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Made in us
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So, a lot of 40k events have used the Best Coast Pairings app. However, in general I think this app does a fairly poor job. Perhaps the most prominent example was at LVO 2019 (EDIT: 2020, actually, my mistake), where I'm told that the app crashed and forced manual pairings, which delayed round time for one of the rounds by something like two hours. (I was playing Star Wars: Legion, which used tabletop.to and had no problems, but to be fair it had fewer players as well.)

While I haven't personally experienced anything as dramatic as the LVO incident myself, in general I haven't found Best Coast Pairings to be very effective. Instead I prefer tabletop.to, which is very easy to use, doesn't require installing an app, and has yet to had any dramatic failures that I'm aware of. I'm not affiliated with either Best Coast Pairings or Tabletop.TO and I don't really know who all is involved with either -- but what I do know is that when an event announces that it's using Best Coast Pairings, I think to myself "uh-oh".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/16 11:37:19


 
   
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It certainly had an impact on LVO this year (not sure if that is the incident you're referring to) - crashed after round 1, and took up to three hours to sort out what was going on.

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'Jack Scrapper




Austria

it was many years ago that I had to use such a program, but the main point back than always was how easy it was to import player data from the registration side

I don't know that specific program/app, but if any other program makes it harder to import players, and non is going to type in anything beyond 20 on his own, it is not a real alternative

for example most tournaments in Central Europe use the T3 website (https://www.tabletoptournaments.net/) for registration, which offers its own offline program for easy import/export and all kind of pairing options, while there are alternatives for specific games and the software itself have not seen an update for years, it is still used

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/15 19:42:20


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

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It does seem to have had problems at pretty much every large tournament I've heard of it being used at. There are other options out there that I think would be preferable. Unfortunately I think BCP have had, and missed, their opportunity to show they're capable of handling a large tournament smoothly.
   
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San Diego, CA

Best Coast pairings has some U/I issues, but overall the concept is awesome and with ITC Battles App integration it’s a really great tool.
The issue seems to be every year at the LVO (its biggest event) it crashes due to technical issues and there has never been a backup plan. I don’t want to insult the devs, they seem like nice guys from what I’ve heard, but I think they could do a better job of anticipating issues and they need to start taking some technical criticism onboard.

1. Your server load isn’t just from the event, it’s becoming global which means that you have potentially thousands of other queries happening in addition to what is going on in Vegas. I don’t know how their traffic is routed, but app-side it doesn’t look like there’s any difference which if correct means that you’re not just servicing a 1000 person event, you’re dealing with 10 times that and with streaming and overall popularity growth the observer number will only grow.
2. Converting text to images...are you high? That is an exponential data growth and no one thinking through basic file size 101 is embarrassing.
3. Not having a backup plan built into the TO app is the pinnacle of arrogance. This app has crashed before and you didn’t anticipate it the previous times, so saying “it won’t fail this time though!” is kinda dumb. Having a way to pull the event offline into a local, on-site server would be best, but at least having some sort of spreadsheet raw data output would be better than having absolutely nothing.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
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Los Angeles

For those chiming in on 'not being involved' or not attending those events, maybe not post at all? Yer slinging poo that you don't really know much about.

I have attended the last 8 BAOs, all SoCals, and 8 of the LVOs. Yeah, round 1, occasionally crashes, and this last LVO there were a 3-4 hours delay, not their best moment.

BCP is still a great source for players. I can look up who defeated who, look at lists, for *any* event, because I subscribe, even if I didn't attend.

This is a bad thread. Capitalism's Mother Nature will out, that is, if BCP doesn't meet the needs, then it will fail.

It certainly doesn't need a thread with non-participatory dakkaites posting negatively, not knowing squat. That's simply wrong.



I *do* know Casey D, Paul K, and Garret M, enough to where they know me by name.

@Kingsley
If you don't like the app, stop paying for it. And know that 2019 was not the worst; it was this *last* LVO. Post accurately, with the facts, maybe? And great, you're playing something that isn't 40k, so why're you flinging poo that you're not involved in?

Are you really the guy playing soccer and telling everyone else that maybe basketball/baseball/lacross/volleyball isn't that good?

MODs ought to close this.

"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

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Longtime Dakkanaut







 greyknight12 wrote:
Best Coast pairings has some U/I issues, but overall the concept is awesome and with ITC Battles App integration it’s a really great tool.
The issue seems to be every year at the LVO (its biggest event) it crashes due to technical issues and there has never been a backup plan. I don’t want to insult the devs, they seem like nice guys from what I’ve heard, but I think they could do a better job of anticipating issues and they need to start taking some technical criticism onboard.

