Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
First off: would you like to build a maximal competetive build or just "something that works"? And do you already have a prefered regiment?
I would claim that you can not really go wrong with Leman Russ tanks, especially if you magnetize their weapon options, which is quite easy. They are cheap and offer quite a lot of fire- and staying power.
Similarly Hellhounds are mostly a safe bet, as they are relatively cheap and quite effective not only against infantry but also against stuff with negative to hit modifiers.
Basilisks and/or Manticors offer very good long range out-of-Line of sight fire power.
I'm under the impression that these three vehicles can be quite a good core of any army. But they need some infantry to keep them from getting trapped in close combat where they cannot fire.
Besides that: with the new stratagems from the "Greater good" book, there is some argument to be made for Sentinels, as they got one giving them +2 to hit in the first turn on all their weapons, which is quite nice if you kit them out with plasma cannons and hunter killer missiles. It may not be tournament competetive, but it makes Sentinels a lot more interesting.
I would like a list that can hold it's own, but not necessarily only tournament focused.
Im not gonna pretend I can kit bash so I will be running them as Cadians. I also do enjoy infantry but would like a balance, not a conscript mob.I also would like to know what characters would I want to field.
I'm gonna be playing a lot against two of my friends. One has nids and one has necrons, is their any strategy to be held against these armies? I also have some Imperial fists and was thinking of allying them but that's besides the point.
Finally, I don't want to have super heavies quite yet.
Regarding characters and focussing on your question what a good base is:
a couple of company commanders are highly advisable, they can give orders and are again pretty cheap. As you will likely find yourself in CC against Nids I would also recommend a priest, as he douples the melee output of your guys. Don't expect them to dominate in CC, but they might at least kill an odd model now and then. Commissars can be useful, but as their summary execution rule was nerfed, they are not really a must have.
I would also recommend an Ogryn bodyguard or two. They can tank wounds for nearby characters and what's best, they can do it for multiple characters. So you can put for example one Bodyguard in range of two of your company commanders, your priest and a commissar and he can potentially protect all four, depending on who gets targeted.
If you want to use a couple of Artillery pieces, the Master of ordnance is highly recommended, as he brings a nice bonus for cheap. Regarding psykers: Astropaths are a steal currently and if you still need HQ units, Primaris Psykers are also well worth their points.
Note that "cheap" refers to the points, not real world money.
If you want to use transports my impression is, that the Valkyrie is quite a good option. It is quite sturdy, fast and can cross over enemies were Chimeras and Tauroxes would get stuck. But I personally (that's an opinion, not a fact) would claim that you don't need them as a core, unless you have a specific plan for them.
Regarding your matchups I lack practical experience, but I'm sure some good tips will come along. Welcome to the guard son! Let's show these pesky marines how real men fight
My perspective? I don't disagree with anything that anyone above has said but my own focus of gaurd has always been air mobile (elysians and scions and cadians in a mix). With the recent price drops, scions are pretty solid and they have some recent rule additions in greater good / psychic awakening that make them shine. I also like them because you don't drown the board in gaurd bodies and end up rolling hundreds of lasguns to kill 1 marine.
TWO scions starter boxes give you 20 scion bodies, 2 commisar bodies, and 2 taurox prime tank/transports. I recommend the following...
1 tempest prime (I would build him with a command rod in one hand and a powerfist on the other). He can be given the relic "deathmask of oleanus" to become an actual melee threat!
1 lord commisar with bolt pistol (you can grant him the relic "emperor's benediction" to fire several sniper pistol shots, and do extra damage.
1 lord commisar with plasma pistol (you can make him your first warlord, with the voice of command trick to allow him to order scions)
command elements 122 in game points
19 scion bodies remain to build out
3 x 5 man squads (this gives you a battalion)
1 x 4 man command squad (this gives you a real heavy hitter deepstrike unit or air drop unit)
105+36 points (no wargear yet) = 141
For wargear, although not the most competitive option ever, I suggest giving out powerswords to the some of the sgts.
squad A : 2 plasma gun and 1 plasma pistol and powersword
squad B : 2 plasma gun and 1 plasma pistol and powersword (these two are short to mid range work squads that you bring up in transports or drop from deepstrike or a valkyrie right on the enemy's face.)
squad C : 2 hotshotvolleyguns and 1 bolt pistol and chainsword on the sgt. This squad you will usually drop a bit further away to engage hordes, or out of a taurox or valkyrie. Its optimized for shooting longer range and the chainsword is cheap.
