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Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






 ingtaer wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
 ingtaer wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I think if it is talking future psychic awakening then it should be allowable.


Whilst I do agree with you in principle, the last two threads on the subject have shown that people are utterly incapable of sticking to the topic and what is supposed to be News and Rumours devolves into all kinds of off topic nonsense. So no, we will be sticking to one thread per release until the PA series is done.


I also agree with what you think on this matter, however rather than just say "well it's going to turn into a S***show, so we shouldn't" yourself and the rest of the moderators need to do your/their jobs better to be quite frank, suspensions and bans for the most toxic, trolls of the forum, and that's including people that cannot stay on topic.

I have been a member of this forum for quite some time now, and being a member of other forums I do not actually like significant moderation and I hate what I am asking for above, yet there are so many people on here that cannot behave themselves (and I think the current world climate is not helping with less real life things for people to do) then an enforced break is necessary. People just cannot conduct themselves online very well any more, and I have been just as bad at times but seriously, if they don't shut up, set them free, stop ruining it for the rest of us.

Edit 1: That isn't a personal attack at yourself in terms of how you choose to moderate, it's not necessarily a personal attack on any moderator, maybe it's the rules you adhere to yourselves that don't give the flexibility to do what I am requesting above, in which case, maybe those rules need to change? All I'm saying is, use your power a little bit more, just closing and locking off threads actually doesn't do anything, it just shifts the ridiculousness elsewhere in the forum.

Edit 2: Fully aware of the irony in that I am being considerably off topic in moaning about the people that cannot stop being off topic in other threads...


Feel free to start a thread in Nuts and Bolts for this to avoid dragging this thread further off topic (we haven't even managed a page yet!).


Basically, here to do what was suggested. I thought rather than reword what I stated, it may as well be there as it was presented, with the edits included.

Just to reiterate, this is no specific issues I have with specific moderators, it's more you guys as a collective. I just think for persistent abuses of the above, which granted aren't the most offensive or worse things that happen on this forum, should be dealt with, with more vigour.

I just think these specific issues are some of the 'gateways' that happen in general on the forum. Some of the most extreme/vocal people on the forum just carry topics off in random directions on a consistent and regular basis, they ignore mod warnings and carry on and then a thread is locked.... Months or years down the line those guys are some of the most vile and toxic members of the forum, talking S*** to everyone when they could have been weeded out long ago. It's to the detriment of other people on the forum as well who can keep a conversation going and on topic.

Basically, certain members need to be punished more harshly and potentially banned as they just S*** all over everyone else trying to have a decent time.

Again, I'm not big on over moderation but some of the specific members are actually just trolls at this point and offer nothing to the vast majority of their members.

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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Vigour is the right word, I think . We probably do need to crack down on some repeat offenders (and for the record, 90% of the current moderator alerts issues are currently from the coronavirus thread, or the psychic awakening one ). Just takes a lot of work to do so!

Appreciate the positive / constructive feedback way you're bringing this up. Honestly I'm pretty socked at the moment with my kids being home due to the pandemic (and I've been riding herd on that thread) but seeing suggestions like this actually really does help us know what people would like to see on the site, and if we're missing anything.
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






 RiTides wrote:
Vigour is the right word, I think . We probably do need to crack down on some repeat offenders (and for the record, 90% of the current moderator alerts issues are currently from the coronavirus thread, or the psychic awakening one ). Just takes a lot of work to do so!

Appreciate the positive / constructive feedback way you're bringing this up. Honestly I'm pretty socked at the moment with my kids being home due to the pandemic (and I've been riding herd on that thread) but seeing suggestions like this actually really does help us know what people would like to see on the site, and if we're missing anything.


I totally get that you have other things on your plate, I don't think it even needs to be acted upon quickly per say but yeah, some of the people just need setting free now.

Stay safe bro, the world is wild at the moment!

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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I do feel that stepping up the response, particularly now given that a lot of people are at home with nothing better to do, is a good idea. I think rule 1 violations in particular should be enforced a bit more strictly. Something like a 1-day ban is merely an inconvenience, but it sends a message. I feel that long term it would improve behavior overall.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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[MOD]
Villanous Scum







Thanks for setting up the new thread and thanks for the constructive feedback.

As it relates to the PA threads, there were a ridiculous number of in thread, private and formal warnings (including suspensions) handed out over the course of the two threads but it seems to have little impact. One major issue with such long rambling threads is that people will often make off the cuff remarks ("I wish there was something for my faction"/"Why does this faction get another release") and before you can blink there are dozens of replies and it has devolved into pointless bickering.

