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I've been watching tons of Ork battle reports on Youtube in my now endless free time and I'm curious why people seem to choose Power Klaws over Killsaws for their Boss Nobz? I know that very few Nobz kits include them but the standard Nobz kit includes one Killsaw and ive found the smaller Killsaw in the Meganobz kit does a decent job without being completely ridiculous in size.

Stats comparison (for non Ork players):

Power Klaw: 13pts S(user x2) AP -3 D d3

Killsaw: 15pts S(user x2) AP -4 D2 (You may take a second Killsaw for 8pts and you gain +1 attack)

A boss Nob for a mob of Boyz could have six S10 AP-4 D2 attacks with two Killsaws, Green Tide, and Warpath from a Weird Boy. It just seems like using Killsaws would be a very cheap way of making your mobs of Boyz able to deal much bigger hits on Space Marines since ever hit he lands is a 2+ to wound and auto kills the Marine on a successful wound.

Here is a picture of my three Boss Nobz: (Stormboy Boss Nob with two Killsaws and two Boss Nobz for Boyz units each with a Killsaw and Choppa)

Id imagine most Ork players already have most of their models armed with klaws and don't feel like giving them new loadouts. Plus saws cost more points. I do agree an extra AP and flat 2 damage is really nice, but given that one is 2 pts more and buying a second one costs a lot more, I think it's safe to say that they're close enough most Ork players are probably fine running what they've already got. Just not worth the effort most likely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Id imagine most Ork players already have most of their models armed with klaws and don't feel like giving them new loadouts. Plus saws cost more points. I do agree an extra AP and flat 2 damage is really nice, but given that one is 2 pts more and buying a second one costs a lot more, I think it's safe to say that they're close enough most Ork players are probably fine running what they've already got. Just not worth the effort most likely.

They aren't very close though...

At AP -4 the Killsaw will completely ignore Space Marines 3+ armor save and the flat 2 damage will reliably kill Space Marines. While the Power Klaw will still allow the Marine a 6+ save and d3 damage means you might only deal 1 damage which wont kill the model.

-matt

Yes but killsaws are also unable to deal 3 dmg in one hit.

Anyways it probably comes down to what models people already have

Gitdakka wrote:
Yes but killsaws are also unable to deal 3 dmg in one hit.

Anyways it probably comes down to what models people already have

Which only matters when you only get 1 past save and absolutely need the 3 wounds to kill.

The fact you are giving extra 5+ save to 2w models matters lot more.

Bigger reason is price. Klaw isn't good option either. Killsaw isn't much better. Against targets boyz are good you dont need klaw or saw. Where you need one that is hitting on 4+ isn't doing much. You struggle to dent even a rhino.

Killsaws are clearly the better weapon, especially in the light of primaris now actually being good.

There are three main reasons why people don't put them on their nobz:
- Those killsaw nobs have an extremely high chance of not actually doing any damage with that killsaw. Often they die before fighting even once, as it's reasonable to expect losing 30-60 boyz per turn. Even if they do get the charge, it's fairly safe to expect them to be dead by your next turn. It's also possible that the killsaw doesn't make a difference against targets you are fighting, for example because they have low saves and only one wound, or because they have invulnerable saves.
- Extra points for killsaws add up. If you bring three mobs with dual killsaws (because guess who dies first if you only bring one), that's 69 points of bringing dual choppas or 54 points over bringing big choppas. 54 points gets you far better stuff in the ork codex.
- Killsaws can only be gotten from the nobz box or by cannibalizing a MANz box. Many people also simply don't have killsaw nobz because the option didn't exist until 8th edition. Sure, converting one isn't hard, but the gain is not great enough to cut up an already painted model.

I usually put a killsaw on my warbiker nob, since he is pretty much guaranteed to get into combat, but if I'm short on points, it's one of the first things to go.

I don’t want to convert a bunch of twin killsaw nobz only for the option to disappear.

Matt you forgot the -1 to hit for both the PK and the KS.

As has already been stated - likely the reason your YouTube battle reports don't feature more KS Nobs is because for years us Ork players have had it drilled into us that PKs are the way to go. So they're all modelled (and pained) that way. It'd be too much of a faff, the scarcity of the weapon in modelling terms not withstanding.

