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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Under suggestion from people on this site, I found a good deal on the Shadowspear set and picked it up. The addition of the Captain and Librarian alone made up half the cost of the box, so I have no issues there.

I also really like the Suppressors, at least for the guns they carry, they can drop in from a safe vantage and lay some weight down on something big. However, I'm kind of at a loss as to how to use the rest of the models efficiently.

I'm not super familiar with Screening. Are there any tips or strategies I could utilize to keep my units safe? I feel there will always be somewhere Orks can teleport in where I can't defend. Also, I have not been able to keep troops alive long enough to actually keep my area safe. Infiltrators are generally pretty good at anti-DS and I happen to play against Orks and Necrons a fair amount. But for 22 points a model I feel like just Proxying them as Intercessors and free up some points for other models (we play friendly only games). I'm a pretty confused individual, as almost every list I see just spams Intercessors for troops and calls it a day, so I'm wondering if I made a mistake in picking up this set. If they aren't deep striking, they are picking me off from across the table, and what I own is limited so I can't just change it up based on what my opponent is taking.

The Eliminators I am also not super sure how to utilize them to make back their point cost.

I play Salamanders, and as it stands, my list consists of solely Tactical Marines for troops, Lascannon and Heavy Bolter Razorbacks, Flame Aggressors, a whirlwind, and a 3-man Inceptor squad. It's not the worst, but it leaves much to be desired. I don't necessarily want to dominate, but I definitely lose far more than I win.

I think this came off as mostly a ramble, but for those of you able to grasp what I'm trying to say, please I'll take what advice I can get. And thank you.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Eliminators are amazing snipers, their mere presence tends to make opposing players panic.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

A lot of armies rely on buff characters to act as force multipliers. Snipers help take them out. You don’t necisarily want to go for the “hard” target, like the buff guy with the invuln save. It can take too long to chew through those wounds. But guys like Lieutenants, Anchients, Apothethecaries, Librarians, etc. And their equivalents in other armies. And there are also targets of opportunities. Sometimes you just need one more wound to kill something, or knock a tank down a bracket. Worth a shot.

Screening is very critical vs. some armies, and unnecessary versus others. The infiltrators pay a premium price to be very good at this, an a hard counter to a number of strategies. When you don’t need their abilities, they are overpriced. When you do, they are priceless.

Screening is very opponent dependent. Depending what they bring and what you need to screen and screen against. Generally you want to cover as much ground as you can to deny space for deep strikers. Think of the 9” or 12” bubble surrounding the unit. Use as much as you can. Keep things at arm’s length.

Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 13K+ Slowly growing 3Kish
Nevelon's Workbench: Ultramarines, Saim-Hann and other assorted oddities
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Nevelon wrote:
A lot of armies rely on buff characters to act as force multipliers. Snipers help take them out. You don’t necisarily want to go for the “hard” target, like the buff guy with the invuln save. It can take too long to chew through those wounds. But guys like Lieutenants, Anchients, Apothethecaries, Librarians, etc. And their equivalents in other armies. And there are also targets of opportunities. Sometimes you just need one more wound to kill something, or knock a tank down a bracket. Worth a shot.

Screening is very critical vs. some armies, and unnecessary versus others. The infiltrators pay a premium price to be very good at this, an a hard counter to a number of strategies. When you don’t need their abilities, they are overpriced. When you do, they are priceless.

Screening is very opponent dependent. Depending what they bring and what you need to screen and screen against. Generally you want to cover as much ground as you can to deny space for deep strikers. Think of the 9” or 12” bubble surrounding the unit. Use as much as you can. Keep things at arm’s length.


Off topic slightly...but in games of Craftworl vs AM...what are the screening things to be considered for both sides? Guessing not needed much vs the AM(unless lots of scions coming) but the AM themselves vs the Eldar?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

VAYASEN wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
A lot of armies rely on buff characters to act as force multipliers. Snipers help take them out. You don’t necisarily want to go for the “hard” target, like the buff guy with the invuln save. It can take too long to chew through those wounds. But guys like Lieutenants, Anchients, Apothethecaries, Librarians, etc. And their equivalents in other armies. And there are also targets of opportunities. Sometimes you just need one more wound to kill something, or knock a tank down a bracket. Worth a shot.

Screening is very critical vs. some armies, and unnecessary versus others. The infiltrators pay a premium price to be very good at this, an a hard counter to a number of strategies. When you don’t need their abilities, they are overpriced. When you do, they are priceless.