As for harsher measures, I agree and disagree at the same time. With OT stuff the vast majority of people do not understand why it is an issue (and thus why they got a warning) and thus are unable to moderate their posting to avoid doing it. Whilst we could just banhammer them out of existence it really is not out preferred way of doing things and often these same posters are really great and constructive posters elsewhere. We do not have the ability to enforce topic only bans except in the OT forum so it is side wide or nothing (or checking a users posting constantly).

With the split of the PA threads it should be much easier to keep track of what is going on where (once people are used to it) and the emphasis can be back on the actual News and Rumours as opposed to rambling thoughts of poster X on topic Y. These threads will also have a much shorter lifespan than one mega thread and so will cease to be relevant much quicker and hopefully before they devolve into the cesspools of the previous ones.

As for the larger site wide points that have been raised, we will take it on board and I will open a thread in the moderator board to discuss amongst ourselves but welcome further thoughts from people.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Just a thing from my experiences moderating on other sites:

Banning/suspensions are often what many people want to happen/think should happen to resolve issues on a site. It's the most overt and often the only result of moderator actions that users can see. Ergo when things get reported and no one is banned/suspended people think that the mods have done nothing.


In reality there's often far more success for the site in terms of user retention and changing behaviour in open discussion with those who are the subject of reports. Ergo trying to show people the error of their ways; where behaviour is not tolerated and then provide them tools and the option to change their behaviour.

This can sometimes take a while and more than one incident to make a person start to change how they interact and behave - especially as much of the time its not what they've said its how or where they've said it that is the greater issue.



I think heavy draconian measures are only really of any use when a very significant portion of the membership have issues and there is just not enough time to talk to each one in-depth; especially when other users continue the disruptive behaviour and it persists like a "cult/group/club" on the site. Bad behaviour reinforcing bad behaviour. In that climate shorter warning periods and swifter suspensions can be the right tool as its more aiming to break cycles of behaviour and break the unity of a group on the site causing the disruption.



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[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

It's also worth mentioning that a lot of the complaints about threads going off topic come from people who participate in driving those threads off topic. On any number of occasions, I've literally had people posting off-topic replies in threads while I was in the process of cleaning out the off-topic posts those same people had reported. It's much easier for us to keep things on track if people don't actually respond to those tangents in the first place.

And yes, that includes posting to tell someone that they're off topic, or posting the 'last word' and then demanding that the other person should drop it and get back on topic.

 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 insaniak wrote:
It's also worth mentioning that a lot of the complaints about threads going off topic come from people who participate in driving those threads off topic.


I have never been so grievously personally attacked on the forum as this sentence.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






 Overread wrote:
Just a thing from my experiences moderating on other sites:

Banning/suspensions are often what many people want to happen/think should happen to resolve issues on a site. It's the most overt and often the only result of moderator actions that users can see. Ergo when things get reported and no one is banned/suspended people think that the mods have done nothing.


In reality there's often far more success for the site in terms of user retention and changing behaviour in open discussion with those who are the subject of reports. Ergo trying to show people the error of their ways; where behaviour is not tolerated and then provide them tools and the option to change their behaviour.

This can sometimes take a while and more than one incident to make a person start to change how they interact and behave - especially as much of the time its not what they've said its how or where they've said it that is the greater issue.



I think heavy draconian measures are only really of any use when a very significant portion of the membership have issues and there is just not enough time to talk to each one in-depth; especially when other users continue the disruptive behaviour and it persists like a "cult/group/club" on the site. Bad behaviour reinforcing bad behaviour. In that climate shorter warning periods and swifter suspensions can be the right tool as its more aiming to break cycles of behaviour and break the unity of a group on the site causing the disruption.




I get where you are coming from here, and really I'm a teacher out here in the real world so I understand and appreciate your theory on trying to change behaviour. I think a few bad apples can ruin the bunch as well though and well, when one person is getting away with things, others soon follow as you reference with bad behaviour reinforcing it.

I really dislike draconian measures also, but yeah I think we are ultimately along the same lines in what you suggest and what I want, however I'd argue that the time is already upon the forum to be swifter with suspensions. It's already happening again, people are starting to divert off topic considerably and they clearly ignore warnings.

