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I have rotated back to my first army now that I upgraded to the new models. Also, before the mandatory social distancing break, everyone in my gaming group was also running a kind of Chaos legion army. So it was kinda fun to have Chaos Space Marine versus Chaos Space Marine even if the Thousand Sons players seem to be doing the best. After my first game, I found I didn't remember nearly as much about CSM as I thought I did. The last time I played them outside of Kill Team was before Kill Team came out. So I am looking for a nice easy to play/remember TAC style army.

What I have so far:

Battalion 1
HQ: Chaos Lord (Warlord) with Plasma Pistol and Power Sword (Murder Sword), Exalted Champion with Combi-Bolter and Power Axe
Troop: CSM x5 with Chainswords, Plasma gun, Champ with Power Axe, CSM x5 with Chainswords, Plasma gun, Champ with Power Fist, CSM x5 with Bolters, Missile Launcher
Heavy Support: Havocs with 2 Las Cannons, 2 Missile Launchers, Plasmagun
Dedicated Transport: Rhino


Battalion 2
HQ: Sorcerer (the Finecast one) with Prescience and Diabolic Strength, Dark Apostle (the Finecast one) with Souleater Portent
Troop: CSM x5 with Bolters, Missile Launcher, CSM x5 with Bolters, Las Cannon, CSM x5 with Bolters, Las Cannon
Heavy Support: Havocs with 3 Reaper Chainguns, Heavy Bolter, Plasmagun
Dedicated Transport: Rhino

A little over 1250 points

I am spending a CP on Concil of Traitors. The Chaos Lord has Indomitable, Dark Apostle has Trusted War-Leader and Sorcerer has Warp Lord. I am not that tied to any of those traits though. I am also thinking of spending another CP to give my Exalted Champion a relic but not sure between Angel's Bane to replace the combi-bolter or Ul'o'cca the Black Axe.

So I have about 750 points to complete the army. Now I am thinking of adding a couple of Las Predators and maybe a Nocilith Crown. At the same time, I kinda want some Chaos Terminators. I don't have any with chain axes. Most of mine are Power axe or Power Fist, and I have a higher than normal amount of combi-meltas left over from older edition termicide squads. I also have a Chaos Land Raider that is probably more survivable in my meta than most so not as bad of an idea it sounds. What I am not wanting to include is Abbadon just yet. He will probably be added at some point, but I don't like including special characters standard in my army lists. I am fine addition cultists as they did quite well in my last game but only in addition to my marines not as a replacement to.

Just the same, I was wanting some input what everyone thinks my last 750 points should be used on.

I think Las Predators would be a good bet. I'd also recommend that you switch your Havocs to something like x4 Reaper Chainguns and x1 Plasma.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of two Las Predators. Given an early opportunity they can really beat up enemy armor and even focused on, I still have my heavy weapon in my CSM squads.

As for the Reaper Chainguns, I would agree with you except I only have 3 models armed with them. At the same time, I had a heck of time keeping what I had alive. I probably spent more CP than I should have fixing bad Save rolls on them. Part of me wonders if maybe two squads with chainguns x2, heavy bolters x2 might get them over looked just a little bit more as Havocs just seem to be too high profile a target. And chainguns x2 and heavy bolters x2 is about as good as I am ever going to get as I really only want to ever buy one more box Havocs and not super interested in converting/kitbashing nor putting too many eggs in the chaingun basket as I am sure the nerf sword of Damocles will happen sooner or later.

Overall, my Black Legion collection feels kinda weird to me now. Since I started playing 40k I always had weak anti-armor weapons. Now I feel like I can easily add too many in the last month of upgrading models. My Las Cannon and Missile Launcher Havocs aren't as necessarily this year as they were last year for me when I only had heavy bolter and plasma CSM options.

Lord discordant and daemon prince are both great. I personally think you've got too many chainsword carrying marines and too many marines in general. If you really want to run the two battalions then maybe put a couple of msu cultists in.
I'm not keen on missile launchers and plasma on your havoc champ is a waste. Give him a bolter and use him as an ablative wound.
Angelsbane is great on a terminator or bike lord as you are always getting four shots.
Maybe look at some of the specialist detachments in vigilus and build around that? You have a lot of cp so might as well!!

i don't see a point in a noctilith, you have no units that really enefit from it.

(if you'd said you fielded a bunch of cultists then yes go for it, or a bunch of tanks , yes go for it. but overall marines rarely get worse SV then 5+)

Not Online!!! wrote:
i don't see a point in a noctilith, you have no units that really enefit from it.

