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A friend asked our local community this:

Question, shooting phase. if all readied models already fired the one who has initiative gets to shoot non readied first even after his model was the last of the readied models to shoot?

My answer:

Yep. That's the way I see it as Fire at Will! is a separate sub-phase. It should only be right and proper that the Fire at Will sub-phase should start with the player who has the highest initiative.

However, GW is quite vague as it starts the Fire at Will section with this line:

Once the Ready, Fire! section of the Shooting phase is over, players take it in turn to choose a model from their kill team to shoot with

Am I wrong or am I right?

The full sentence of the rule will answer your question.

...in the order determined in the Initiative phase.

 Cheex wrote:
The full sentence of the rule will answer your question.

...in the order determined in the Initiative phase.

That bit is still ambiguous as the "Ready, Fire!" (in which Readied models fire in the order determined in the Initiative phase) and the "Fire at Will" (in which the non-Readied models fire in the order determined in the Initiative phase) are different sub-phases.

It is my view that at the beginning of the "Fire at Will" sub-phase, the initiative count "resets" to the player with the highest initiative as it's a different segment that's independent of the preceding sub-phase (ie, the "Ready, Fire!" sub-phase) regardless of whose model fired last in the "Ready, Fire!" sub-phase. So even if the last model that fired in the "Ready, Fire!" sub-phase belonged to the player with the highest initiative, in the "Fire at Will" sub-phase, the next model to fire would still be one of the models of the same player (ie, the one with the highest initiative).

Saying

.The full sentence of the rule will answer your question.

..in the order determined in the Initiative phase.

is very much confusing as it does not belong to the "you're right" or "you're wrong" camps. :(

Not meaning to be rude or anything, just trying to clear this up as my friend is still confused. I'm pretty sure I'm right but I just want someone to validate/invalidate my view with supporting lines from GW stuff.

Going over the rules again, I am changing my answer.

The initiative section says:

"In the Initiative phase, the players each roll 2D6. The players’ results determine who has the first turn in each phase in this battle round, with the highest scorer taking the first turn, the next highest taking the second turn and so on."

Ready, Fire and Fire at Will are NOT phases.

There is no designers commentary or errata relevant to this.

In Ready, Fire and Fire at Will it tells us that you go in the order determined in the initiative phase. But the initiative phase just determines who goes first in each phase, it has nothing to do with each sub phase.

It is pretty vague. My interpretation is that the text in the sub phases telling you to go in the order determined in the initiative phase is telling you to start with the person that has initiative but I can also see where OP's friend is coming from. If it said to start with the person that has initiative then it would be clear, I believe that this is what they're trying to say with "in the order determined in the Initiative phase".

Yeah, when I teach Kill Team I basically say that the Shooting and Combat phases have two major sub-phases. The Readied and non-Readied sub-phases for Shooting and the Charge and non-Charge sub-phases for Combat. I think it makes it so much easier for a new player to grasp who has initiative that way along with gets to act and who doesn't.

 PPPointyEars wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
The full sentence of the rule will answer your question.

...in the order determined in the Initiative phase.

That bit is still ambiguous as the "Ready, Fire!" (in which Readied models fire in the order determined in the Initiative phase) and the "Fire at Will" (in which the non-Readied models fire in the order determined in the Initiative phase) are different sub-phases.

It's not at all ambiguous. The Ready, Fire! sub-phase tells you to resolve shots in the order determined by the Initiative phase. Once both players have finished firing all readied models, that section of the phase is over. Then the Fire At Will sub-phase tells you to resolve shots in the order determined by the Initiative phase.

So yes, you are correct. Whoever has initiative fires first in the Fire At Will sub-phase. Nothing in the rule cares about who fired the last model in the Ready, Fire! sub-phase.

 Cheex wrote:

 PPPointyEars wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
The full sentence of the rule will answer your question.

...in the order determined in the Initiative phase.

That bit is still ambiguous as the "Ready, Fire!" (in which Readied models fire in the order determined in the Initiative phase) and the "Fire at Will" (in which the non-Readied models fire in the order determined in the Initiative phase) are different sub-phases.

It's not at all ambiguous. The Ready, Fire! sub-phase tells you to resolve shots in the order determined by the Initiative phase. Once both players have finished firing all readied models, that section of the phase is over. Then the Fire At Will sub-phase tells you to resolve shots in the order determined by the Initiative phase.

So yes, you are correct. Whoever has initiative fires first in the Fire At Will sub-phase. Nothing in the rule cares about who fired the last model in the Ready, Fire! sub-phase.

The way my mind works, I'm more partial towards Cheex's answer. It makes the Ready status and wining the initiative have a more potent effect on the way a game plays out rather than just continuing the initiative across both sub-phases; it makes the game much more tactical.

The initiative phase only determines who fires first in the phase.

Fire at Will is not a phase. It's definitely ambiguous.

My 2c is that they're trying to say that the player who has the initiative goes first in each subphase but they did a really bad job of saying that.

Myself and everyone I’ve ever played with (and any video I’ve watched - not necessarily hundreds mind you) has always gone with Cheex’s answer.
I didn’t think it’s really ambiguous..

I said the same thing and then I looked more closely at what the rules actually say.

