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Basically, Seth has a terse conversation with Dante in which he heavily insinuates that Roboute is trying to supplant the Emperor and take control of the Imperium. Beyond this, he argued that the Primaris are simply the Primarch's way of destroying the various chapters--the flesh tearers in particular. His reasoning for this is that the red thirst is part of the Blood Angel's Gene Seed, and since the Primaris seemingly have this coding removed from theirs that they are not true Blood Angels, they are instead glorified Ultramarines...they are Blood Angels 'In name Only'. Seth sees the alteration of the Blood Angels' Gene seed as either verging on the heretical, or outright heresy, and believes that flaws in it were deliberately created by the Emperor. It's a fair point; removing the red thirst is removing a fundamental and perhaps defining feature of what makes BA what they are. Upon departing from Dante, he warns him to be 'Very, Very careful' about Guilliman.

What do we think about this?

Well Gabriel Seth is not exactly trusted or indeed sane......so yeah.

The Red Thirst is a problem not a badge of honour...

Being careful about everyone in the Imperium is however sensible.

RG is the leader they need at the moment.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Well Gabriel Seth is not exactly trusted or indeed sane......so yeah.

The Red Thirst is a problem not a badge of honour...

Being careful about everyone in the Imperium is however sensible.

RG is the leader they need at the moment.

Is the Red Thirst really a problem, or is it it something that Emperor intended by design? What is a Blood Angel without it? Part Ultramarines, part...I dunno, wolves? Whatever they are, they are no longer quite BA.

Roberts84 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Well Gabriel Seth is not exactly trusted or indeed sane......so yeah.

The Red Thirst is a problem not a badge of honour...

Being careful about everyone in the Imperium is however sensible.

RG is the leader they need at the moment.

Is the Red Thirst really a problem, or is it it something that Emperor intended by design? What is a Blood Angel without it? Part Ultramarines, part...I dunno, wolves? Whatever they are, they are no longer quite BA.

A Blood Angel is a Space Marine of the Blood Angels Chapter with all the history, heraldry etc - havin a specific flaw is just something that they have to cope with.

The Red Thirst - to quote their codex is

a destructive yearning.....ther darkest secret and greatest curse

it si aspecifically known as a Flaw and why they were a dying Chapter with unfortunates condemed to living hell in a tower.

its a bad thing.

Roberts84 wrote:
Is the Red Thirst really a problem, or is it it something that Emperor intended by design?

The great thing about being a god is that no matter how callous or incompetant you are there will always be an apologist to defend your most illogical and farcical faillures. The Emperor is no exception to this rule. It comes down to what you want your god to be. If you want him noble, wise and good, a smart person can make all sort of contorsion to match his or her expectation to the realiity.

What is a Blood Angel without it? Part Ultramarines, part...I dunno, wolves? Whatever they are, they are no longer quite BA.

What are Blood Angels without the Red Thirst? Maybe what they were always meant to be, who knows. Identities are fluid. That's what's so great about them and let's face, with the Red Thirst, the Blood Angels could be called Ultrawolves without being far from the mark.

They are also known for their asthetics, their longevity, their skills in the arts, the fact their physical form is transformed into a vision of beauty

Its not like sticking the word blood in front of everything is actually interesting......

right but the other stuff tends to be subtle, and a lotta folks can't understand sublties. it's why some people think ultramarines are boring, because they can't look past the fact that they're not "SEKRETIVE WEREWOLF VAMPIRES WHO RIDE INTO BATTLE ON SURFBOARDS PLAYING THE FIDDLE!"

.... noiw if you'll excuse me I have an entire sucessor chapter to write up!

Blood angels are a culture, not a mutation.

Gabriel Seth is a hot take at how some people just despise Ultramarines and come up with absurd fanfiction that reads terribly about stuff so convoluted that Alpha Legion make more sense.

Primaris are bad writing but they're not some way of trying to eliminate some Chapters and make Roboute the new Emperor.

Well, Primaris Blood Angels do have the Red Thirst (because Cawl decided that was part of the Emperor's intentional design and so left it in). And, as it later turned out, they suffer from the Black Rage too (which Cawl initially believed he'd 'fixed').

