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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Hi all, I'd like your advice on refining, changing or fighting this list

1998 Points
Battleforged, +3 CP
Emergency Dispensation, -3 CP

Battalion Detachment, +5 CP
T’au Sept, 1106 Points
+HQ+
Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit (146)
> 4x Fusion Blasters, Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters & Exemplar of the Mont'ka
Cadre Fireblade (42)
> Pulse Rifle, Photon Grenades & Markerlight

+Troops+
5 Fire Warrior Strike Team (38)
> Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades & 1x Markerlight
5 Fire Warrior Strike Team (38)
> Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades & 1x Markerlight
5 Fire Warrior Strike Team (38)
> Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades & 1x Markerlight

+Fast Attack+
8 Tactical Drones (80)
> 8x MV4 Shield Drones
8 Tactical Drones (80)
> 8x MV4 Shield Drones
7 Tactical Drones (70)
> 7x MV4 Shield Drones

+Elites+
XV104 Riptide (287)
> Amplified Ion Accelerator, 2x Smart Missile Systems, Velocity Tracker & Target Lock
XV104 Riptide (287)
> Amplified Ion Accelerator, 2x Smart Missile Systems, Velocity Tracker & Target Lock


Battalion Detachment, +5 CP
T’au Sept, 201 Points
+HQ+
Darkstrider (45)
> Pulse Carbine, Photon Grenades & Markerlight
Cadre Fireblade (42)
> Pulse Rifle, Photon Grenades & Markerlight

+Troops+
5 Fire Warrior Strike Team (38)
> Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades & 1x Markerlight
5 Fire Warrior Strike Team (38)
> Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades & 1x Markerlight
5 Fire Warrior Strike Team (38)
> Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades & 1x Markerlight


Battalion Detachment, +5 CP
T’au Sept, 691 Points
+HQ+
Commander Shadowsun (127)
2x High-Energy Fusion Blasters, Light Missile Pod, Flechette Launcher & Pulse Pistol
Accompanied by: 1x MV37 Advanced Guardian Drone & 1x MV62 Command-Link Drone

Cadre Fireblade (42)
> Pulse Rifle, Photon Grenades & Markerlight

+Troops+
5 Fire Warrior Strike Team (38)
> Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades & 1x Markerlight
5 Fire Warrior Strike Team (38)
> Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades & 1x Markerlight
5 Fire Warrior Strike Team (38)
> Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades & 1x Markerlight

+Elites+
XV95 Ghostkeel (136)
Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Counterfire Defence System & Shield Generator
Accompanied by: 2x MV5 Stealth Drones

XV95 Ghostkeel (136)
Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Counterfire Defence System & Shield Generator
Accompanied by: 2x MV5 Stealth Drones

XV95 Ghostkeel (136)
Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Burst Cannons, Counterfire Defence System & Shield Generator
Accompanied by: 2x MV5 Stealth Drones



The Ghostkeels & Shadowsun Infiltrate as a group (with all members within 6" of all others), using a point as bait. This gives the opponent three options: Charge, Shoot or Ignore.
If charged, the Ghostkeels use their Overwatch of 5+, rerolling all failed hits (55% accuracy). Also, if they made the charge and survived, the opponents are off the point. <FLY> fallback under Mont'ka and shoot.
If shot, their: -2 to Hit, T6, W10 & 2+/4++/6+++ makes them tough, but for 2 CP it can be made to -3 to Hit (Neuroweb System Jammer).
If they are ignored then Shadowsun declares Kauyon and they turn the bait into a shooting gallery.

The Fire Warriors remain in three groups of three units, each with a Cadre Fireblade. Darkstrider floats between the groups, wherever most required. They provide Markerlight support, mid/back objective capture & anti-infantry/anti-swarm.

