders, with Space Marine accuracy?
Redeployments?
Super Deep Strikes?

All limited to a single T3 HQ choice(Tempestor Prime) to issue them Orders, a single Elite choice(Scion Command Squad), and a single Troops choice(Scions)--and I guess the Taurox Prime too?

I don't have any Marines, but they sure are easy to play against, now...

So are Scions, if you know they're coming.

Also, it's +1 AP or bonus shots on a nat 6 or super deep strike. Not all at once.

Plus, it's shackled to their basic unit having a S3 18" gun.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it's +1 AP or bonus shots on a nat 6 or super deep strike. Not all at once.

Plus, it's shackled to their basic unit having a S3 18" gun.

That 18" bit being very important given that you're probably deepstriking them. No rapid fire on that strength 3 gun. Scions are good, but they're not so good that marines need to be jealous of them.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, it's +1 AP or bonus shots on a nat 6 or super deep strike. Not all at once.

Plus, it's shackled to their basic unit having a S3 18" gun.

That 18" bit being very important given that you're probably deepstriking them. No rapid fire on that strength 3 gun. Scions are good, but they're not so good that marines need to be jealous of them.

Iotan Dragons Doctrine turns that 18" into 24"...

Yes I have dropped 5 full squads with a single Prime who has a Rod, Tactical Auto-reliquary, Master of Command (Progeny of Conflict), and Inspired Tactics, and gone FRFSRF straight off the bat to eliminate far more expensive units by sheer weight of high AP dice...

Kanwulen wrote:All limited to a single T3 HQ choice(Tempestor Prime) to issue them Orders, a single Elite choice(Scion Command Squad), and a single Troops choice(Scions)--and I guess the Taurox Prime too?

You can technically field as many Scion squads as you like - as long as you have Regimental Advisors to spare and still benefit from the various doctrines...
So that frees up:
Lord Commissars x 3
Primaris Psykers x 3
Aradia Madellan
Commissar Yarrick
A total of 5 Battalions of Tempestus - the Command Squads are really only used if I want to run a Valkyrie and do some Precision Drops, and even there I will use a Command Squad and 8 man Scion Squad (or 7, if I include a Prime inside).