It does seem certain members have been suspended of late, those members are some of the key players in these issues. However, I believe the same members have been sanctioned before also, if they aren't going to change just save yourselves a headache.

In terms of gaining site wide feedback about the issue (whether most members see it as a problem or not) a quick poll on the matter might suffice? Even a google forms questionnaire might give you some insight. This use to happen on a yearly basis on a punk rock forum I use to visit years ago and it was highly effective I'd say, moderators changed how they approached things and people were eventually turfed out who would cause consistent issues for the vast majority.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/03 12:33:50


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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Overread wrote:
Just a thing from my experiences moderating on other sites:

Banning/suspensions are often what many people want to happen/think should happen to resolve issues on a site. It's the most overt and often the only result of moderator actions that users can see. Ergo when things get reported and no one is banned/suspended people think that the mods have done nothing.


In reality there's often far more success for the site in terms of user retention and changing behaviour in open discussion with those who are the subject of reports. Ergo trying to show people the error of their ways; where behaviour is not tolerated and then provide them tools and the option to change their behaviour.

This can sometimes take a while and more than one incident to make a person start to change how they interact and behave - especially as much of the time its not what they've said its how or where they've said it that is the greater issue.



I think heavy draconian measures are only really of any use when a very significant portion of the membership have issues and there is just not enough time to talk to each one in-depth; especially when other users continue the disruptive behaviour and it persists like a "cult/group/club" on the site. Bad behaviour reinforcing bad behaviour. In that climate shorter warning periods and swifter suspensions can be the right tool as its more aiming to break cycles of behaviour and break the unity of a group on the site causing the disruption.
I feel like, while true to an extent, it is unrealistic to expect mods to effectively act as counselors for a forum so large. It would be one thing if this was their job, but given the context I feel like handing out very short-duration bans sends a message without being draconian.

But that is just my take on things. I am not a mod.

As for the larger topic about enforcing the stay-on-topic rule, I personally feel that is less of a concern than enforcing rule #1. I am under the impression this topic is meant to be more broad than JUST relating to off-topic discussion but someone please correct me if I am wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/04 00:18:45


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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

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Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Usually the mods don't mind a thread getting a little off topic, but all too often a thread misses it's left turn at Albuquerque and ends up nowhere near where it should have been heading to (i.e., Pismo Beach)

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I feel like, while true to an extent, it is unrealistic to expect mods to effectively act as counselors for a forum so large. It would be one thing if this was their job, but given the context I feel like handing out very short-duration bans sends a message without being draconian.


I'd wager that if you were to study it and get the reports chances are the number of problem people on Dakka isn't all that high. Problem people, in my experience, tend to partly be a problem not just because of their actions, but because they are typically very active and prolific users. They also tend to display patterns of behaviour - subjects that set them off; topics that they engage with regularly; quirks of behaviour that basically repeat. So often as not you can isolate and tackle them.

Of course I do agree that for volunteers it can take its toll on free time the mods have and disrupt enjoyment of a site for them. On the flipside if you tackle the "ring leaders" the overall impact can be quite large.

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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






First off, I've had issues with mods and moderation here before. So maybe I'm not the best person to be offering any advice. But I think you should try to give equal attention to off topic posts and rule 1 violations. Mostly because one often leads to the other. Also in the past I felt like there's been uneven enforcing of the rules. Like some posters get a lot of leeway. But I'm worn out arguing that point.
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Just to re-reference this, a specific mod warning has been made in the Psychic Awakening: Engine War thread today which is a prime example of what has been referenced above, and maybe the measures taken not being far enough.

As en example, a specific poster that has a name that relates to eggs has been a nuisance for weeks now, across multiple threads, these are the people that a warning I truly believe does not suffice as appropriate action in this specific circumstance (I'm assuming this poster has been warned via PM already, and recently).

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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






I’m seeing a lot of political posts in the Coronavirus thread not being challenged. Is the ban on politics lifted in there? Or is it just the usual ‘depends on who’s saying it’ kind of deal? I’d like to know before I make a post that ends up getting deleted.
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

There have been a few religious posts as well, including one of mine. Mine got deleted. The others didn’t. Despite mine only calling out a priest who didn’t listen to the government and also offering a reason this isn’t the apocalypse. I do think they’re overtaxed by how much extra traffic is happening, but they’re also being over zealous and starting to crack a bit.