Command squad omega : 4 meltaguns. Drop it in, deepstrike it in, get it CLOSE, and wreck someone's face. In truly competitive play armies, they would probably be all plasma guns, but your mix here lets you fight most any foe fairly well, especially when dropped from the valkyrie at 5.5 inches distance with precision drop (1 cp strat)
Loaded as I described, your points go up to total of 396
Don't forget two taurox primes (or base taurox). For your all scoin battalion, you will want probably taurox primes as a pair. I believe they run around 126 each loaded out fully (2 autocannon or 2 hotshotvolleyguns, 1 gatling gun (if you want to run the variant of scions who get -1 ap on everything for free) or even a battlecannon, and a storm bolter. If you are going to be nid hunting, I would strongly consider the 2 of them and running them as (see militarum tempest thread) with the extra ap point on a 20 shot turret, each.
Cleverly magnetized, these taurox can also be run much cheaper as basic astra militarum transports (72 points .. 2 autocannon and 1 stormbolter).
So you are up to .. ah .. 396+126+126--- about 648 points, for an armored battalion with the ability to deepstrike in most of its units, with a few melee units in it that will work well with your ministerium priest (when you get him)!
To get yourself to 1000 points, you can buy a single starter imperial gaurd / astra box, and a single valkyrie box
1 company commander (lets face it, he is any guy with a chainsword and a different paint job in the early game, in your case, use a scion model head on the top of a commisar body and say "he's a commander!" or a cadian head) (35 points, cause you used the lord commisar's body and equipment bolt pistol + powersword) .. but you can also easily convince your friends to let him count as a chainsword and a laspistol for 30.
And 10 imperial gaurd with cadian attributes (I always give them a grenade and a missle launcher, for good punch at range in cadian reroll abilities) 53 points
the leman russ you can build out cheap with a battlecannon and a heavy bolter
AND a cheap valkyrie (121 points)
That brings you to 997 points for your army. You now have the beginnings of a tank corps, a leman russ with two scion tanks to flank it, the beginnings of an air drop cavalry group, and the beginnings of an infantry screen for your tanks. Total dollar cost to get there is about 100 per starter box + 60 or so for the valkyrie, so about 360, which is pretty cheap for 1000 points in gaurd. You can practice all the basic things gaurd do except indirect fire and psykers.
Which, funnily enough, is easy to add to this army -- you can get to 1500 points in a heartbeat by adding in 2 more boxes of starter astra militarum, leading to the 1500 point army below, and then you have 500 points to pick out backfield artillery and psykers with to get to the 2000 point army (whch I include but its just an example by this point, I expect you are building your own army your own way)
scion battalion .. all weapons get an additional -1 ap except the lord commisar (sorry!)
tempest prime (extra warlord -1 cp) (extra relic deathmask of oleanus. Powerfist and rod of command.
lord commisar (powersword and emperor's benediction relic bolt pistol3 s4/-1/2 (sniper weapon)
5 man scion troop with 2 plasma gun and plasma pistol, powersword
5 man scion troop with 2 plasma gun and plasma pistol, powersword
5 man scion troop with 2 hotshotvolleygun and plasma pistol, chainsword
4 man scion command squad with 4 meltaguns
valkyrie with 2 multiple rocket pods and 1 multilaser. I confess I prefer to run them with more guns but this one is cheeeeap)
taurox prime with gatling cannon and 2 hotshotvolleyguns and 1 stormbolter. These clean up infantry, and -1 ap should be enough to do a number even on relatively sturdy infantry, when you factor in the astropaths at 2000 points to strip enemy cover. taurox prime with gatling cannon and 2 hotshotvolleyguns and 1 stormbolter. For some 252 points, you are putting out no fewer than 64 anti-infantry shots at bs3+, which is awesome. There might be some gaurd units that do this a smidge better if you are a superclever designer with lots of leman russ tanks, for example, but they won't do it MUCH better. This whole army corps is relatively competitive in the current meta, I mean, the units above, were they the core of an army, would feel ok at any local tournament day. Maybe not any GT tournament, but solid for local tourney play. Give them a backfield artillery wing and a couple marine units from your imperial fists, and you would have a solid little expeditionary force. but to continue with this list...
cadian patrol detachment
1 company commander
1 lord commisar with powersword and plasma pistol
10 man imperial gaurd regular cadians with grenade launcher, missle launcher, chainsword, and laspistol
1 leman russ battletank (bs4+) with battlecannon, heavy bolter, stormbolter.