The Riptides share the Shield Drones and eliminate key enemy units while being nigh-untouchable in return.
The Amplified Ion Accelerator can be considered a much more consistent Castellan Knights' Volcano Lance;
80", Heavy d6, S14, AP-5, D3d3 (Volcano Lance)
72", Heavy 6, S9, Ap-4, D3+d3 (Amplified Ion Accelerator)

The Coldstar Commander joins either the Riptides or Ghostkeels with 40" <FLY> and provides anti-tank fire support. Moving 6" after shooting means the Fusion Blasters will usually be within half-range and it will be safe, being a <CHARACTER>.

Despite swimming in CP, I never finish a match with any - T'au Stratagems are excellent.


UPDATE
Thank you all for your input,
The Greater Good FAQ was released earlier and I'll be making the following changes:

XV104 Riptide (273)
> Amplified Ion Accelerator, 2x Plasma Rifles, Velocity Tracker & Target Lock
XV104 Riptide (280)
> Heavy Burst Cannon, 2x Smart Missile Systems, Advanced Targeting System & Target Lock
8 Tactical Drones (80) (from 7)
> 8x MV4 Shield Drones

Only 1 copy of each Prototype! But it's been confirmed we can get up to three of them. With that, a Heavy Burst Cannon at 18 shots is better than a standard Ion Accelerator. An Advanced Targeting System is almost mandatory with it, and the Smart Missile Systems at AP-1 are a welcome bonus. Saving points to afford it and the extra Drone by replacing the AP 0 Smart Missile Systems with Plasma Rifles on the AIA-tide.

Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit (146)
> 4x Fusion Blasters, Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters, Exemplar of the Mont'ka & Cross-Linked Stabiliser Jets

Seeing as Relic + Prototype is allowed (but not more than 1 Prototype per unit), Quadstar with: 40" <FLY> Advance with no penalty, 6" fire-and-fade and rerolling all Hit & Wound rolls of 1.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/11 19:35:34


 
   
Made in de
Disbeliever of the Greater Good



Denmark

Kinda new but this seems super fun! Do you think this strategic can be adopted to a 1750 point game? I've got an upcoming game in a few weeks where this tactic could be fun!
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Livermore, Ca

I like it except... I think you should run one or both riptides as heavy burst cannons. If you face an all primaris infantry list you'll be happy for the change. Plus I think you can squeeze in one or two more sheild drones.

Whats your plan against deepstrikers that ignore overwatch? I see you can screen your back field pretty easily with all the infantry.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




wrynil wrote:
Kinda new but this seems super fun! Do you think this strategic can be adopted to a 1750 point game? I've got an upcoming game in a few weeks where this tactic could be fun!


I appreciate the positivity!

> I'd dump 3 Strike Teams & a Cadre Fireblade, down-grading a Battalion Detachment to a Vanguard. (4 CP lost, but 11 is plenty).
> Next I'd change both Riptide's Smart Missile Systems to Plasma Rifles and lose the Velocity Trackers. (Luxury items, really).
> Finally I'd reduce all 3 Tactical Drone Squads to 6x MV4 Shield Drones. (Won't lose as many in morale tests at least).

1744 Points and keeps the main cores as intended

Let me know how it goes
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I like it except... I think you should run one or both riptides as heavy burst cannons. If you face an all primaris infantry list you'll be happy for the change. Plus I think you can squeeze in one or two more sheild drones.

Whats your plan against deepstrikers that ignore overwatch? I see you can screen your back field pretty easily with all the infantry.


Ah, the inevitable Heavy Burst Cannon question
If they weren't Amplified it wouldn't be a question; Burst all the way.

For the Primaris, yes, you would certainly be right - but equally against a Knight Army I'd sorely miss the Amplifieds.

My goal is to have a Take-All-Comers list, able to oppose any list with a fighting chance. I think the HBC over AIA opens a weakness to big fat toughies in favour of decimating infantry. The key is that the Amplifieds destroy vital targets that nothing else in my list could, whereas the Heavy Bursts more efficiently destroy the same things as my Ghostkeels/Strike Teams.
(As for the extra Drones, I'd get an extra MV4 Shield for switching 1 Amplified Ion Accelerator, or 3 for switching both. A bonus, certainly, but not enough to sway me).

