Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've noticed last few tomes abilities or spells which would allow for rerolls of a specific die (normally 1) has now been reworded into reroll failed. And it's happening ALOT with the most recent books (Slaves to Darkness stands out particularly for this, rerolling hit, wound and saves on a unit is now a reliable thing to count now each turn).

It's a massive issue in 40k, some armies can reroll everything under the sun and others lack this ability altogether. I am very much of the mindset of don't add full rerolls unless it's strictly condition or has a payoff. I dislike this turn in AoS where everything seems to be hitting and wounding on a new level of consistency when armour saves across the board are lower and things die very quick already.

What is everyone elses thought on this? Am I just being fussy? Anyone else getting annoyed at the way the game feels to play when every die can be rerolled?

Re-roll failed is the better version than re-roll all, honestly its re-roll all thats more of a problem, they can fish for MW spam on 6's and negatives to hit doesn't stop a re-roll either.

Part of re-rolls to to show the power of a unit, many units don't have them and instead just hit on 1+ and wound on 2+, i would rather there be more +1 to hits and wounds so we can speed up the game, but i can understand why re-rolls are more favored (b.c you cant re-roll a re-roll, but a 1+ to hit means you ignore -1 mod and still able to re-roll 1's basically never missing).

So i don't really feel its a problem at all.

It is in 40k b.c of many reason that i'm not getting into right now as it would take me 20min to type it all out.

The amount of rerolls is a bit annoying yes. I would prefer them be special and rare, just like i prefer summoning and mortal wounds to be special and rare.

I missed the bus on all three lol.

You're not the only one at all, I've seen other such complaints on Dakka!

They definitely slow down the game which isn't ideal.

The fact that CP exists in it's current form at all annoys me.
I say that as a salamanders player (going all the way back to 5th) to boot.

In the back compatible editions 3rd - 7th. re-rolls did exist but only for very few situations. twin linked weapons. CC if a chaplain was in the CC fight psyker abilities like doom/guide for eldar. master crafted weapons (only a single failed to hit-re-roll). spiky bits for chaos for wounding in CC like master crafted worked for hitting, but for the most part-what you rolled is what you got and you just moved on. it was faster and more fluid in my experience.

The problem with 8th is CP farming that begets min-maxing. most players take a double batallion detachment to get a minimum 10 CP. if it was implemented more like infinity did CP in N3 it would be far more reasonable. where both players get the exact same number without concern for army size or units taken. and they are restricted to very few specific things in the game.

 aphyon wrote:
The fact that CP exists in it's current form at all annoys me.
I say that as a salamanders player (going all the way back to 5th) to boot.

In the back compatible editions 3rd - 7th. re-rolls did exist but only for very few situations. twin linked weapons. CC if a chaplain was in the CC fight psyker abilities like doom/guide for eldar. master crafted weapons (only a single failed to hit-re-roll). spiky bits for chaos for wounding in CC like master crafted worked for hitting, but for the most part-what you rolled is what you got and you just moved on. it was faster and more fluid in my experience.

The problem with 8th is CP farming that begets min-maxing. most players take a double batallion detachment to get a minimum 10 CP. if it was implemented more like infinity did CP in N3 it would be far more reasonable. where both players get the exact same number without concern for army size or units taken. and they are restricted to very few specific things in the game.

Wrong game. This is for Age of Sigmar, not 40K.

 Ghaz wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
The fact that CP exists in it's current form at all annoys me.
I say that as a salamanders player (going all the way back to 5th) to boot.

In the back compatible editions 3rd - 7th. re-rolls did exist but only for very few situations. twin linked weapons. CC if a chaplain was in the CC fight psyker abilities like doom/guide for eldar. master crafted weapons (only a single failed to hit-re-roll). spiky bits for chaos for wounding in CC like master crafted worked for hitting, but for the most part-what you rolled is what you got and you just moved on. it was faster and more fluid in my experience.