Also, we've had at least 2 BL novels from Guilliman's PoV that make it very clear he's not (intentionally) usurping the Emperor. He's running the Imperium because the Emperor himself flat out ordered him to do so, not because he wants to. And, yes, that's probably at least partly Guilliman convincing himself of that because he seems to not be able to admit to himself how ambitious he really is. But it still rules out any consciously nefarious purpose on his part.

Seth's angry and paranoid reaction to his chapter being saved in a way that makes him feel irrelevant is very understandable and human, but he's still completely wrong.

Roberts84 wrote:Basically, Seth has a terse conversation with Dante in which he heavily insinuates that Roboute is trying to supplant the Emperor and take control of the Imperium. Beyond this, he argued that the Primaris are simply the Primarch's way of destroying the various chapters--the flesh tearers in particular. His reasoning for this is that the red thirst is part of the Blood Angel's Gene Seed, and since the Primaris seemingly have this coding removed from theirs that they are not true Blood Angels, they are instead glorified Ultramarines...they are Blood Angels 'In name Only'. Seth sees the alteration of the Blood Angels' Gene seed as either verging on the heretical, or outright heresy, and believes that flaws in it were deliberately created by the Emperor. It's a fair point; removing the red thirst is removing a fundamental and perhaps defining feature of what makes BA what they are. Upon departing from Dante, he warns him to be 'Very, Very careful' about Guilliman.

What do we think about this?

Seth would only have a point were he right that the Primaris have none of their progenitor's genetic material. That's not true, however - Blood Angels Primaris have the same blood running through them as they do any other Son of Sanguinius.

Every Blood Angel, Primaris or not, has Sanguinius' geneseed, and it's even implied that Primaris Marines actually *can* fall to the Thirst and Rage (one of which is certainly NOT intentional, having been derived from Sanguinius' own death), something that Astorath notes when he literally tell a squad of Primaris Marines who are feeling all isolated about being different that they still share the same blood.

More importantly, does Seth not call the Lamenters brethren now, seeing as they tried (and temporarily succeeded) in curing the Thirst? It's not like the Thirst and Rage are the only things that make a Blood Angel a Blood Angel - a shared culture, a shared identity, a shared set of values and tactics - all things that define them far better than their genetic diseases.

And again, it's worth remembering that there are technically three types of Primaris, not just the one batch that Guilliman had in stasis. There could well be Primaris Marines in the Blood Angels who either crossed the Rubicon (hi Mephiston - I guess Seth doesn't count him as a Blood Angel now!) or Primaris Marines who have only known life in the Blood Angels as new recruits. Seth being all "but Primaris aren't true Blood Angels" is reductive of their own history, and also ignorant of how most Primaris by now are completely inducted into the Chapter from birth.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Gabriel Seth is a hot take at how some people just despise Ultramarines and come up with absurd fanfiction that reads terribly about stuff so convoluted that Alpha Legion make more sense.

Seth definitely does read as an audience proxy, that much seems true, IMO.

Duskweaver wrote:Seth's angry and paranoid reaction to his chapter being saved in a way that makes him feel irrelevant is very understandable and human, but he's still completely wrong.

Yeah, Seth is definitely understandable, but he's simply not being correct.

honestly sometimes I think every post GS novel consists of the writers reading the complaints the anti-primaris crowd have and being all.. "ohh yeah?"

I mean case in point in the latest Watchers of the throne novel

Why oh why would you try that? There's no way that can work out well for the HLoT in anything but the very short term...

I mean, I would have done the same if I were in one them.
I would probably avoid primaris, Guilliman and his authority the best I could if I were a chapter master too.
But as a gamer we know he is truly good, even if it may look suspicious in universe

I don't think I'd try and backstab the literal demigod who's doing good work and can quite literally tear me limb from limb.

pm713 wrote:
Why oh why would you try that? There's no way that can work out well for the HLoT in anything but the very short term...

apparently right now there are/where two factions among the highlords, the "reformers" who basicly support Gulliman, and the "Statics" who opposed any changes to the status que. the Statics seemed to think that if they could remove the reformers and impose their desires on the council while Gulliman was away he'd be forced to accept the status quo asnd effectively ceed control to them while acting as their military leader.

and yeaaaah they REALLY didn't think that one through

pm713 wrote:
I don't think I'd try and backstab the literal demigod who's doing good work and can quite literally tear me limb from limb.