This is what the section referred to says
"In the Initiative phase, the players each roll 2D6. The players’ results determine who has the first turn in each phase in this battle round, with the highest scorer taking the first turn, the next highest taking the second turn and so on."

It tells us who fires first in the phase and nothing else.

Then it says
"The player with the first turn is referred to as the player with the initiative."

So they could have said in the fire at will subphase "starting with the player that has the initiative" but they didn't.

I agree with how to play it but it definitely isn't what the rules say.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
So they could have said in the fire at will subphase "starting with the player that has the initiative" but they didn't.

What does it mean, then, when the Fire At Will rule says "...in the order determined in the Initiative phase"?

Starting the phase (not sub-phase) with the player that has the initiative and continuing in that order. That is what you determined in the initiative phase.

There's nothing in the FAQs, errata or commentary to help us either way.

If they meant that the player that has the initiative should start the sub-phase then they should have and could have just said that. They established the language for that in the initiative phase section and then didn't use it.

I agree that's probably what they were trying to say (and it's how I would play it) but they did a horrible job of it. I can see where someone looking closely at the text of the initiative phase section could be confused.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

I agree that's probably what they were trying to say (and it's how I would play it) but they did a horrible job of it. I can see where someone looking closely at the text of the initiative phase section could be confused.

Yeah, there are parts in the manual that are badly phrased.

I guess it's time to watch videos of the Nova Open and other big tournaments and see how they handled it.

Taking another shot at this.

On page 28, under the Fire At Will section, this line appears (bold font for emphasis; not shouting or anything):

Once the Ready, Fire! section of the Shooting phase is over, players take it in turn to choose a model from their kill team to shoot with, or pass, in the order determined in the Initiative phase.

So I do think Cheex's answer is right. Both sections, "Ready, Fire" and "Fire At Will," are separate; when the former resolves, the latter begins in the order determined in the Initiative phase.

So if say, there are five models left, Player 1 has the highest initiate and the first three models are Readied, this happens:

Ready, Fire:

Player 1's Model 1 fires first
Player 2's Model 1 fires second
Player 1's Model 2 fires third

Fire At Will (begins in the order determined in the Initiative phase):

Player 1's Model 3 fires fourth
Player 2's Model 2 fires last

Ready, Fire and Fire at Will aren't phases, the Shooting Phase is. In the initiative phase you determine who goes first in the phase.

In the Initiative phase, the players each roll 2D6. The players’ results determine who has the first turn in each phase in this battle round, with the highest scorer taking the first turn, the next highest taking the second turn and so on.

So a literal reading of the rules does not agree with your proposal (although it's how I would play it).

Assuming your proposal is what they meant then they should have said "starting with the player who has the initiative", per the language they established in the initiative phase section.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Ready, Fire and Fire at Will aren't phases, the Shooting Phase is. In the initiative phase you determine who goes first in the phase.

In the Initiative phase, the players each roll 2D6. The players’ results determine who has the first turn in each phase in this battle round, with the highest scorer taking the first turn, the next highest taking the second turn and so on.

So a literal reading of the rules does not agree with your proposal (although it's how I would play it).

Assuming your proposal is what they meant then they should have said "starting with the player who has the initiative", per the language they established in the initiative phase section.

Hmm you do have a point. But I dunno man, if we followed that, I do believe it dilutes both being Readied and having the initiative. But of course, it's just my two cents.

I'll have several Kill Team vets take a look at this. I hope Glass Half Dead isn't busy these days and will reply to me in Facebook. We'll see what they've to say.

I think they were trying to say that each section of the shooting phase starts with the player that has the initiative, they just messed it up...

That's how I play it (and it seems that most people do) but you should be aware that the RAW doesn't match should someone dig into what the initiative phase section actually says.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I think they were trying to say that each section of the shooting phase starts with the player that has the initiative, they just messed it up...

Yeah that has been my point the entire thread: The player with the initiative fires first for each sub-section of the Shooting phase (regardless if that same player activated the last model in the Ready, Fire sub-phase (or "section" if you like that term better), he will still fire first in the Fire at Will sub-phase/section).

"Section" is the word that the rules use.

That definitely plays better but it's just not what the rules say and it's important to be aware of where the RAW and HYWPI don't align if you play with strangers.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
"Section" is the word that the rules use.

That definitely plays better but it's just not what the rules say and it's important to be aware of where the RAW and HYWPI don't align if you play with strangers.

I took another look at this thread and now, I do believe our belief alignes with the RAW Scott.

I mean take a look at this:

Once the Ready, Fire! section of the Shooting phase is over, players take it in turn to choose a model from their kill team to shoot with, or pass, in the order determined in the Initiative phase.

The key clauses there are the following:

when the Ready, Fire! section [u]is over

and:

players take it in turn to choose a model from their kill team to shoot with, or pass, in the order determined in the Initiative phase

so it does align with our interpretation that when the when the Ready, Fire! section is over the next section (the Fire at Will! section) begins in the order determined in the Initiative phase

So hence, this:

So if say, there are five models left, Player 1 has the highest initiative and the first three models are Readied, this happens:

Ready, Fire:

Player 1's Model 1 fires first
Player 2's Model 1 fires second
Player 1's Model 2 fires third

Fire At Will (begins in the order determined in the Initiative phase):

Player 1's Model 3 fires fourth
Player 2's Model 2 fires last

is the way it should go RAW and RAI.