I haven't seen many Nobz in units in 8th Ed. to begin with, lol.

Most just cheap it out and do damage with the Vigilus-SAG instead.

After watching many (over 20 now) Ork battle reports i've learned that for the most part mobs of Boyz don't work against Space Marines. A mob of 30 Boyz will be lucky if it picks off more then 4 models with 2 wounds and 3+ saves in a turn. The mob is usually wiped out by the second turn so that first turn is the highest priority.

In fact I've yet to see Orks win a decisive victory over Space Marines... when Orks win its been because of luck and points. Now Ive only seen about 40 hours worth of battle reports so that may be a pretty small sample but it certainly doesn't build confidence. This is why I see the Killsaw as a potentially big boost for that one turn the mob of Boyz will be alive. Seems like 2 extra points is a small price to pay for the ability to one shot a very dangerous model.

Now the explanation of 8th edition being the first edition with Killsaws being an option does answer my question. I've been out of the loop for years and didn't know this was a new option.


thank you
-matt

You cannot defeat marines by crushing them. You defeat them by preventing them from scoring while you score yourself.

It doesn't really matter if they have 1k points left on the board if those can't kill/move far enough to score VP.

I don't feel killsaws are that importiant in my Boys Mobs I spend few points on my Nobs, usually for Big choppas or nothing at all.
The way I look at both Power Klaws and Kill saws now is to be worth my time I need a bunch of them in the same unit. Or on some one with a high number of attacks that will hit.
So I have some in a dedicated Mega Nobz Mob and some on Spanners for my Burna boys or Meks left over from the index list.
Oddly I still prefer Power Klaws. Which I tend to aim at vehicles and characters with more than two wounds as primary targets. Just like I have for several editions, works fine for me.



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Matt85 wrote:
After watching many (over 20 now) Ork battle reports i've learned that for the most part mobs of Boyz don't work against Space Marines. A mob of 30 Boyz will be lucky if it picks off more then 4 models with 2 wounds and 3+ saves in a turn. The mob is usually wiped out by the second turn so that first turn is the highest priority.

In fact I've yet to see Orks win a decisive victory over Space Marines... when Orks win its been because of luck and points.

I don't often have that problem, granted i have not yet played against the current SM codex. Usually My boys make contact and the grind begins. I also soften the target I wish to charge prior to getting there.
I'll take luck when I need it. I prefer scoring points, presenting bad choices to the other army and mayhem over luck but I wont turn it down.

Personally I much prefer Big Choppas. Much cheaper, St 7, -1 2dam with no -1 to hit is very flexible and effective.

Discussion and argument would be ratio price/perfomance. Neither klaws or saws makes enough differece to justify their inclusion further than one.

Personally, I play Death skulls and since I only afford one per unit, klaws are more cost effective given the rerolls.

On nobs, problem is their accuracy. Should they hit without modifiers (or nobs on2+) they certainly would see more play.

Don't see klaws as much because before Ork players took Klaws for their ability to destroy vehicles AND heavy infantry. As it currently stands Klaws are meh against vehicles and the minus to hit really mucks up their viability against infantry. It really bad when 8th first dropped with those insanely overcoated Klaws but even with the points drop they still struggle due to minus to hit being an moronic equivalent to swinging last.

Saws are decently better for 2 points more but I would be hard pressed to care enough about converting PK Nobz to Saws when both are lackluster. Besides Saws are suppose to OBLITERATE vehicles and yet they would need 5 rounds of close combat to kill a Rhino.

Marines have the same issue with the Chainfist. Flat D2 is a definite improvement over Dd3 but it's generally not worth the extra 2 points on anything that can carry it.

If Marines had access to the Big Choppa they'd almost never use anything else.

You should always take a Saw over a power klaw in a TAC.

I think it's generally painted models, and the fact it's hard to actually get Saws.

It might just be because saws aren't included in allot of sets so you won't have them to use them or parts to convert them...
Or am I just insane for thinking this?

 ValentineGames wrote:
It might just be because saws aren't included in allot of sets so you won't have them to use them or parts to convert them...
Or am I just insane for thinking this?

