Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Greetings everyone,

So when I first saw the Primaris Reviers and read their entry my first thought was rather silly: "Wait, do they get both the knife and pistol loadout AND the carbine at the same time?"

Of course, my opponent laughed at me and said of course not. The Reivers then proceeded to die horribly without doing much. After that I read that, in fact, they have a habit of being killed horribly after not doing much. This is unfortunate to me because they look cool (so they should be good right? RIGHT?)

Anyway, my proposed change is pretty simple: what if regardless of how you modeled them they had both the knife and pistol AND the carbine? It wouldn't add THAT much Dakka to them, but it would make them both range support and melee commandos, which is I think the idea behind them in the first place. Maybe put on a tiny point tax (2pts a model?) to help with balance.

What do you think?

I wouldn't mind it, but I'm not sure how much it helps them either. On paper, reivers seem like they're suffering from competition with units that do a similar job better. Their basic gimmick is "deepstriking melee unit." So that means they have to compete with:

*Assault marines - more gun options
* Vanguard vets - more melee weapon options
* BA units like Death Company and Sang Guard
* SW Sky Claws
* Terminators
* Most of the GK codex if you consider Gate of Infinity.

And then you've got to consider that some chapters have stratagem support for jump pack and terminator units that reivers miss out on. Compared to all that, reivers are kind of a middle-of-the pack choice.

So while letting reivers have a better gun wouldn't break the game, I'm not sure it helps them stand out against options that are cheaper or more killy than they are. To want to take reivers, you have to want a deepstriking close combat unit that isn't as cheap as bare bones vanguard vets or assault marines but also isn't as killy as a kitted out deepstriking melee option.

Maybe they need a stratagem or two to give them more of a niche? Some sort of Calidus-light command ability or CP disruption rule?

leerm02 wrote:

Greetings everyone,

So when I first saw the Primaris Reviers and read their entry my first thought was rather silly: "Wait, do they get both the knife and pistol loadout AND the carbine at the same time?"

Of course, my opponent laughed at me and said of course not. The Reivers then proceeded to die horribly without doing much. After that I read that, in fact, they have a habit of being killed horribly after not doing much. This is unfortunate to me because they look cool (so they should be good right? RIGHT?)

Anyway, my proposed change is pretty simple: what if regardless of how you modeled them they had both the knife and pistol AND the carbine? It wouldn't add THAT much Dakka to them, but it would make them both range support and melee commandos, which is I think the idea behind them in the first place. Maybe put on a tiny point tax (2pts a model?) to help with balance.

What do you think?

Everything comes down to pts, foot-slogging carbines have 33% firepower than Intercessors with auto bolt rifles and cost 11% less, but they have the same melee, it's a mostly fair trade. Problem is it doesn't account for one being Elites and the other being Troops. Giving them an extra attack could make up for being Elites, but by also paying two more pts you're making them even worse than they are initially.

Deep-striking melee Reivers is mostly on-par with Assault Squads, they are more durable, don't have weapon options, this is a bad thing, Assault Squads and Reivers are both useless as far as I see. Having a carbine changes almost nothing for DS melee Reivers given they're dropping into range with their pistols and -1 AP is the same as double the shots against 3+ Sv, so against 4+ and worse you're getting more damage and you're getting more options in terms of targets. Giving them a carbine is almost power neutral, if you pay 2 more pts you're making them massively worse.

If you want guys that have less shooting than Intercessors but more melee and cost the same and you don't care about how good the value is for the unit given that it is Elites instead of Troops, ask your opponent if you can pay 2 more pts to have both options, but you're making them worse.

I think Reivers and Assault Squads should be 2 pts cheaper to make up for the fact that they're not Troops so if you take a Smash Captain and 3x5 carbine Reivers you're massively cheaper than 3x5 auto rifle Intercessors + 2 HQs or you can take them with DS at their current base price given that with the CP a Troops choice generates you can make that Troops choice DS so because carbines did not get a buff like the auto rifle and heavy rifle got they deserve to be even cheaper. 50 pt Assault Squads in Rhinos, Drop Pods or running across the field doesn't even sound viable.