The problem with 8th is CP farming that begets min-maxing. most players take a double batallion detachment to get a minimum 10 CP. if it was implemented more like infinity did CP in N3 it would be far more reasonable. where both players get the exact same number without concern for army size or units taken. and they are restricted to very few specific things in the game.

Wrong game. This is for Age of Sigmar, not 40K.

OOPS!

sorry about that, didn't notice the system in the new post section. my mind was on 40K

 aphyon wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
The fact that CP exists in it's current form at all annoys me.
I say that as a salamanders player (going all the way back to 5th) to boot.

In the back compatible editions 3rd - 7th. re-rolls did exist but only for very few situations. twin linked weapons. CC if a chaplain was in the CC fight psyker abilities like doom/guide for eldar. master crafted weapons (only a single failed to hit-re-roll). spiky bits for chaos for wounding in CC like master crafted worked for hitting, but for the most part-what you rolled is what you got and you just moved on. it was faster and more fluid in my experience.

The problem with 8th is CP farming that begets min-maxing. most players take a double batallion detachment to get a minimum 10 CP. if it was implemented more like infinity did CP in N3 it would be far more reasonable. where both players get the exact same number without concern for army size or units taken. and they are restricted to very few specific things in the game.

Wrong game. This is for Age of Sigmar, not 40K.

OOPS!

sorry about that, didn't notice the system in the new post section. my mind was on 40K

The comparison isn't invalid when it comes to rerolls at least. I often joke when playing my Skaven that I'm bringing a 40k army to a Fantasy fight, not just because of the amount of guns, but because of the ever increasing amount of Rerolls. Reroll 1s for a CP, reroll hits/wounds for a spell, reroll hits on a unit for a command trait, reroll hits when not moving for a unit. I only played a little bit of 7e 40k, but Space Marines getting rerolls then was a big deal and pretty special. Now it's just spammed everywhere, and it seems like GW's attempt to increase a unit's power, without straight boosting stat values or layering unique special rules. Or hell, it increases the value of a unit without reducing its point cost. (points cost vs damage output)

Edit: I wouldn't say I'm burnt out by rerolls. It doesn't take up any more time for my armies with prolific rerolls compared to other players in my area just not remembering their rules and needing to check their book any time their batteline units breathe.

Yeah, I am a bit burned out by re-roll everything's. I am with Auticus in that I feel it should be much more rare, like MWs should be much more rare. Not only is it powerful but it practically takes extra time that really starts to add up over the course of a game.

Rerolls and mortal wound spamming (and ignoring) and summoning are all problematic. Question is, how do you fix them exactly? Reroll save rolls of 1 is a handy, simple shield bonus. What else is there? +1 save seems too powerful these days.

USR for shields aren't the way to go. Different shield's have different effects, baked in to units cause shields no longer have a cost to them. Skaven Shields - units with 10+ models get +1 armor. Ossiarchs - Can spend RDP to reroll saves. Other units just have more armor than similar units who don't have shields, or reroll saves of 1. Chaos shields have mortal wound FNP. Sure there's loads I missed.

Yeah that’s true, most shield effects are unique to the army/unit on their warscroll. A lot do have the reroll 1 ability though.

I quite like counting rend -1 as 0 myself as a mechanic.

Question is, how do you fix them exactly?

The box is already open. You don't fix it.

I don't know which units have that besides Seraphon shields, so once more it's unique to just once faction. Isn't there another shield type that gives +1 armor against AP0 specifically? Or am I misremembering and thinking that Rubric Marines rule is also in AoS.


But, back on topic, I don't feel like armies with rerolls don't make the game much longer than any other armies mechanics, or the simple human flaw/difference where some people just can't memorize their army stats and abilities. I can guarantee that me taking 28 shots from two Stormfiend Ratling cannons, and rerolling the 14 or so that fail, then rolling all the wounds, rerolling failed wounds then telling the opponent how many saves to make takes less, if not the same amount of time as people needing to check their basic unit stats every time they do anything. However, one is a mechanic and the other is a personal problem. I don't see either as too big of a deal, especially not when my average AoS game goes for two-ish hours.