I'm an advocate for the AIA - it deserved its poor reputation pre-PA, but now it is excellent - it's only outclassed by the HBC against targets someone else probably should have been shooting at.


Deepstrikers that ignore Overwatch?
I'm vaguely aware of some Genestealer Cult shenanigans but thats it-
Is this a multi-faction tactic? Is it limited to specific units/models?

I suppose the strategy is to go 'Blimey' and <FLY>/Darkstrider fallback - anything further you could provide would be greatly appreciated.
 Filename AIA vs Burst Cannon.xlsx [Disk] Download
 Description Comparison
 File size 12 Kbytes

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Things that can't be overwatched:

Night lords have been gaining popularity, using posessed bomb with psychic buffs and warp talons with the raptorial formation. The warp talons cannot be overwatched and have +2 to charge from the formation. They cause a lot of morale debuffs if they get near your units and can declare everything within 12 as a target and suffer no penalty. If they aren't in your meta then don't worry.

Less popular options include dark eldar vexator mask relic with talos/grotesque to charge in after, as well as banshee masks on craftworld characters.

I run 2 units of suppressors in my primaris army to try and negate overwatch from infantry units but they don't help vs riptides or ghostkeels. If any models are slain by accelerator autocannons, the unit can't overwatch.

Another thing to consider is positioning and ruins. Infantry can walk through the walls of ruins, including when charging, but line of sight due to solid walls can prevent overwatch. I have done this in the past with my orks vs tau. I know smash captains use this trick as well.

I like the list overall. My only concern os that units of drones with more than 6 models may die to morale without an ethereal buffing them. You can stick several 2-model drone units with your fire warriors if needed. Downside to that is more kill point potential for opponent.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




StrikerTommy wrote:
Things that can't be overwatched:

Night lords have been gaining popularity, using posessed bomb with psychic buffs and warp talons with the raptorial formation. The warp talons cannot be overwatched and have +2 to charge from the formation. They cause a lot of morale debuffs if they get near your units and can declare everything within 12 as a target and suffer no penalty. If they aren't in your meta then don't worry.

Less popular options include dark eldar vexator mask relic with talos/grotesque to charge in after, as well as banshee masks on craftworld characters.

I run 2 units of suppressors in my primaris army to try and negate overwatch from infantry units but they don't help vs riptides or ghostkeels. If any models are slain by accelerator autocannons, the unit can't overwatch.

Another thing to consider is positioning and ruins. Infantry can walk through the walls of ruins, including when charging, but line of sight due to solid walls can prevent overwatch. I have done this in the past with my orks vs tau. I know smash captains use this trick as well.

I like the list overall. My only concern os that units of drones with more than 6 models may die to morale without an ethereal buffing them. You can stick several 2-model drone units with your fire warriors if needed. Downside to that is more kill point potential for opponent.


Thanks for the insight, Ruins & Suppressors were all I knew of.
I'll look into them, and be careful if they show up against me. It sounds like clever footwork and the Shooting Phase are my only options against them.

I've thought about an Ethereal on a Hover Drone (50 pts) replacing a Shield Drone and Cadre Fireblade or Darkstrider. The question is:
"Is the Ethereal going to prevent more than 6 Drones fleeing, and contribute more than either Darkstrider or a Cadre Fireblade?"
Unfortunately, I don't think so.

Accompanying Drones is something I'm conflicted on; it single-handedly solves their Ld problem, but if the game uses Kill More then I am at a major disadvantage. As tempting as it is to split my Drones into pairs with the Cadres and Strike Teams, I'd rather lose Drones to Leadership in all matches than give up Victory Points in some.

Something I ran before Psychic Awakening was Forge World's XV9 Hazard Battlesuits - their units came in models of 1-3, but irrespective of how many you took they unit could be accompanied by up to 4 Tactical Drones. That way (with Tactical Drone Squads) I could get 24 MV4 Shield Drones, split into 6 units of 4.
I phased the idea out after the pre-release stratagem Modulated Weaponry allowed for multiple Riptides at max efficiency of shots and 3++ Invuln. (then they gave us multiple Amplified Ion Accelerators anyway).
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





The ethereal can buff the things with elemental abilities as well if it can keep up. Darkstrider is better for keeping your units out of trouble though.