You mean, the guy who got resurrected by xenos, who is notably close to the tech heretic Cawl ? Who fights against the Holy Inquisition ?
I would like to remind people that a guy already proclaimed to be Sanguinius and even if he had followers (or maybe because he has followers), was killed by the high lords. I don't remember him having done any of those crimes.
I'm not surprised, in universe, where they don't know for sure, unlike us, that he is a good guy, that they would try to at least control him

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why oh why would you try that? There's no way that can work out well for the HLoT in anything but the very short term...

apparently right now there are/where two factions among the highlords, the "reformers" who basicly support Gulliman, and the "Statics" who opposed any changes to the status que. the Statics seemed to think that if they could remove the reformers and impose their desires on the council while Gulliman was away he'd be forced to accept the status quo asnd effectively ceed control to them while acting as their military leader.

and yeaaaah they REALLY didn't think that one through

I honestly wouldn't worry about Guilliman at first. I'd worry about the Custodes noticing the attempt to usurp the Emperors chosen ruler and them putting me in a cupboard nobody has seen for three thousand years and won't see for another three thousand.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why oh why would you try that? There's no way that can work out well for the HLoT in anything but the very short term...

apparently right now there are/where two factions among the highlords, the "reformers" who basicly support Gulliman, and the "Statics" who opposed any changes to the status que. the Statics seemed to think that if they could remove the reformers and impose their desires on the council while Gulliman was away he'd be forced to accept the status quo asnd effectively ceed control to them while acting as their military leader.

and yeaaaah they REALLY didn't think that one through

I honestly wouldn't worry about Guilliman at first. I'd worry about the Custodes noticing the attempt to usurp the Emperors chosen ruler and them putting me in a cupboard nobody has seen for three thousand years and won't see for another three thousand.

heh

well keep in mind the custodes being neutral in all political disputes is seen as vital. so even in a situation like that they'd not able to get involved. or at least be seen involved.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why oh why would you try that? There's no way that can work out well for the HLoT in anything but the very short term...

apparently right now there are/where two factions among the highlords, the "reformers" who basicly support Gulliman, and the "Statics" who opposed any changes to the status que. the Statics seemed to think that if they could remove the reformers and impose their desires on the council while Gulliman was away he'd be forced to accept the status quo asnd effectively ceed control to them while acting as their military leader.

and yeaaaah they REALLY didn't think that one through

I honestly wouldn't worry about Guilliman at first. I'd worry about the Custodes noticing the attempt to usurp the Emperors chosen ruler and them putting me in a cupboard nobody has seen for three thousand years and won't see for another three thousand.

heh

well keep in mind the custodes being neutral in all political disputes is seen as vital. so even in a situation like that they'd not able to get involved. or at least be seen involved.

Spoiler:

of course this just means custodes captain-generals need to be fething chess masters as the novel showed us

The Palace is a big place. Sometimes people get lost, why just last week that rogue Inquisitor took a wrong turn and fell on a spear five times. Tragic, that.

pm713 wrote:

The Palace is a big place. Sometimes people get lost, why just last week that rogue Inquisitor took a wrong turn and fell on a spear five times. Tragic, that.

"Yes... tragic."

"Look, we've basically done nothing but brood for 10,000 years. The armory was a little messy, the boys were out of practice, things got out of hand. Complete accident, we swear."

godardc wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't think I'd try and backstab the literal demigod who's doing good work and can quite literally tear me limb from limb.

You mean, the guy who got resurrected by xenos, who is notably close to the tech heretic Cawl ? Who fights against the Holy Inquisition ?
I would like to remind people that a guy already proclaimed to be Sanguinius and even if he had followers (or maybe because he has followers), was killed by the high lords. I don't remember him having done any of those crimes.
I'm not surprised, in universe, where they don't know for sure, unlike us, that he is a good guy, that they would try to at least control him

Bringing up the "in universe" part, do they HLOT know about the Eldar's part in resurrecting Guilliman? If not, then as far as they know, it was all Cawl, who hasn't done anything that can be proven as heretical, at least in the eyes of the Mechanicus. And, the Inquisition are still deferential to the Custodes, who proclaim Guilliman to be above them.

Guilliman has more than enough people in all the right places supporting his claim that there isn't anything to feasibly be done to oust him from that position. That's not to say everyone likes it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

godardc wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't think I'd try and backstab the literal demigod who's doing good work and can quite literally tear me limb from limb.