Oh, and people who don't bring enough dice to roll a unit's worth of attacks at once. That takes a long time too.

I never played Fantasy, so I can't speak to time difference between WHFB and AoS, but I can speak to the large drop in game time length between 7e and 8e Warhammer 40k at the same points cost, even though most armies got bigger. And 8e 40k hands out rerolls like candy.

A 2000 point game of whfb and a 2000 point game of AOS play in roughly the same timeframe.

 auticus wrote:
A 2000 point game of whfb and a 2000 point game of AOS play in roughly the same timeframe.

It depends who you fight against, sometimes its highly dependent if the other player got their lucky spell cast off and you decided to play again!

It can be fixed with better balance and better rules design, like many of AoS' problems so far. It's a complete lottery for if a given release is well designed, horribly designed, something in-between, or even a mix of both. Which is largely just how GW does its Warhammers (AoS and 40k) right now. At least the results are usually fun to play.

I think the cities of sigmar battle tome is a way to cut back on it. Instead of worrying about re-rolls now you gotta worry about which buffs buff which attack stat. I think I like it a bit better, and it can be manipulated enough to make it interesting. The only problem I see is the interaction with debuffs.

I wouldnt mind the rerolls so much if I was rolling one set of weapons for the unit.

But when the unit has multiple different weapon profiles, for minimal actual difference in effect, that really slows things down.

 Stux wrote:
I wouldnt mind the rerolls so much if I was rolling one set of weapons for the unit.

But when the unit has multiple different weapon profiles, for minimal actual difference in effect, that really slows things down.

This is a fair point actually. What sometimes bugs me is a unit having two ‘different’ weapon profiles that are really just the same but with the hit/wound characteristics swapped over, which is more or less statistically identical. I have suggestions but it basically means rewriting the whole game.

 auticus wrote:
The box is already open. You don't fix it.

Because it would require a whole new edition?

 Stux wrote:
I wouldnt mind the rerolls so much if I was rolling one set of weapons for the unit.

But when the unit has multiple different weapon profiles, for minimal actual difference in effect, that really slows things down.

This is a fair point actually. What sometimes bugs me is a unit having two ‘different’ weapon profiles that are really just the same but with the hit/wound characteristics swapped over, which is more or less statistically identical. I have suggestions but it basically means rewriting the whole game.

 auticus wrote:
The box is already open. You don't fix it.

Because it would require a whole new edition?



Yeah it’s unique to the seraphon. Although I have a feeling that it’ll be changed come the new book. And I don’t think a USR is the way to go either. Different techniques with different shields suit different rules. But reroll save rolls of 1 is a common one. Cities Of Sigmar, Stormcast Eternals...I’m sure there was someone else.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Stux wrote:
I wouldnt mind the rerolls so much if I was rolling one set of weapons for the unit.

But when the unit has multiple different weapon profiles, for minimal actual difference in effect, that really slows things down.

This is a fair point actually. What sometimes bugs me is a unit having two ‘different’ weapon profiles that are really just the same but with the hit/wound characteristics swapped over, which is more or less statistically identical. I have suggestions but it basically means rewriting the whole game.

Yeah, that sort of thing really bugs me!

I get there is a difference if modifiers are in play. That if you hava a weapon that hits on 3s, wounds on 4s and another that hits on 4s wounds on 3s without any other interference they will have equal saves. But with a +1 to hit the first weapon forces 0.42 saves per attack, and the second 0.44. It's not IDENTICAL, and that isnt necessarily intuitive if you dont have a strong handling of the maths.

But... is a 4% ish increase in number of saves to make for one profile vs the other in a niche circumstance enough nuance between weapons to justify rolling two pools of dice?