Drone unit size is personal preference so it is up to you if you feel like it works after playing it.

I'm not sure if orks are big where you play but another thing to watch out for is units of lootas. With the More Dakka strategem they will hit regardless of modifiers and every initial hit will generate an extra attack. Could be dangerous for ghostkeels relying on stealth.

I found some more overwatch immunities:
Harlequins Sliken Knife stratagem and one of their relics.

Space Marines Reiver shock grenades if they hit. Also raven guard have a warlord trait and Blood Angels have a jump pack relic that grant immunity.

Necrons Solar Staff Relic on a 4+ if it hits.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




TangentTangent wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I like it except... I think you should run one or both riptides as heavy burst cannons. If you face an all primaris infantry list you'll be happy for the change. Plus I think you can squeeze in one or two more sheild drones.

Whats your plan against deepstrikers that ignore overwatch? I see you can screen your back field pretty easily with all the infantry.


Ah, the inevitable Heavy Burst Cannon question
If they weren't Amplified it wouldn't be a question; Burst all the way.

For the Primaris, yes, you would certainly be right - but equally against a Knight Army I'd sorely miss the Amplifieds.

My goal is to have a Take-All-Comers list, able to oppose any list with a fighting chance. I think the HBC over AIA opens a weakness to big fat toughies in favour of decimating infantry. The key is that the Amplifieds destroy vital targets that nothing else in my list could, whereas the Heavy Bursts more efficiently destroy the same things as my Ghostkeels/Strike Teams.
(As for the extra Drones, I'd get an extra MV4 Shield for switching 1 Amplified Ion Accelerator, or 3 for switching both. A bonus, certainly, but not enough to sway me).

I'm an advocate for the AIA - it deserved its poor reputation pre-PA, but now it is excellent - it's only outclassed by the HBC against targets someone else probably should have been shooting at.


Deepstrikers that ignore Overwatch?
I'm vaguely aware of some Genestealer Cult shenanigans but thats it-
Is this a multi-faction tactic? Is it limited to specific units/models?

I suppose the strategy is to go 'Blimey' and <FLY>/Darkstrider fallback - anything further you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

I'd like to know why you believe you can have more than 1 of the same prototype weapon in your list
I have heard the arguments both ways for multiple prototypes but not seen anyone else advocate that you can double up on a prototype weapon system.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Because they are not relics, and the rules page for prototype systems does not preclude you taking multiples in your army.
   
Made in de
Disbeliever of the Greater Good



Denmark

TangentTangent wrote:
wrynil wrote:
Kinda new but this seems super fun! Do you think this strategic can be adopted to a 1750 point game? I've got an upcoming game in a few weeks where this tactic could be fun!


I appreciate the positivity!

> I'd dump 3 Strike Teams & a Cadre Fireblade, down-grading a Battalion Detachment to a Vanguard. (4 CP lost, but 11 is plenty).
> Next I'd change both Riptide's Smart Missile Systems to Plasma Rifles and lose the Velocity Trackers. (Luxury items, really).
> Finally I'd reduce all 3 Tactical Drone Squads to 6x MV4 Shield Drones. (Won't lose as many in morale tests at least).

1744 Points and keeps the main cores as intended

Let me know how it goes


Thanks for the reply! I will try it at some point regardless of what I choose for my campaign game I have to assemble my ghostkeels which I havent done yet
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Ice_can wrote:
TangentTangent wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I like it except... I think you should run one or both riptides as heavy burst cannons. If you face an all primaris infantry list you'll be happy for the change. Plus I think you can squeeze in one or two more sheild drones.

Whats your plan against deepstrikers that ignore overwatch? I see you can screen your back field pretty easily with all the infantry.


Ah, the inevitable Heavy Burst Cannon question
If they weren't Amplified it wouldn't be a question; Burst all the way.