(if you'd said you fielded a bunch of cultists then yes go for it, or a bunch of tanks , yes go for it. but overall marines rarely get worse SV then 5+)

If I field the Nocilith Crown I was going put a couple of las Predators and the Sorcerer by it at a minimum. I figure that would make it worthwhile. The marines are to cover the rest of the table. I figure two Predators are a significant enough investment to warrant the Crown. Any less and you are probably right. I would probably be better off fielding two minimum man squads of Cultists.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i don't see a point in a noctilith, you have no units that really enefit from it.

(if you'd said you fielded a bunch of cultists then yes go for it, or a bunch of tanks , yes go for it. but overall marines rarely get worse SV then 5+)

If I field the Nocilith Crown I was going put a couple of las Predators and the Sorcerer by it at a minimum. I figure that would make it worthwhile. The marines are to cover the rest of the table. I figure two Predators are a significant enough investment to warrant the Crown. Any less and you are probably right. I would probably be better off fielding two minimum man squads of Cultists.

Frankly, i am still off the opinion you'd be better off with a DA with the ilusion prayer for that.

Had you said you'd wanted to field a frontline of R&H fodder then yes, the noctilith is worth it's points in gold really fast.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i don't see a point in a noctilith, you have no units that really enefit from it.

(if you'd said you fielded a bunch of cultists then yes go for it, or a bunch of tanks , yes go for it. but overall marines rarely get worse SV then 5+)

If I field the Nocilith Crown I was going put a couple of las Predators and the Sorcerer by it at a minimum. I figure that would make it worthwhile. The marines are to cover the rest of the table. I figure two Predators are a significant enough investment to warrant the Crown. Any less and you are probably right. I would probably be better off fielding two minimum man squads of Cultists.

Frankly, i am still off the opinion you'd be better off with a DA with the ilusion prayer for that.

Had you said you'd wanted to field a frontline of R&H fodder then yes, the noctilith is worth it's points in gold really fast.

No problem. I already have the Dark Apostle included because of Council of Traitors. I think I will go with a couple of las Predators and a couple of squads of Chaos Terminators to finish the army.

I think you'll be disappointed with Predators and Land Raiders. Chainswords are a waste, you would be better off with boltguns on at least one of those squads. I don't get what you want to put Diabolic Strength on. You have decent weight of fire, but if you decide to get a bunch more lascannons invulnerable saves are going to start becoming a problem, having no great units to put Diabolic Strength on I think you'd be better off with Death Hex, it's quite hard to cast but I think with the way your army looks it's going to be Smite/Prescience most of the time anyway.

Putting Death Hex on a character is more worthwhile than Diabolic Strength on one of the dudes attacking him most likely, in 2000 pts you might also have more powerfists or something that need to punch through invulns. I know the murder sword does mortals on the chosen target, but then you're only getting the benefit of 1 extra attack since the Strength is irrelevant. If you do want to stick with Diabolic Strength you'd probably have a killier dude with Q’o’ak, the Boundless (power sword Daemon weapon), 6 S7 AP-4 1D hits/mortal wounds vs 9 S6 AP-3 d3D hits. It'll cost you a CP once in a while but you've got plenty and the D3 damage will make him far more effective against Intercessors, Cents, Aggressors and any characters you haven't marked for death.

Assuming you are using the same models for Havocs and heavy weapons in your squads I think you should put all your lascannons into your Havocs in case you want to double-tap your anti-vehicle firepower. Replacing that last heavy bolter with another chaingun is probably also a good idea. I don't like Soultearer Portent in your list, I'm not seeing the ideal target, putting Benediction of Darkness on a Rhino has some good synergy with the Smoke Launchers ability and would be an absolute necessity if you want to keep a Land Raider alive for any length of time. Combine with Miasma of Pestilence or Delightful Agonies on your Sorcerer instead of Diabolic Strength and you can make a unit truly hard to kill.

You need more Cultists and/or psykers to get value out of a Noctilith Crown. Given that you are running 2 Rhinos already and are considering more vehicles it might be smarter to run Rhino Berzerkers instead of Terminators since they hit twice as hard and will let you have a more uniform defensive profile, Terminators will stick out like a sore thumb being the only 2W 2+/5+ unit in your army. Terminators are quite cheap and quite durable for their price if you go ultra-low to the ground with combi-bolters and chainaxes, but I don't think you can make the most of them with your army.