We're orks and it's pretty trivial to kitbash a killsaw. If it actually were a much better alternative to other weapons, people would put more effort into kitbashing them. Kans and deff dreads all come with extra saws that can be repurposed, and MANz come with six saws you can put on pretty much anything. When they were mandatory, people have been building their own PKs for every nob, and that's much harder to do.
Right now, choppa, big choppa, PK and killsaw are pretty much equivalent in power, the more you pay, the more you get. But there is no need to do so, so people work with what they have.

 ValentineGames wrote:
It might just be because saws aren't included in allot of sets so you won't have them to use them or parts to convert them...
Or am I just insane for thinking this?

I don't know about ever one else but I first built my plastic MANZ with Power Klaws and had the saws left over and enough bits to outfit a few Plastic Nobz with Kill saws and a Big Mek.
But after more thought on how I wanted to use Kill saws they all found their way back to the MANZ models.

I don't really feel the need for more than a few Big choppas an occasional power klaw when it comes to boys mobs, where the boys will do all the actual work.
.

 warhead01 wrote:

 ValentineGames wrote:
It might just be because saws aren't included in allot of sets so you won't have them to use them or parts to convert them...
Or am I just insane for thinking this?

I don't know about ever one else but I first built my plastic MANZ with Power Klaws and had the saws left over and enough bits to outfit a few Plastic Nobz with Kill saws and a Big Mek.
But after more thought on how I wanted to use Kill saws they all found their way back to the MANZ models.

I don't really feel the need for more than a few Big choppas an occasional power klaw when it comes to boys mobs, where the boys will do all the actual work.
.

I thought about putting the Killsaws on the MANZ but then I figured they were just too slow to constantly stay in close combat so I went with the Kombi-Rokkits. at least with the Rokkits they would be able to do some hard hitting shooting after they teleport in and charge and hopefully kill their first target.

the Killsaw on the Boyz Boss Nob is just to give the unit of Boyz the ability to hurt Space Marine units. Choppas and Sluggas just don't do much against T4 models with 2 wounds and a 3+ save. The unit of Boyz will probably still lose the fight but the damage they do will likely be much more significant.

-matt

Matt85 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

 ValentineGames wrote:
It might just be because saws aren't included in allot of sets so you won't have them to use them or parts to convert them...
Or am I just insane for thinking this?

I don't know about ever one else but I first built my plastic MANZ with Power Klaws and had the saws left over and enough bits to outfit a few Plastic Nobz with Kill saws and a Big Mek.
But after more thought on how I wanted to use Kill saws they all found their way back to the MANZ models.

I don't really feel the need for more than a few Big choppas an occasional power klaw when it comes to boys mobs, where the boys will do all the actual work.
.

I thought about putting the Killsaws on the MANZ but then I figured they were just too slow to constantly stay in close combat so I went with the Kombi-Rokkits. at least with the Rokkits they would be able to do some hard hitting shooting after they teleport in and charge and hopefully kill their first target.

the Killsaw on the Boyz Boss Nob is just to give the unit of Boyz the ability to hurt Space Marine units. Choppas and Sluggas just don't do much against T4 models with 2 wounds and a 3+ save. The unit of Boyz will probably still lose the fight but the damage they do will likely be much more significant.

-matt

Different strokes for different folks I guess. The key for Ork, for me, has always been the adage - "everything counts in large amounts."
I used Kill saw Manz (from the index ) in mobs of 3 in a trukk and due to my playstyle they worked as intended . So they were differently over costed and had less deployment options.
I think 5 of them would be a really solid unit. Especially now. and that's 20 attacked that I can buff. Mine are also Goffs so we're extra choppy.
I can agree with the Rokkits. Sure and with Dakka Dakka Dakka and maybe a reroll in there some where. Depending on the Ork clan. Could be really good.
I can't figure out how your having trouble dealing with marines with boys. I can see they could be trouble if they were in large squads. But if that's they case shoot half of them dead first.
Orks have so many better options than adding a single kill saw to a boys mob. That saw might buy you an extra tankbusta some where.
Normally I like to shoot the choppy ones and chop the shooty ones but if that isn't working might chop the choppy ones ans shoot the shooty ones. Might work.