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So I really just wanted to create a thread to consolidate this topic, as it as been disrupting the Tactics thread. The issue is this:

- The Vigilus Drop force states "Pick a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment from your army..."

- MILITARUM TEMPESTUS DETACHMENT was not a defined term when Vigilus was released, so we got an FAQ:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

We also had the GG FAQ, with this:

Q: Are the Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines taken in addition to the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine listed in Codex: Astra Militarum, or instead of it?
A: They are taken instead of the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine in Codex: Astra Militarum. Note, if you wish to continue using your Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page 65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good.

Which seems to loosely back up the idea that you need to be Storm Trooper doctrine to use MT detachment.

So it seems a classic case of RAW, can't. RAI? Always harder to define, but probably yes? Feel free to offer both RAW and HYWPI, I just wanted to define the problem.

RAW is only Stormtroopers for now.

Right now the Specialist Detachment is only for detachments with the "Storm Troopers" doctrine.

I don't see the issue. The rules (clarified by FAQs) clearly state that to use the Drop Force detachment from Vigilus, you need to have the Storm Troopers Doctrine.

Want to use a different Regiment's Doctrine? Cool, but you don't get Drop Force on top of that. You can still use the <MT REGIMENT> specific Stratagems, WT and Relic, just not the doctrine.



Perhaps its is not intended this way - and that may well be the case - but that is currently the rules as they stand. Its probably an unintended side effect of some loosely connected rules that they hadn't spotted, but its still what it says.
I agree it would be nice if you could use the Drop Force rules with a MT Regiment Doctrine - and would probably allow an opponent to do it if they asked.

 Kcalehc wrote:
I don't see the issue. The rules (clarified by FAQs) clearly state that to use the Drop Force detachment from Vigilus, you need to have the Storm Troopers Doctrine.

Want to use a different Regiment's Doctrine? Cool, but you don't get Drop Force on top of that. You can still use the <MT REGIMENT> specific Stratagems, WT and Relic, just not the doctrine.



Perhaps its is not intended this way - and that may well be the case - but that is currently the rules as they stand. Its probably an unintended side effect of some loosely connected rules that they hadn't spotted, but its still what it says.
I agree it would be nice if you could use the Drop Force rules with a MT Regiment Doctrine - and would probably allow an opponent to do it if they asked.

It’s an odd scenario. Stormtroopers! doctrine has been a stopgap to represent Militarum Tempestus fighting style generically. The Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment is supposed to represent a common tactic used by stormtrooper regiments, unlike say, the Imperial Fists’ specialist detachment, which represents a common tactic used only by the IF. When PATGG came out, we got more specific Militarum Tempestus rules and regiments. Reasoning would let someone think these specific regiments would still use a TDF tactic, but the rules don’t allow for it currently.

It's odd but I don't think there's an argument about this. The FAQ is pretty unequivocal.

Much like some vigilus detachments require specific <astartes> or <heretic astartes> keywords the vigilus detachments require a specific <tempestus> keyword.

Unless they faq it to be otherwise, that is the current RAW

blaktoof wrote:
Much like some vigilus detachments require specific <astartes> or <heretic astartes> keywords the vigilus detachments require a specific <tempestus> keyword.

Unless they faq it to be otherwise, that is the current RAW

As of currently yes, however, as I pointed out before, this specialist detachment is supposed to be representative of a common tactic used by the Militarum Tempestus regiments all over. It is unlike, say, the Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort detachment, which is only used by the Imperial Fists. Now that we have actual regiment choices for the Militarum Tempestus, most would assume that these regiments would still make use this common tactic unless specifically stated otherwise, however, due to the Vigilus Defiant FAQ, the rules don’t allow for this.

It’s not a case of rules being locked out from a specific area to a different specific area, but a case of a tactic being locked out of going from generic to a specific area.

 Apple Peel wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Much like some vigilus detachments require specific <astartes> or <heretic astartes> keywords the vigilus detachments require a specific <tempestus> keyword.

Unless they faq it to be otherwise, that is the current RAW

As of currently yes, however, as I pointed out before, this specialist detachment is supposed to be representative of a common tactic used by the Militarum Tempestus regiments all over. It is unlike, say, the Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort detachment, which is only used by the Imperial Fists. Now that we have actual regiment choices for the Militarum Tempestus, most would assume that these regiments would still make use this common tactic unless specifically stated otherwise, however, due to the Vigilus Defiant FAQ, the rules don’t allow for this.

It’s not a case of rules being locked out from a specific area to a different specific area, but a case of a tactic being locked out of going from generic to a specific area.

Fluff =/= rules.

Banville wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Much like some vigilus detachments require specific <astartes> or <heretic astartes> keywords the vigilus detachments require a specific <tempestus> keyword.

Unless they faq it to be otherwise, that is the current RAW

As of currently yes, however, as I pointed out before, this specialist detachment is supposed to be representative of a common tactic used by the Militarum Tempestus regiments all over. It is unlike, say, the Imperial Fists Siegebreaker Cohort detachment, which is only used by the Imperial Fists. Now that we have actual regiment choices for the Militarum Tempestus, most would assume that these regiments would still make use this common tactic unless specifically stated otherwise, however, due to the Vigilus Defiant FAQ, the rules don’t allow for this.

It’s not a case of rules being locked out from a specific area to a different specific area, but a case of a tactic being locked out of going from generic to a specific area.

Fluff =/= rules.

It’s... not fluff. The original Stormtroopers doctrine and Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment were made to represent Scion play style in general. Now that we have specific regimental styles, they conflict with older rules. So, unless changed, the TDF SD doesn’t jive with the new rules, even if it would make sense for them to do so. Where did you get anything about fluff?

Your talking about stuff 'supposed to represent a common tactic.' That's fluff, really. I play MT and would be delighted to have the Vigilus Drop Force on top of everything else but it's just not to be. Whatever 'common tactic' MT are supposed to use, it obviously isn't reflected in the rules.

There isn't a conflict, if you take Storm trooper doctrine you can take the drop force. If you take other doctrines you cannot, but you get access to other things in PA.

Maybe not every regiment is actually super into being a drop force and have things they are more specialized in that represent new play styles.