Note that for a bit more money in cash, you could convert your lord commisar's cost into a pair of astropaths, if you wanted EVERY possible function in the game in your 1000 point army. Which would get you started playing!)
at 1500 points
The cadian group becomes a second battalion with the specialist detachment "emperor's armored fist" (-1cp)
tank commander (cadian) battlecannon (relic "hammer of sunderance") and field commander tank (-2cp spent), 2 plasma cannon, 1 lascannon, stormbolter
tank commander (cadian) tank ace (-1 cp) (battlecannon, 2 plasma cannon, 1 heavy bolter)
company commander (cadian)
3 x 10 man imperial gaurd squad with missle launcher and grenade launcher each. These give you the weight of bodies to surround and gaurd your tanks a bit better, but don't count out what cadian gunnery can do with krak missles and grenades against armor (in the case of the necrons) or vs horde (with frags from each unit's spec and heavy) for nids.
1 leman russ battle tank with battlecannon, heavy bolter, stormbolter
ok, so that adds actually only 499 points to your army, I think you can actually afford to put a stormbolter on both new tanks. Your midfield armor group is up to 5 tanks now, which is respectable, I think, at the point level.
Again, this isn't 'the best army ever" but its how I would put it together if I were on a budget and trying to buy new stuff without blowing my budget to heck!
For 2000, I would add in long range artillery support, ogryn bodygaurds and astropaths, a ministerium priest and perhaps a psyker primaris.
psyker primaris (command element for a bunch of elites and 2 heavy support, so only 1 extra cp is made)
2 ogryn bodygaurd
1 platoon commander. He carries the extra relic to allow the wyvern to ignore cover/ and can be designated the field commander of the emperor's wrath artillery column
1 heavy support manticore
1 heavy support wyvern]
I mean, by this point, you have every function the gaurd can do crammed into a 2000 point list, deepstrikes, infantry screens, tanks, artillery, valkyries, transports, psykers, and astropaths and a minipriest. Its not a godlist, but I wouldn't kick it out of bed either -- those little taurox primes with -1 ap are pretty good hordeclear, and the mix of scions and regulars lets you both screen and strike.
Your big three books of rules for all this stuff are the astra mililtarum codex + vigilis + psychic awakening "greater good" books.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/03/23 07:24:25
Edit: this post replied to Stromm, not Dukeofstuff, who also gave really good advice
Sure. But just to be honest with you, I too only started IG a year ago and have no practical experience. So everything I write is condensed from what I read on various tactica sides and puzzled together mathing around a bit.
For a rough overview about the units and weapons you could look at 1d4chan:
Just don't take it as the total essence of wisdom but more as a nice general overview.
As I read in your other thread, you want to build a combined force of Marines and Imperial Guard, correct? IG is a very good ally-army, as they have various options to fill in deficits of other armies. But if you don't go pure IG it seems to be better to not try and cover all these options but to focus a bit. Therefore it would be helpful if you take your time and think about what the Marines part of your army will be good at and what they will be bad at so that you can match your Guardsmen to that.
Some things IG can provide
- cheap bodies and command points: there is a thing called the loyal 32, basically two Company commanders + 3 Infantry squads. They generate 5 command points that you can also use for your marines, cost only Edit: 180 points and provide 32 bodies to "bubblewrap" more important Units.
- Long range firepower: various IG vehicles have >48'' of range quite a few don't need line of sight. If your other army is rather short ranged you will find Leman Russ Battle cannons (72''), Basilisks (240'') and Manticors (120'') quite helpful
- cheap Anti-Tank firepower: Here I would again mention the Basilisk and Manticore (as they have >8 strength), the Leman Russ with Demolisher or Battlecannon. Also IG lascannons only cost 15 points, missile launchers only 10, so it might be interesting to put some heavy weapons in your Infantry Squads or add some Heavy Weapons Squads, if you plan on standing still. Note that against enemies with less than T8 (like most of the Tyranid units from a rough glance) the missile launcher is almost as effective as the lascannon while costing only 2/3 the points.
- cheap Anti-Infantry firepower: The Leman Russ Punisher is extremely cost efficient, the Hellhound is a good option and massed infantry can provide your more expensive units with a good screen to keep them from getting tied up
- cheap access to plasma on expendable units: overcharged plasma is amongst the most efficient options to kill marines and the only drawback is the risk of killing the firing model on a one. Cadians can reroll 1s when they stand still reducing the risk from 16% per shot to 2.8%. Also plasma guns only cost 7/11 points on units with BS4+/3+ and if your guardsmen kills itself, you only loose a cheap body, not something like a costly marine. Also Leman Russ tanks only loose 1 wound per 1 rolled and can be ordered by tank commanders to reroll their 1s.