1. Your server load isn’t just from the event, it’s becoming global which means that you have potentially thousands of other queries happening in addition to what is going on in Vegas. I don’t know how their traffic is routed, but app-side it doesn’t look like there’s any difference which if correct means that you’re not just servicing a 1000 person event, you’re dealing with 10 times that and with streaming and overall popularity growth the observer number will only grow.
2. Converting text to images...are you high? That is an exponential data growth and no one thinking through basic file size 101 is embarrassing.
3. Not having a backup plan built into the TO app is the pinnacle of arrogance. This app has crashed before and you didn’t anticipate it the previous times, so saying “it won’t fail this time though!” is kinda dumb. Having a way to pull the event offline into a local, on-site server would be best, but at least having some sort of spreadsheet raw data output would be better than having absolutely nothing.

Frankly, the TO side shouldn't be running server-side, but locally, probably with an upload to the server once all the results are in, and possibly once the pairings are made.

Having some form of export as a back-up before these points, which can be imported to restore an event in the case of a crash, would also make sense.

Having done results entry for multiple large events in the past, I'd also advocate for some form of paper results slip as a back-up to submitting results electronically, but that's just me thinking about worst-case scenarios for the software. Even if everything electronic gets corrupted due to a software crash, you can rebuild the event from the paper copies

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 Brothererekose wrote:
For those chiming in on 'not being involved' or not attending those events, maybe not post at all? Yer slinging poo that you don't really know much about.

I have attended the last 8 BAOs, all SoCals, and 8 of the LVOs. Yeah, round 1, occasionally crashes, and this last LVO there were a 3-4 hours delay, not their best moment.

BCP is still a great source for players. I can look up who defeated who, look at lists, for *any* event, because I subscribe, even if I didn't attend.

This is a bad thread. Capitalism's Mother Nature will out, that is, if BCP doesn't meet the needs, then it will fail.

It certainly doesn't need a thread with non-participatory dakkaites posting negatively, not knowing squat. That's simply wrong.



I *do* know Casey D, Paul K, and Garret M, enough to where they know me by name.

@Kingsley
If you don't like the app, stop paying for it. And know that 2019 was not the worst; it was this *last* LVO. Post accurately, with the facts, maybe? And great, you're playing something that isn't 40k, so why're you flinging poo that you're not involved in?

Are you really the guy playing soccer and telling everyone else that maybe basketball/baseball/lacross/volleyball isn't that good?

MODs ought to close this.


Ah yes right traditional white knight. Nothing dev's do can POSSIBLY be bad. It's perfect. Never mind numerous(no the LVO wasn' only time it has happned) crashes and delays caused by BCP there's NO WAY WHATSOEVER it could be improved.It's absolutely perfect and crashesh and delays in tournaments is just good feature!

Lol at white knights.

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Ah yes, my mistake -- LVO 2020, not 2019. Forgot the year had turned around already, I was at LVO both times.

I don't pay for BCP and I think it's a bit of a ripoff quite frankly, as you're paying for things that others give you for free. Tabletop.to can show me lists and matchups from previous events without charging me money for it. If you want to check out the lists from the Legion event for instance, here they are, no subscription required:

https://tabletop.to/lvo-2020-star-wars-legion-friday-heat/lists

In any case, Dakka isn't a 40k-only forum, and the Tournament Discussions forum is specifically for many different games. The fact that I play Legion instead of 40k these days doesn't mean that my opinion on pairing apps isn't valid, though -- both BCP and Tabletop.to are used for many things other than just 40k, and my experience has been that BCP is strongly the weaker of the two.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/16 11:36:57


 
   
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Los Angeles


tneva82 wrote:
Ah yes right traditional white knight. Nothing dev's do can POSSIBLY be bad. It's perfect. Never mind numerous(no the LVO wasn' only time it has happned) crashes and delays caused by BCP there's NO WAY WHATSOEVER it could be improved.It's absolutely perfect and crashesh and delays in tournaments is just good feature!

Lol at white knights.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Now Kingsley expressing his opinion isn't evil, but the way he has done is poorly exectued. If he likes 'tabletop.to', then great. But he ought to be more responsible. The post following yours, from him, is much better, but still, my point stands:

If 'tabletop.to' or other apps serve the community better, players will use them. Capitalism (gettin' philosophical here) works on the system that mother nature worked out: Survival of the most adaptive.

I will be someone's White Knight any day, 24/7, everyday of the year, rather than let go an unwarranted attack.