That said, I am a bit salty that mine got deleted while others were allowed to stay up. I figure somebody got offended by the three letter word. That’s ok. If people are crying over that, I’d like the mods to erase every comment during Covid about how safety and security is interfering with their stupid right to models. Because there have been posts by narcissists all over the place here who consider their rights to get/work on models to be more important than peoples’ safety. And one of those posts came from someone who is or at least used to be a mod.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 15:18:09


Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


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Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Life ain’t fair, get over it. This site isn’t a public place. It’s a private club. It’s easy to join, but in the end, a select group of people decide if you can stay.

They have rules, but they aren’t laws. And yeah, some people can dance outside the edges of the rules and “get away with it”. This might be due to providing interesting content, being funny, or a lack of spitting on the shoes of the people that run the place.

It’s not a democracy. It’s a Senate (in the ye-olde Roman term). Appointed officials run the show as a group. You are free to complain, and the Senator is free to propose your eviction... though they’d need to get other senators on board too, and some of the Senators have some incredible patience for bs.

Welcome to the real world, where the rules are just guidelines until they’re inconvenient then they’re just suggestions, really. If you don’t like it, report it. If you don’t report it, and instead engage, that’s on the engager, not the mods.
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight, I'd very like it if we could keep things polite, because the tone of that reply is not helping. This thread has been very useful so far and just this once I'd like a feedback thread to not be locked because it spiralled out of control like the many-many-many-many threads that preceded this one.



At the moment we may be seeing some gaps in mod coverage due to the COVID-19 crisis. I can only speak for myself here, but I am an expendable essential worker where my job requires me to be outdoors five to six long days of the week due to these crazy times.

I will add that we have been discussing things brought up in this topic and looking at how to best deal with some of the resident fevered egos, those who toe the line a lot and that other small percentage of the user base that likes to ruin things for the vast majority who just want to enjoy these forums. There's a lot more going on in the background than we can let on, which is a tad frustrating as before I joined the moderation ranks, I used to think all the time that they were doing nothing but raking in Dakka-dollars, but well.. plenty of stuff is happening, but as has always been the case with moderation, it is kept private.

There's no Dakka-dollars though, this is a job purely done out of love for the forums.



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






Well, thank you for the info. Much appreciated.
   
Made in ca
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

I'd like to second that - this thread has been very helpful, and spurred quite a lot of discussion in the mod forum and some action already. We appreciate the feedback!

Regarding the coronavirus thread, it unfortunately hits all the hot button things we're not Supposed to discuss (politics, religion, some 'isms) but it's hard to separate obviously. Please be patient with us there, and maybe consider just not reading that thread if it's too aggravating - as honestly other than needing to deal with mod issues I have done. You should definitely be getting your COVID-19 information elsewhere, and we're trying to keep it open, but it seems like a lot of folks are just using it to blow off steam =/. The more the rest of us don't, though, the better, and gives it a better chance of staying open for folks to at least try to discuss things. As always, if something's awry please hit the yellow triangle and a mod will Always look at it, even if no public action is taken.
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I’m seeing a lot of political posts in the Coronavirus thread not being challenged. Is the ban on politics lifted in there? Or is it just the usual ‘depends on who’s saying it’ kind of deal? I’d like to know before I make a post that ends up getting deleted.


At this point there have been so many warnings, the thread would need to be locked. If the thread was locked, it would surely be instantly re-created by someone else since this is a worldwide pandemic. That leaves them to options of either enforcing a de-facto Covid-19 ban in the midst of the biggest story of our lives, basically, or ignoring all but the very worst offenders. I think going with the latter is the best, or at least least worst option, and one I appreciate. To be hoenst I think the mods have been doing a really good job policing the thread.

As someone who can't usually resist responding to flamebait, even the low quality variety (and thus making it worse, like the idiot I am) I have been trying hard to ignore it and just reporting it instead. Since I'm working from home and spending much more time on Dakka than usual, I can tell from the thread other people are usually doing this too, plenty of open challenges to inane arguments just... being ignored. Perhaps this will even make some of us better posters in the long run.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 18:41:45


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






Nice one guys, I'm totally aware that moderating is firstly not easy, and is an absolutely thankless job most of the time.

As referenced above, if it takes a few days to get round to it, then so be it. It's nice to know feedback is listened to, and doubly so from people who quite frankly have more important things on their mind in the current climate.

Stay safe guys.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 18:52:20


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Under the couch

 timetowaste85 wrote:

That said, I am a bit salty that mine got deleted while others were allowed to stay up .