For the Primaris, yes, you would certainly be right - but equally against a Knight Army I'd sorely miss the Amplifieds.

My goal is to have a Take-All-Comers list, able to oppose any list with a fighting chance. I think the HBC over AIA opens a weakness to big fat toughies in favour of decimating infantry. The key is that the Amplifieds destroy vital targets that nothing else in my list could, whereas the Heavy Bursts more efficiently destroy the same things as my Ghostkeels/Strike Teams.
(As for the extra Drones, I'd get an extra MV4 Shield for switching 1 Amplified Ion Accelerator, or 3 for switching both. A bonus, certainly, but not enough to sway me).

I'm an advocate for the AIA - it deserved its poor reputation pre-PA, but now it is excellent - it's only outclassed by the HBC against targets someone else probably should have been shooting at.


Deepstrikers that ignore Overwatch?
I'm vaguely aware of some Genestealer Cult shenanigans but thats it-
Is this a multi-faction tactic? Is it limited to specific units/models?

I suppose the strategy is to go 'Blimey' and <FLY>/Darkstrider fallback - anything further you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

I'd like to know why you believe you can have more than 1 of the same prototype weapon in your list
I have heard the arguments both ways for multiple prototypes but not seen anyone else advocate that you can double up on a prototype weapon system.


No worries, I replace one Relic for one Prototype Weapons System. I repeat the process twice more as there is no limit clause. There is also no restriction about duplicates.

Ultimately though, I could be biased or straight wrong - I'm still awaiting an FAQ from Games Workshop for the final say.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




TangentTangent wrote:
Spoiler:
Ice_can wrote:
TangentTangent wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I like it except... I think you should run one or both riptides as heavy burst cannons. If you face an all primaris infantry list you'll be happy for the change. Plus I think you can squeeze in one or two more sheild drones.

Whats your plan against deepstrikers that ignore overwatch? I see you can screen your back field pretty easily with all the infantry.


Ah, the inevitable Heavy Burst Cannon question
If they weren't Amplified it wouldn't be a question; Burst all the way.

For the Primaris, yes, you would certainly be right - but equally against a Knight Army I'd sorely miss the Amplifieds.

My goal is to have a Take-All-Comers list, able to oppose any list with a fighting chance. I think the HBC over AIA opens a weakness to big fat toughies in favour of decimating infantry. The key is that the Amplifieds destroy vital targets that nothing else in my list could, whereas the Heavy Bursts more efficiently destroy the same things as my Ghostkeels/Strike Teams.
(As for the extra Drones, I'd get an extra MV4 Shield for switching 1 Amplified Ion Accelerator, or 3 for switching both. A bonus, certainly, but not enough to sway me).

I'm an advocate for the AIA - it deserved its poor reputation pre-PA, but now it is excellent - it's only outclassed by the HBC against targets someone else probably should have been shooting at.


Deepstrikers that ignore Overwatch?
I'm vaguely aware of some Genestealer Cult shenanigans but thats it-
Is this a multi-faction tactic? Is it limited to specific units/models?

I suppose the strategy is to go 'Blimey' and <FLY>/Darkstrider fallback - anything further you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

I'd like to know why you believe you can have more than 1 of the same prototype weapon in your list
I have heard the arguments both ways for multiple prototypes but not seen anyone else advocate that you can double up on a prototype weapon system.


No worries, I replace one Relic for one Prototype Weapons System. I repeat the process twice more as there is no limit clause. There is also no restriction about duplicates.

Ultimately though, I could be biased or straight wrong - I'm still awaiting an FAQ from Games Workshop for the final say.

I'm also hoping that they don't FAQ it to be 1 only as they are critical to making way too many units that have been meh jump in to the should include in a list.

I'm not sure how survivability your Ghostkeels will truely be unless you huddle them as thier drones are usually killed in short order and a -1 to hit isn't as effective at keeping them from being killed.
But huddling comes with costs against a lot of melee threats.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Spoiler:
Ice_can wrote:
TangentTangent wrote:
[spoiler]
Ice_can wrote:
TangentTangent wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I like it except... I think you should run one or both riptides as heavy burst cannons. If you face an all primaris infantry list you'll be happy for the change. Plus I think you can squeeze in one or two more sheild drones.