- very circumstancial: cheap voluminous wounds: what I mean with that, IF you have a plan in mind that involves for example blocking a chokepoint for some rounds, the IG can provide vehicles with loadouts that while lacking firepower take up quite a bit of space while quite a few wounds and toughness for their pricetags. Examples include: barebones Leman Russ with hull Bolter and without sponsons => ~130 Points for 12 T8 wounds sounds quite cheap. Chimera: 73 points for 10 T7 wounds, Armored Sentinels with Multilasers: 35 points for 6 T6 wounds
As said above: it is usually futile to try and do all of that, but as you might get from the examples, you can adapt your regiment to fill out weaknesses of your marines. And also you can see as I mentioned: You usually don't get wrong with Leman Russ, as they can provide a lot of these roles.
To further tips I would like to give you:
1. On the modelling side: even if you have no experience with kitbashing I highly recommend to at least magnetize the Leman Russ weapons options. There are various good tutorials online and I also did one on an alternative magnetizing option for the turret:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778102.page You only need a hand drill (for example on Amazon), glue and some magnets (quite cheap for example on puppetswar.eu)
This way you are not fixed on a specific loadout but can change if you want to try something different. You can even magnetize the Option for sponson/no sponson
2. on the Regiments side: even if you use Cadians and paint them cadian you can well use any Regiment you like. Just tell your opponent that for example today all your guys will be Tallarn. As long as they are clearly distinguishable that should be no Problem.
3. When you play: try to keep in mind how cheap your guys are. You should not just throw them away, but you should also not cling to them. Guardsmen are there to die, they should just achieve something while dying. It's completely OK to send a 40 point infantry squad to their certain doom in close combat against some giant monster, if they can give your 150 points Leman Russ tank another round of highly effective Shooting.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/23 10:07:09
Pyrolachis points are good, especially about "gaurdsmen gonna die". I think that is why I so heavily emphasize the armies that can deepstrike in their gaurdsmen or drop them out of valkyries, because that makes it hard for the enemy to simply wipe them all out turn 1. But yes, that is why the most supercompetitive gaurd players don't bother to put the grenade launcher/ missle launcher combo I favor in basic gaurdsmen. With marines doublefiring all their bolters and potentially starting a wave of aggressors and 30 scouts in firing range of your back line, the gaurd troops die awful fast when they are forced into the open to block enemy first turn charges and movement.
Re magnetic leman russ, if you put a piece of paper around the inside of the sponsoon weapons, they stick nicely in place without magnets and can be swapped between games or removed entirely. Also works for the hull weapon.
Re magnetic taurox prime the turret weapons themselves can simply be stuck in the turret by hand, no magnet necessary, if you have painted them they are tight enough to hold. I would magnetize the missle rack on the back and the autocannons on the sides, though, which lets you swap from being a taurox (which is properly a transport the astra militarum can all use) and the taurox prime (which only scions and commisars can ride in, but it shoots a LOT better). But in your local competition, you might end up consolidating your 3 heavy weapons into a heavy weapon squad, load that into a taurox for safekeeping round 1, and your 3 grenade launchers into a special weapons squad (with 3 other gaurdsmen bodies) to load into the other, and then fill out the 30 raw gaurdsmen (you can allways buy a 5 pack of gaurdsmen for 10 bucks, to fill out like that) .. they become 40 point screen units with lasguns. Not terrible, but your counterpunch is better protected.
I am not recommending starting with basilisks ONLY because they consume so many command points, double firing them is needed to put out the same rough firepower as a single manticore, and its 2 cp a round. They are otherwise awesome, pyro is correct. Manticores got a new aiming strategy that is quite helpful though, for 1 cp, and they make excellent tank aces in the new rules (max damage for the win!)
Also, please bear in mind from my massive suggestion / list building that I have been building almost entirely scions lists fro the last six months with a smidge of cadian artillery (usually manticores/basilisk combos) in support, so I am a little fuzzy on the prices of the taurox prime weapon options (those got changed recently) and the cheapest version of the leman russ. I think those maybe you should doublecheck if you try to replicate my maths.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/23 07:41:19
Interesting, I never knew Guard could be so versatile. I do like the idea of having scions in my force but I like the look of Cadians better and don't really want most of my army dominated by stormtroopers.
Ajnything you can do with 5 man troops of scions can be done at ALMOST the same price point with 10 man blobs of gaurd infantry. Especailly if you have a few transports of some kind, not all your gaurd has to start on the table, which is furiously useful in the current meta.
Astropaths are key, though, if you want to rock regular gaurd soldiers, because they let your lackluster 0 points of armor piercing double its effects against things like marines in cover, and increase by a third even against things like admech troops or many other troops like scions, etc. Each astropath can just point (there are fine parts to the rule about who gets the effect and ranges and such) and say "that unit has no cover save bonus!".
A battlecannon firing at a landraider (whose owner cleverly stuck it in cover) becomes a full 50 percent more effective when that happens, just because a 15 point officer nearby said "I AGREE< KILL THAT!". .. so its not just the lower troops that can benefit.