Don't take it personally. It generally just depends on how far the thread has advanced since the original post. If a post didn't really belong, and we see it before too many people respond to it, then it's easy enough to delete it to let the thread stay on track. If it's spawned a bunch of replies and quotes, it can be a lot easier, and potentially less confusing, to just post a' get back on track' reminder in thread if it hasn't already sorted itself out, rather than trying to delete multiple posts that are sometimes entwined through other discussion.


 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





Melbourne

I imagine this suggestion will get knocked down, but i'll throw it up anyway.

Given that a lot of people are now homeridden and Dakka MODS are comparatively so few, could this be the time to promote a few temporary MODS?
I imagine that the Admin team have a list of people either earmarkerd for or at least who are watched for potential future MOD positions. Could not a few of them be given basic powers to help handle things in the OT while this crisis continues?
The ability to prune the branches, but not cut down the tree, so to speak.
It's also my understanding that swapshop/article MODS only have powers over their given domain. If this is the case, maybe expanding their remit (again temporarily) might help ease the strain?

As Brook says, there will always be gaps in MOD coverage, whether it be due to time zones or due to being considered essential or any other reason. I think now would actually be the best time to try out some probationary MODS. If they can handle themselves during a pandemic, then a normal weekday shouldn't be a challenge.

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Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Bringing on a new mod has been one of the things we've discussed - it's a good idea, and we're probably overdue anyway. It's a bit of a process to make it happen, though, and if we bother yakface and legoburner to do it it would probably be permanent

Expanding swapmod powers is something we've considered in the past, although might not help with our current / immediate need coverage gaps quite as much. As a former swapmod myself it's definitely an idea I'm always open to

Thanks for the suggestions! The machine spirits are at work...
   
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Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






We should have a mod appreciation day! Only half-sarcastic.

But seriously, I appreciate you guys. I know I have not been the best behaved at times (though I feel I have at least improved over time) and would not envy having to moderate my own posts. And there are a hell of a lot of people as bad as me...

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






Spoiler:
 Ouze wrote:
At this point there have been so many warnings, the thread would need to be locked. If the thread was locked, it would surely be instantly re-created by someone else since this is a worldwide pandemic. That leaves them to options of either enforcing a de-facto Covid-19 ban in the midst of the biggest story of our lives, basically, or ignoring all but the very worst offenders. I think going with the latter is the best, or at least least worst option, and one I appreciate. To be hoenst I think the mods have been doing a really good job policing the thread.

As someone who can't usually resist responding to flamebait, even the low quality variety (and thus making it worse, like the idiot I am) I have been trying hard to ignore it and just reporting it instead. Since I'm working from home and spending much more time on Dakka than usual, I can tell from the thread other people are usually doing this too, plenty of open challenges to inane arguments just... being ignored. Perhaps this will even make some of us better posters in the long run.


This is true yes. The virus is interwoven with politics, that’s a fact. So I’m fully on board with the ban being lifted, or at least ignored. But past experience has taught me that such a thing might not be evenly applied; that certain posters would be allowed a free reign on the matter whilst others will be cut off at every opportunity. It’s just something I wanted to bring attention to and get some clarification on.

If I sound overly bitter and cynical about this, just know that I’ve a dozen or so such experiences of this in the past. Like rule 1 for example...I’ve been called brain dead, a cultist and an idiot...from a mod. Not for acting out or anything, but just for being on the other side of the argument. And from other posters ‘aligned’ with the mods I’ve been given worse, all of which went completely unchallenged. There’s a reason I’m not a DCM anymore.

But it’s just as greatbigtree says. It’s not a public place, it’s a club.

Also some temp mods might be a good idea. Limited powers, if that’s possible. Like with the ability to remove posts, but not to lock threads or suspend posters. Just a thought.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/04/18 08:50:48


 
   
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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

I had a post deleted in the media section the other day, which mentioned politics, but was about something apolitical, no warning, just gone. I'm not complaining, the powers that be can do as they please, but it seemed unnecessary considering that the post was in no way confrontational, it wasnt even making a point one way or another. If anything it was more about history than politics, but hey ho. subjectivity I guess.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Under the couch

Why would there be a warning that the post was going to be deleted?

To be clear, unless you were also sent a warning, there is no censure in a post being deleted. The post is just removed to allow the thread to continue on track. It's not a big deal.

 
   
 
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