Whats your plan against deepstrikers that ignore overwatch? I see you can screen your back field pretty easily with all the infantry.


Ah, the inevitable Heavy Burst Cannon question
If they weren't Amplified it wouldn't be a question; Burst all the way.

For the Primaris, yes, you would certainly be right - but equally against a Knight Army I'd sorely miss the Amplifieds.

My goal is to have a Take-All-Comers list, able to oppose any list with a fighting chance. I think the HBC over AIA opens a weakness to big fat toughies in favour of decimating infantry. The key is that the Amplifieds destroy vital targets that nothing else in my list could, whereas the Heavy Bursts more efficiently destroy the same things as my Ghostkeels/Strike Teams.
(As for the extra Drones, I'd get an extra MV4 Shield for switching 1 Amplified Ion Accelerator, or 3 for switching both. A bonus, certainly, but not enough to sway me).

I'm an advocate for the AIA - it deserved its poor reputation pre-PA, but now it is excellent - it's only outclassed by the HBC against targets someone else probably should have been shooting at.


Deepstrikers that ignore Overwatch?
I'm vaguely aware of some Genestealer Cult shenanigans but thats it-
Is this a multi-faction tactic? Is it limited to specific units/models?

I suppose the strategy is to go 'Blimey' and <FLY>/Darkstrider fallback - anything further you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

I'd like to know why you believe you can have more than 1 of the same prototype weapon in your list
I have heard the arguments both ways for multiple prototypes but not seen anyone else advocate that you can double up on a prototype weapon system.


No worries, I replace one Relic for one Prototype Weapons System. I repeat the process twice more as there is no limit clause. There is also no restriction about duplicates.[/spoiler]

Ultimately though, I could be biased or straight wrong - I'm still awaiting an FAQ from Games Workshop for the final say.

I'm also hoping that they don't FAQ it to be 1 only as they are critical to making way too many units that have been meh jump in to the should include in a list.

I'm not sure how survivability your Ghostkeels will truely be unless you huddle them as thier drones are usually killed in short order and a -1 to hit isn't as effective at keeping them from being killed.
But huddling comes with costs against a lot of melee threats.


I hope we get more than one Prototype System too, but as it stands we can:
> Take Duplicate Prototype Systems
> Take more than one Prototype System on the same unit
> Take a Relic and 1 or 2 Support Systems on the same unit

Personally, the having the lot is a little excessive.

As for the Ghostkeels, they're highly durable, but not invincible. If I can't get a -3 to Hit, T6, 10W, 2+/4++/6+++ with several chances of a 2+ to redirect an attack to survive then thats on me
If their Drones are killed I can use the Neuroweb System Jammer stratagem instead (or even as well to really stifle them at a -3 to hit the Keels and -2 on the Drones).

Against melee, I have some preparation:
24x 18" S5, AP 0, D1
18x 24", S8, AP-1, Dd3
All hitting on 5's, rerolling (55% Accuracy), with For the Greater Good meaning they'd have to eat it all.

But what would you suggest?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The dones ability is worded in a way that it's only a -1 it doesn't stack for each drone so the drones are only -1 and the ghostkeel is only -2 regardless of number of drones.

It has been argued in YMDC as unfortunately RAW that's what GW wrote.

Also if someone is close enough for you to be using neroweb jammer they are probably close enough they can bypass the keels -1 to hit as it has a 6 inch range on it.

Additionally that 6+++ drone will be eating some shooting as it's-1 to hit max too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/09 11:43:10


 
   
Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper




Concord, CA

Love this list and am trying to adapt it to models I have currently, so the only thing I am missing are the Ghostkeels (for now).

Substituting the following (best I can do):

Stealth suits x 6
1xFusion Blaster
2xGun drones
Homing Beacon

3 Crisis Suits
Flamers
Drone Controller
6xGun drones


   
 
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