Screening is very opponent dependent. Depending what they bring and what you need to screen and screen against. Generally you want to cover as much ground as you can to deny space for deep strikers. Think of the 9” or 12” bubble surrounding the unit. Use as much as you can. Keep things at arm’s length.


Off topic slightly...but in games of Craftworl vs AM...what are the screening things to be considered for both sides? Guessing not needed much vs the AM(unless lots of scions coming) but the AM themselves vs the Eldar?


Quick answer on break. Eldar can DS from the webway a lot of nasty stuff with short range guns. Guardian bombs, wraithguard. Also possible melee units.

Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 13K+ Slowly growing 3Kish
Nevelon's Workbench: Ultramarines, Saim-Hann and other assorted oddities
 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





I really like Infiltrators. The value of mid-board objective capturing presence turn 1 cannot be understated. Setting them up ahead of your lines early, to maximize your 12" bubbles and capture mid-field objectives on first turn, can be worth like 3 victory points [or even more sometimes] as well as keeping enemy deep strikers out and away from your main line. I have mine in 2 squads of 5 [converted the apothecary to a second sergeant], and deploy them in mid-field cover which makes them impressively difficult to remove.
You can also make some T1 charges with them to tie up key enemy units on the first turn.

I'm not a huge fan of suppressors, and while eliminators are good on paper, mine never seem to do anything. Suppressors are a weird unit, with long-range guns & deep strike, heavy weapons & high movement & no natural moving & shooting, etc. Also, almost all the things that I want to suppress with the suppressors can't be hit by their special ability or they can't kill effectively. And thunderfire cannons don't need to kill models to lock out the overwatch and slow down the charges.

My Eliminators basically just don't succeed. Other people's succeed against me, so they can be good, but mine just don't. I think it's also best to have multiple eliminator squads too, because you want to be able to knock down the character in question in a round more than just sticking damage on it.

VAYASEN wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
A lot of armies rely on buff characters to act as force multipliers. Snipers help take them out. You don’t necisarily want to go for the “hard” target, like the buff guy with the invuln save. It can take too long to chew through those wounds. But guys like Lieutenants, Anchients, Apothethecaries, Librarians, etc. And their equivalents in other armies. And there are also targets of opportunities. Sometimes you just need one more wound to kill something, or knock a tank down a bracket. Worth a shot.

Screening is very critical vs. some armies, and unnecessary versus others. The infiltrators pay a premium price to be very good at this, an a hard counter to a number of strategies. When you don’t need their abilities, they are overpriced. When you do, they are priceless.

Screening is very opponent dependent. Depending what they bring and what you need to screen and screen against. Generally you want to cover as much ground as you can to deny space for deep strikers. Think of the 9” or 12” bubble surrounding the unit. Use as much as you can. Keep things at arm’s length.


Off topic slightly...but in games of Craftworl vs AM...what are the screening things to be considered for both sides? Guessing not needed much vs the AM(unless lots of scions coming) but the AM themselves vs the Eldar?


Imperial infantrymen, sentinels, and aggression. If your infantry is moving forward, they basically can't arrive from deep strike on your side of the board and won't be anywhere near the tanks on the drop. most regular units will also have to fight through the guardsmen to get to your firepower.

Against the flyers, you can try to zone them off the board, but like the best thing you can do is try to blow them up. It's a tough matchup IG vs. Eldar because you can't hit s***.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Since no one else seems to have pointed it out yet, I feel obliged to direct the OPs attention to the Salamander's Relic Ammo.

What it does is reduce a bolt gun to a single shot, but if that shot hits you roll d6 separate to-wound rolls with the gun's normal AP and D replaced with AP 1 and D1. The Phobos Captain and the Eliminator Sergeant are easily the best two places to put that ammo.

On the Phobos Captain it can combo with the Marksman's Honors warlord trait so each of those to-wound rolls is now a D2, which can out-damage the base gun profile by a lot.

On the Eliminator Sergeant it's a huge increase to the potential damage of the Indirect Fire round. That's already an Ap1 D1, so every to-hit after the first is a bonus. That can almost triple the effectiveness of that squad against anything that is properly hidden.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 16:14:29


   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I'll have to look closer at the Dragonrage Bolts. I haven't had much luck with them, but maybe on the Elminator you have a point, again I'll have to do some testing of my own.