Here's a fallacy, but man, it works: "tneva82, do you stand by while someone is down and they're getting kicked?"

Perhaps a bit of hyperbole here, but should FRD have skipped out on the USA's role as White Knight in the 1940s? Left the UK and USSR to fight Germany on their own?

- - - - - - - -
Yeah, BCP had their worst screw up that I know of last month, and they'd better get their act together. Not serving 40k's biggest event to satisfaction is likely going to be the company's biggest challenge to sink or swim.

But jump on a guy when he's down?
Again:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kingsley wrote:
... as you're paying for things that others give you for free. Tabletop.to can show me lists and matchups from previous events without charging me money for it. If you want to check out the lists from the Legion event for instance, here they are, no subscription required:

https://tabletop.to/lvo-2020-star-wars-legion-friday-heat/lists

I will check it out. And if it does pretty much the same thing, then, thank you, I'll be saving a few bucks a month. srsly, Thanks.

 Kingsley wrote:
In any case, Dakka isn't a 40k-only forum, and the Tournament Discussions forum is specifically for many different games. The fact that I play Legion instead of 40k these days doesn't mean that my opinion on pairing apps isn't valid, though -- both BCP and Tabletop.to are used for many things other than just 40k, and my experience has been that BCP is strongly the weaker of the two.

So, at non-40k events, BCP has let you down? Okay. That's acceptable.

Still, I think the market's demands will solve the issue, rather than, negative feedback in a place where there's unlikely to be any positive reflection, input or anything to actually *help* the situation.

Maybe:

"Hey, guys, I heard a really big event's pairing app crashed. Again.
For hours.
*Four* hours.
I have never had a problem with "Brand X" pairing app. You ought to try it!"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/16 17:06:18


"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

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San Diego, CA

 Dysartes wrote:
Frankly, the TO side shouldn't be running server-side, but locally, probably with an upload to the server once all the results are in, and possibly once the pairings are made.

Having some form of export as a back-up before these points, which can be imported to restore an event in the case of a crash, would also make sense.

Having done results entry for multiple large events in the past, I'd also advocate for some form of paper results slip as a back-up to submitting results electronically, but that's just me thinking about worst-case scenarios for the software. Even if everything electronic gets corrupted due to a software crash, you can rebuild the event from the paper copies

Yeah, agree a restructuring of service architecture is probably in order. If nothing else, being at the mercy of a single WiFi network and spotty cell service is a potential issue. And yeah, probably a few layers of backup.
And I know this all costs money...but that's always a problem with growth. I'm sure they can figure that out.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
“Often enough, people’s nonsense cancelled out sufficiently that you got some great games, and competitive 8th was great fun – but I don’t think it would be unreasonable to say that it was kind of accidental.” - One Wing
 
   
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 Brothererekose wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ah yes right traditional white knight. Nothing dev's do can POSSIBLY be bad. It's perfect. Never mind numerous(no the LVO wasn' only time it has happned) crashes and delays caused by BCP there's NO WAY WHATSOEVER it could be improved.It's absolutely perfect and crashesh and delays in tournaments is just good feature!

Lol at white knights.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Now Kingsley expressing his opinion isn't evil,


I'll stop you right there then, that is possibly the saddest, most cringe worthy, underhanded attempt at slandering another poster I have seen in a fair while on this site.

"I'm not going to call you pure evil, but I am going to totally call you evil as I wield a famous quote with the skill of a toddler with a bolt pistol."



Mate, a few guys are discussing their opinions of a fething AP, on a gaming forum.

You knowing the devs on a first name bases is irrelevant. It's a sad attempt at sounding like your an authority somehow.

Suggesting a thread shouldn't exist or be locked because you disagree with the opinions is also irrelevant, and a bit extreme.

They are consumers of the product, which means they can and will have an opinion on it's quality.

Since you like quotes how about this one, "The correct response to bad ideas is with good ideas."

If there opinions are bogus it should be no trouble for you to enlighten them. But you might want to try a civil approach like an adult and not label other opinions as evil, their opinions as poo or with these:

BTW I happen to agree with your point on capitalism, the free market will sort out the bad products from the good, which is why if BCP is as good as your claim your emotional response is sorely misplaced.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/16 21:05:48


   
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Wow, Brothererekose, what a horrible post. If you are friends with the people who own BCP you do them a massive disservice posting in such a manner.

MODs ought to close this.


No, the mods shouldn't close this. It is a perfectly valid thread discussing whether a piece of TO software should be used, the fact that the piece of software keeps having issues makes this thread even more relevant (especially as it is monetized).