You mean, the guy who got resurrected by xenos, who is notably close to the tech heretic Cawl ? Who fights against the Holy Inquisition ?
I would like to remind people that a guy already proclaimed to be Sanguinius and even if he had followers (or maybe because he has followers), was killed by the high lords. I don't remember him having done any of those crimes.
I'm not surprised, in universe, where they don't know for sure, unlike us, that he is a good guy, that they would try to at least control him

Bringing up the "in universe" part, do they HLOT know about the Eldar's part in resurrecting Guilliman? If not, then as far as they know, it was all Cawl, who hasn't done anything that can be proven as heretical, at least in the eyes of the Mechanicus. And, the Inquisition are still deferential to the Custodes, who proclaim Guilliman to be above them.

Guilliman has more than enough people in all the right places supporting his claim that there isn't anything to feasibly be done to oust him from that position. That's not to say everyone likes it.

Exactly plus the full power of the Church is currently behind him - he was endorsed by a Living Saint afterall - being paraded through the streets of Tera with her.

Doubting him publicly is risky.

 Duskweaver wrote:

Also, we've had at least 2 BL novels from Guilliman's PoV that make it very clear he's not (intentionally) usurping the Emperor. He's running the Imperium because the Emperor himself flat out ordered him to do so, not because he wants to. And, yes, that's probably at least partly Guilliman convincing himself of that because he seems to not be able to admit to himself how ambitious he really is. But it still rules out any consciously nefarious purpose on his part.

See, everyone keeps bringing this up. But I've read both of those novels. The only evidence this took place as it was claimed (AFAIK, Honest question- has it been referred to anywhere else and has other perspectives of it?) is from Gulliman. There is no 3rd person flashback scene of him talking with The Emperor, only Gulliman's recollection. Now; I'm not calling him a liar, but that is a big red flag right there. You only have his word to go on. No one else's. That smacks of unreliable narrator syndrome to me.

I'm loathe to bring real world religion etc. into this, but it does strike me as being a satirical bent (as 40k is wont to do) on individuals like Joseph Smith, particularly how South Park portrayed him. Just like with Gulliman, we have no one other than a singular person who has convened with God (or, The Emperor) who has told him to go forth and do this for Him ("Honest guv, It's what he said to do!" Dumdumdum Dumdum!). Now, GW might be playing the long game here as, even though I don't want more to come back this situation right here is what requires another Primarch. Someone to call him out on this, someone on the same level as him, as particularly by the end of Plague War he has a bit of a tyrannical streak about him, we just need Russ to give him a good look like below to bring him down a couple of pegs.

"Daddy told me to do this!" "Did he really though? Did he?"

 Duskweaver wrote:
Well, Primaris Blood Angels do have the Red Thirst (because Cawl decided that was part of the Emperor's intentional design and so left it in). And, as it later turned out, they suffer from the Black Rage too (which Cawl initially believed he'd 'fixed').

Also, we've had at least 2 BL novels from Guilliman's PoV that make it very clear he's not (intentionally) usurping the Emperor. He's running the Imperium because the Emperor himself flat out ordered him to do so, not because he wants to. And, yes, that's probably at least partly Guilliman convincing himself of that because he seems to not be able to admit to himself how ambitious he really is. But it still rules out any consciously nefarious purpose on his part.

Seth's angry and paranoid reaction to his chapter being saved in a way that makes him feel irrelevant is very understandable and human, but he's still completely wrong.

I really like Seth's response. When writing a setting it is easy to forget that reasonably no few NPCs should have responses that are on some level unreasonable.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
Well, Primaris Blood Angels do have the Red Thirst (because Cawl decided that was part of the Emperor's intentional design and so left it in). And, as it later turned out, they suffer from the Black Rage too (which Cawl initially believed he'd 'fixed').

Also, we've had at least 2 BL novels from Guilliman's PoV that make it very clear he's not (intentionally) usurping the Emperor. He's running the Imperium because the Emperor himself flat out ordered him to do so, not because he wants to. And, yes, that's probably at least partly Guilliman convincing himself of that because he seems to not be able to admit to himself how ambitious he really is. But it still rules out any consciously nefarious purpose on his part.

Seth's angry and paranoid reaction to his chapter being saved in a way that makes him feel irrelevant is very understandable and human, but he's still completely wrong.