With vanguard deployment, how do you circumvent deploying first? If I can't see my enemies since they have not deployed yet, how can I deploy in a way that is beneficial to me? I would need to be covered on all possible sides to ensure I get proper cover saves. Unless I didn't read the rules correctly on Vanguard units, but I assume they deploy at the same time as your own troops, just you can deploy them anywhere. Do you wait until all units are on the table before setting them up?

If that last point is the case then absolutely taking an objective, paired with the Phobos Librarian sounds pretty amazing, especially with Salamander specific "Fire Shield".

Either way, I guess I just need more table time. Screening is definitely my biggest weakness, as even against Orks, I have been absolutely destroyed from across the field, and then they teleport behind me in a pocket they created. Maybe Eliminators will be my cure for instances such as that, since its usually the characters with crazy randomized weaponry that blow me to smitherines.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





On Vanguard deployment; the units with Advanced Deploy are set up as normal, outside of getting to ignore the normal deployment zones. Personally I tend to declare Deep Strike units first, and then the Vanguard and other troop units, and finally stuff like the Eliminators that I want camping cover as much as possible. Infiltrators aren't so good that I'm going to regret not getting an ideal deployment on them.

If you're willing to pay the CP (and also the point premium...) you can also give a warlord trait to a model that isn't actually your warlord. Master of Deceit lets you pick up three Phobos units and redeploy them before the game starts. If you're going first you get to line them up on ideal targets and if you're going second you can pull them back out of harm's way.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Since I picked up this set I was looking at the Chaos Marines and not sure what to do with them. I play Chaos Daemons but that's not really the same, though I suppose I could use them together and not be terribly out of place. Question regarding them though, what would be a great Legion to make them? Right now my top choices are Alpha Legion, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons, but a friend of mine already has T-sons so I don't really want to copy him. World Eaters would be fun to paint, but I only hear how they get obliterated before they can do anything.



To The Newman: Master of Deceit sounds sneaky as hell, but again I have little to go off for how to fit it into my list. But all options are on the table at this point. Not being able to deploy strategically just because I set up first kinda sucks, I always felt the point of "stealth" units was that they could take advantage of the playing field. But I'll still do my best to utilize them to their fullest should I choose to play them.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Anvilrage wrote:
Since I picked up this set I was looking at the Chaos Marines and not sure what to do with them. I play Chaos Daemons but that's not really the same, though I suppose I could use them together and not be terribly out of place. Question regarding them though, what would be a great Legion to make them? Right now my top choices are Alpha Legion, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons, but a friend of mine already has T-sons so I don't really want to copy him. World Eaters would be fun to paint, but I only hear how they get obliterated before they can do anything.



To The Newman: Master of Deceit sounds sneaky as hell, but again I have little to go off for how to fit it into my list. But all options are on the table at this point. Not being able to deploy strategically just because I set up first kinda sucks, I always felt the point of "stealth" units was that they could take advantage of the playing field. But I'll still do my best to utilize them to their fullest should I choose to play them.


1k sons have their own codex so you'd not be able to use the chaos stuff as 1k sons anyway. between alpha legion and emperor's children...... what's more fun to paint? go with that (for what it's worth I think Alpha legion would be really easy to do well with contrast paint over metalics)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/12 10:08:36


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




BrianDavion wrote:


1k sons have their own codex so you'd not be able to use the chaos stuff as 1k sons anyway. between alpha legion and emperor's children...... what's more fun to paint? go with that (for what it's worth I think Alpha legion would be really easy to do well with contrast paint over metalics)


This is why I come here! Thanks, I had no idea 1k sons had their own dex. That makes it a much easier decision, and the idea of ease of painting with a stellar finish kinda tips the scales.

Thanks again.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Anvilrage wrote:
To The Newman: Master of Deceit sounds sneaky as hell, but again I have little to go off for how to fit it into my list. But all options are on the table at this point. Not being able to deploy strategically just because I set up first kinda sucks, I always felt the point of "stealth" units was that they could take advantage of the playing field. But I'll still do my best to utilize them to their fullest should I choose to play them.


Master of Deceit is a Phobos-only Warlord trait, you could just select it as normal. There is also a strat in the main Marine codex to add a warlord trait to a model that isn't your warlord and another in the Salamanders book to give your Warlord a second Warlord Trait.

   
 
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