I also second the use of TTT(O), it is pretty much all that I use for events and have never had an issue with it. Used to use Cryodex but it to hard crashing problems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/16 23:38:02


On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
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Out of curiosity is TTT(O) live during the event and what's the largest number of people for a single event it's been used for?

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 Dysartes wrote:
It certainly had an impact on LVO this year (not sure if that is the incident you're referring to) - crashed after round 1, and took up to three hours to sort out what was going on.


The same thing happened last year too. It's a trash app. I went to LVO 17, 18, 19 and the app caused problems every year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Brothererekose wrote:
For those chiming in on 'not being involved' or not attending those events, maybe not post at all? Yer slinging poo that you don't really know much about.

I have attended the last 8 BAOs, all SoCals, and 8 of the LVOs. Yeah, round 1, occasionally crashes, and this last LVO there were a 3-4 hours delay, not their best moment.

BCP is still a great source for players. I can look up who defeated who, look at lists, for *any* event, because I subscribe, even if I didn't attend.

This is a bad thread. Capitalism's Mother Nature will out, that is, if BCP doesn't meet the needs, then it will fail.

It certainly doesn't need a thread with non-participatory dakkaites posting negatively, not knowing squat. That's simply wrong.



I *do* know Casey D, Paul K, and Garret M, enough to where they know me by name.

@Kingsley
If you don't like the app, stop paying for it. And know that 2019 was not the worst; it was this *last* LVO. Post accurately, with the facts, maybe? And great, you're playing something that isn't 40k, so why're you flinging poo that you're not involved in?

Are you really the guy playing soccer and telling everyone else that maybe basketball/baseball/lacross/volleyball isn't that good?

MODs ought to close this.


We've used in local events and half the time it doesn't work, forgets pairings and randomly drops attendees. Last fall our store had a 6 week escalation league, the ENTIRE BCP event had to be recreated each week from scratch because the app kept crashing and losing half of the attendees data. After the second crash, we abandoned it and went entirely to paper. They've had YEARS to fix it and still it's trash. Where has "capitalism's Mother Nature" (whatever the feth that means) been all this time?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/17 03:00:51


 
   
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Illinois

It's trash. I tried to subscribe and actually give them money at one point and it would constantly crash before it would take my payment.
   
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 Hulksmash wrote:
Out of curiosity is TTT(O) live during the event and what's the largest number of people for a single event it's been used for?


It is live yes. Couldn't tell you on the second, largest I have ever attended was 120ish.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
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 Hulksmash wrote:
Out of curiosity is TTT(O) live during the event and what's the largest number of people for a single event it's been used for?


I'm pretty sure it was used for a couple of the larger X-Wing events after Cryodex disappeared, so probably around 500 is the most TTO has been used for that I'm aware of. Seems pretty stable overall, possibly because it tries to do a bit less than BCP.

Also, @Brothererokose, thanks for the good laugh this morning as you compare yourself to FDR saving the world from the tyranny of the Nazis while you defend...a tournament app. And you think this is "perhaps" hyperbole. Perhaps? I was not at LVO this year but I have been at events where BCP was used and it does seem to have had problems in a lot of those cases as well as having issues at events I'm aware of but wasn't attending. Discussion of those failures isn't really kicking someone when they're down assuming the information people are discussing is accurate and the criticism is of the app rather than personal attacks on the devs. After BCP had issues at previous LVOs I was actually surprised to see it still in use at LVO 2020 and then completely unsurprised to see it fall over again. For the benefit of TOs and attendees everywhere I think BCP either needs to step up its game very quickly or be dropped by the TO community in favour of solutions that work, such as TTO.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Never used TTT(O), used Down Under Pairings a couple of times, BCP far too much and a good old spreadsheet setup on more than one occation.

BCP to me, is like the LGT. IT promises to get better and better every year, but is often found lacking. BCP needs its LGT2019 moment where things finally fall into place.

As for BCPs reliability i find it hit or miss most of the time. I wasn't even at the LVO this year, but i logged in to take a look at some lists etc, and if it was laggy for me on my somewhat decent wifi at home, i can't imagine what it was like for users at the event. I just find it far from optimal from a user friendly pov.

Personally i have no intention of ever subbing to the app, but, i can understand why people do.
   
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Austria

 Togusa wrote:

We've used in local events and half the time it doesn't work, forgets pairings and randomly drops attendees. Last fall our store had a 6 week escalation league, the ENTIRE BCP event had to be recreated each week from scratch because the app kept crashing and losing half of the attendees data. After the second crash, we abandoned it and went entirely to paper.