I really like Seth's response. When writing a setting it is easy to forget that reasonably no few NPCs should have responses that are on some level unreasonable.

Grimtuff wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:

Also, we've had at least 2 BL novels from Guilliman's PoV that make it very clear he's not (intentionally) usurping the Emperor. He's running the Imperium because the Emperor himself flat out ordered him to do so, not because he wants to. And, yes, that's probably at least partly Guilliman convincing himself of that because he seems to not be able to admit to himself how ambitious he really is. But it still rules out any consciously nefarious purpose on his part.

See, everyone keeps bringing this up. But I've read both of those novels. The only evidence this took place as it was claimed (AFAIK, Honest question- has it been referred to anywhere else and has other perspectives of it?) is from Gulliman.

From Guilliman, talking in his own head, with no-one but the audience hearing.

What reason has he to fabricate stuff in his own head? So, he's certainly not a liar.

There is no 3rd person flashback scene of him talking with The Emperor, only Gulliman's recollection. Now; I'm not calling him a liar, but that is a big red flag right there. You only have his word to go on. No one else's. That smacks of unreliable narrator syndrome to me.

So, any 3rd person omniscient conversation or event that occurs we shouldn't be able to trust? So, literally any personal thoughts of a character, any time they remember a conversation?

I'm not sure I agree with that kind of logic. Obviously, there's room for misremembering, or missing things, or the character not knowing everything that was happening in that event. But wholly fabricating the Emperor himself talking to you (an otherwise completely sane, hyper-rational, mentally acute demi-god) to the point where he's dropping truth bombshells that completely change the family dynamic you had with him? I don't buy it. If we're talking an event that happened millennia ago, or something that Guilliman remembered before going on ice, sure, I could perhaps see it. But a conversation still immediately fresh in his mind?

I'm loathe to bring real world religion etc. into this, but it does strike me as being a satirical bent (as 40k is wont to do) on individuals like Joseph Smith, particularly how South Park portrayed him. Just like with Gulliman, we have no one other than a singular person who has convened with God (or, The Emperor) who has told him to go forth and do this for Him ("Honest guv, It's what he said to do!" Dumdumdum Dumdum!).

Except we can't prove that IRL individuals genuinely ARE hearing gods, or faking it, or delusional. And, considering all things, IRL, it's unlikely that a god did speak to these people (obviously, that could be contentious).

Whereas in the fictional world, we KNOW Guilliman isn't lying. We have good reason to believe that the Emperor could psychically communicate (if anyone can, it's him), and Guilliman is hardly an insane or otherwise mentally afflicted individual. Therefore, is it not logical to assume he's telling the truth to his own mind?

NinthMusketeer wrote:I really like Seth's response. When writing a setting it is easy to forget that reasonably no few NPCs should have responses that are on some level unreasonable.

Yeah, I like Seth *making* the response, I don't agree with what he's saying, but it makes sense that some people would be illogical about it.

 Grimtuff wrote:
That smacks of unreliable narrator syndrome to me.

Well, I did include the words "intentionally" and "consciously nefarious" for a reason. Sure it's possible that RG's conversation with the Emperor was all just a psychotic delusion. Or that he only 'heard' what he wanted or expected to 'hear' from the Emperor (who, after all, has form with this sort of thing). But all the evidence we have is that RG believes it happened as described.

I'm also not convinced Guy Haley, for all that I enjoy his work, is actually capable of the level of long-game subtlety necessary to be setting us up for a reveal that RG is really just a power-hungry tyrant. I just think it's a bit of a stretch.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
That smacks of unreliable narrator syndrome to me.

Well, I did include the words "intentionally" and "consciously nefarious" for a reason. Sure it's possible that RG's conversation with the Emperor was all just a psychotic delusion. Or that he only 'heard' what he wanted or expected to 'hear' from the Emperor (who, after all, has form with this sort of thing). But all the evidence we have is that RG believes it happened as described.

I'm also not convinced Guy Haley, for all that I enjoy his work, is actually capable of the level of long-game subtlety necessary to be setting us up for a reveal that RG is really just a power-hungry tyrant. I just think it's a bit of a stretch.

Sadly I think the ship of Roboute being a tyrant in the making has set sail. Shame, I liked the idea of him being a tyrant in the making.