When I might be rerolling 1s to hit, 1s wound, and then opponent rerolling some of their saves (maybe making a FNP or Harvester type roll too!), I would say no!

Perceived nuance may have some value in the game, to make different weapons FEEL different even if the result is almost identical. But at least for me it is not at all worth it with so many rerolls.

Just make special weapons have extra attacks. Even extra damage is fine, as I can easily use coloured dice and not worry about it until damage is allocated. But I'd really appreciate trying to make hit and wound rolls the same for the majority of weapons in a unit.

Because it would require a whole new edition?

It would require re-writing all of the tomes to pull those things back so yeah essentially a new edition. Some would also say repointing but ... the points are already so skewed that it needs repointed as is anyway that if you DIDNT repoint the books, I think you'd get the same overall experience and results.

Thing is I think that most AOS fans love those things (the over kill summoning, mortal wound spamming, and re-rolls) and I wouldn't expect any type of change to those structures in 3.0.

But is it really a problem over all, or just a problem with a few armies?
The 4 armies that i played a lot in AOS, 2 of them has only a couple units with re-rolls, heck my CoS has 0 re-rolls and when i was playing Goblins there was no re-rolls either (at least how i was playing), my IDK is just re-roll 1's, normally only was re-rolling maybe 12 dice at the most for a 9 man Eel unit, thats not a lot honestly. My BoC is the most Re-rolls out of all my armies, and that is only on 4 units or if i take Khorne Battalion, Raiders of 20+, Bestigors only vs Order, Ungors with 20+ (never play more than 10 so...) and finally Enlighten on Disc's (only if i fight 2nd).

I'm more mad about if we get Aqshy vs a good horde melee army, b.c i can never deny those 2 stupidly OP spells (+1 to wounds, +1 to damage)

I'd say realistically its mainly a problem with several books as opposed to all books. But those several books get played exponentially more than the other books because of it, which makes the issue larger than it probably is overall.

Re-rolls aren't too big of a problem, so long as they are either; 1) Not readily available or 2) If they are easily gotten by an army, the models are appropriately pointed for the damage output.

A reroll can achieve the same result percentage wise as a raw stat increase, and while the reroll does make the process take longer, it also has a non-mechanical effect of making the player FEEL like they're more in control of the randomness.


As an aside, I'd consider Gloomspite Gitz and army that can get prolific rerolls of 1 to hit, what with the amount of Command Points the army seems to generate on a regular basis.

 Thadin wrote:
Re-rolls aren't too big of a problem, so long as they are either; 1) Not readily available or 2) If they are easily gotten by an army, the models are appropriately pointed for the damage output.

A reroll can achieve the same result percentage wise as a raw stat increase, and while the reroll does make the process take longer, it also has a non-mechanical effect of making the player FEEL like they're more in control of the randomness.


As an aside, I'd consider Gloomspite Gitz and army that can get prolific rerolls of 1 to hit, what with the amount of Command Points the army seems to generate on a regular basis.

Re-rolls also heavily effect special rules and abilities that happen on X or X+, something that changing the stats won't effect.

Good point. Rerolls could easily be replaced by abilities that boost hit/wound rolls directly, while reducing the amount of Dice Result fishing that comes from it. It wouldn't be a big problem now with the "Unmodified Result = effect" philosophy seen in rules. Example, old Blightking Sword vs new Blightking Sword, and any other roll of 6 = effect changing to Unmodified.

With rerolls, you eventually end up with the mathematical equivalent of stat bonuses anyway, but quicker and neater.

Actually I tell a lie. Messing around with my calculator shows that stat bonuses are slightly better. But wouldn’t it be nice to just cut straight to the point?

Target audience loves rolling buckets of dice and rerolling them *shrug*.

I mentioned it earlier, it's a non-mechanical feel thing. Rerolling dice gives a feeling of control over the result, even though it really doesn't. I know for myself it feels nice to reroll a bunch of misses in to hits after applying buffs to my units.