Question out of personal interest, why didn't you use an offline program?
Is it because those are not Apps (from playstore) for tablet use or for other reasons?

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 kodos wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

We've used in local events and half the time it doesn't work, forgets pairings and randomly drops attendees. Last fall our store had a 6 week escalation league, the ENTIRE BCP event had to be recreated each week from scratch because the app kept crashing and losing half of the attendees data. After the second crash, we abandoned it and went entirely to paper.


Question out of personal interest, why didn't you use an offline program?
Is it because those are not Apps (from playstore) for tablet use or for other reasons?


I was not running the event, I only participated in it. What I can tell you is that against my advice the store insisted on running the app to "support" the developer. I advised them that I'd been through this three times at LVO and that is was a bad idea. The lesson had to be learned the hard way unfortunately. Two of the players got so mad about losing their scores that they dropped from the event entirely.
   
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Los Angeles

 ingtaer wrote:
Wow, Brothererekose, what a horrible post.


With so many criticizing my post, I guess I'm in the wrong. My position seemed right at the time (and my words used), though I'm nursing doubts now.

So, sincere apologies, all. Kingsley, especially.

@ingtaer
If I'm undermining their cause, then I'm sure those guys will chime in to me at some point, with a "Casey, do us a favor and shaddap." Deservedly, apparently.

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Fargo, ND USA

 Brothererekose wrote:

I will be someone's White Knight any day, 24/7, everyday of the year, rather than let go an unwarranted attack.


Except this "attack" isn't unwarranted. They literally delayed the largest event in the country by hours affecting not only the event's schedule but the schedule of literally every single person attending the event. And it's hardly the only time this has happened. Questioning whether or not it should continue to be used is very much warranted.

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Hey no need to keep piling on I think, he already apologized for the original post. No worries Erekose I've definitely been there myself, it's all good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 15:42:10


 
   
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Colorado Springs, CO

I had some pretty significant troubles with BCP at the LWD event at LVO this year.

-The app let me sign in, but then it wouldn't load the event or let me register in the app.
-Once the TO registered me, the app recognized the event under 'my events' but still wouldn't load the event for me.
-The app didn't transfer my participation even AFTER the TO went in and registered me. This delayed my pairings in round 2 and 3
-I still don't know what any of my final scores are because they weren't saved in the app like everyone else's.

I've never seen an event use BCP and NOT have issues, although LVO was the worst experience I've had yet. After LVO, I think I'd rather just use a fancy excel spreadsheet and call it a day.

I appreciate that a lot of hard work has probably gone into BCP, but it really negatively impacts things when you buy, build and paint an army, fly to a big event with your friends, pay good money to participate in said big event, and then not even get a final score for your troubles because the app decided it didn't like you that day.

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Just out of curiosity has there been a 40k ITC GT scale event where the BCP app didn't cause any issues? It seems to work fine for the local tourneys around town, but I always see these types of posts around large GTs. Heck, even at wargamescon when I was helping out one year the database ate it and we had to manual pair round 4 (or was it 5?). They really need an offline mode for the TO side to keep it 100% backed up for when it eats it in the future. Minor inconvenience to head up to the desk to report scores if offline is down, but that's what we did before this app came along anyways.
   
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Ohio

I've gone to over 20 events in the past year or so with about 10 or so being GT or higher level. Non a single event had an issue that I can recall. If it had one, it was so minor it didn't affect anything.
   
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Halifax, Nova Scotia

I went to 3 GT's last year. None had any issues with BCP.

Not that it's flawless - currently I can only find events I'm registered in by searching for them by name, for example.
   
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Home Base: Waconia, MN (Minneapolis)

Literally the only events I've ever seen it be an issue at are Nova and LVO. I generally attend 12ish RTT and 4-5 GT's a year that use the system.

With Nova it generally wasn't BCP but the connections in the venue. At the 2018 LVO we had about a 45 minute delay due to the system which isn't much more annoying than the standard late start at any large GT. This year was....handled poorly. Granted it was being used for a large number of events at LVO itself and the system crashed on the largest individual 40k event ever (just shy of 800 players round 1) but it was something that should have been anticipated.

I'm not willing to throw out the system over a single major event breakdown when it's worked well to great for every other event I attend in a year.

Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






I was not able to go to LVO this year due to a sudden work emergency, but it sounded really awful.

My recommendation is to always have contingencies. Expect the app to break and have a plan to resolve the problem.
   
 
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