Giving them a 1CP Strat that generates D3 CP when you destroy a unit in melee might make them worthwhile.

Easiest fix is to change their LD mod from a 3" aura to a static ability.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Easiest fix is to change their LD mod from a 3" aura to a static ability.

Static ability like what?

Figured it didn't need explaining that "static ability" equates to them simply causing the LD mod when they interact with a unit.

As in:
Carbines go PEW PEW PEW! Causes casualties, boom LD mod.
Combat goes off, causes casualties...boom LD mod!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Figured it didn't need explaining that "static ability" equates to them simply causing the LD mod when they interact with a unit.

As in:
Carbines go PEW PEW PEW! Causes casualties, boom LD mod.
Combat goes off, causes casualties...boom LD mod!

So the primaris rip off of terror squads gets a better version of my legion's crappy trait? Feth that.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Figured it didn't need explaining that "static ability" equates to them simply causing the LD mod when they interact with a unit.

As in:
Carbines go PEW PEW PEW! Causes casualties, boom LD mod.
Combat goes off, causes casualties...boom LD mod!

So the primaris rip off of terror squads gets a better version of my legion's crappy trait? Feth that.

Yes, the "Primaris rip off of terror squads"(which were Curze's ripoffs of the Raven Guard's Mor Deythan and Moritat to begin with!) get a version of your Legion's unupdated "crappy" trait.

Just like how the Alpha Legion got to retain their flat -1 to getting hit at 12" or further while Raven Guard, actual stealth masters, now have to stand in fricking terrain to get the same effect.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Figured it didn't need explaining that "static ability" equates to them simply causing the LD mod when they interact with a unit.

As in:
Carbines go PEW PEW PEW! Causes casualties, boom LD mod.
Combat goes off, causes casualties...boom LD mod!

So the primaris rip off of terror squads gets a better version of my legion's crappy trait? Feth that.

Yes, the "Primaris rip off of terror squads"(which were Curze's ripoffs of the Raven Guard's Mor Deythan and Moritat to begin with!) get a version of your Legion's unupdated "crappy" trait.

Just like how the Alpha Legion got to retain their flat -1 to getting hit at 12" or further while Raven Guard, actual stealth masters, now have to stand in fricking terrain to get the same effect.

Al should have the same limitation as rg. And "stealth adept" was also originally Night Lords exclusive veteran ability btw.

Yeah, and originally Raven Guard were masters of ambush and stealth which for some stupid reason got blanded down to "tHeY uSe JuMp PaCkS!!!1!".

Just because Night Lords are hurting doesn't mean that you shouldn't want for Reivers to finally have a frigging niche that works for them.

Yes, but in typical gw loyalist marine fashion it's by stealing niches from other factions.

And mor deythan are infiltrating snipers. Terror squads are anti infantry terror specialists. Rievers are a direct rip off. Right down to the skull faced helms.

And Raven Guard are still ambush specialists, or can they not sneak any infantry unit besides centurions up to enemy lines anymore?

Mor Deythan being "infiltrating snipers" is what the FW team did to them, not what they were fluffed as.

And again:
So what if Reivers are "a direct ripoff"? Guilliman did that to everyone during the Great Crusade and the Heresy. Why should Night Lords have been immune to it?

Because Night Lords don't get rules for our legion specific units. None of the legions do, except World Eaters. It's a stupid argument anyway. I don't see gw giving rievers new rules. Have fun wishlisting.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Because Night Lords don't get rules for our legion specific units. None of the legions do, except World Eaters.

Welcome to literally any Loyalist that's in the codex and isn't either Ultramarines or Black Templars? And you forgot Emperor's Children, by the by.

It's a stupid argument anyway. I don't see gw giving rievers new rules. Have fun wishlisting.

Yes, that's what this thread is.