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I love me some Ynnari, but there's an irksome lore issue that keeps poking the back of my mind. Supposedly, harlequins are bound to Cegorach, the laughing god. This is allegedly why they don't have to worry about wearing soul stones or being eaten by Slaanesh; they get yoinked into Cegorach's essence upon death. I've also seen this tie to Cegorach as a source of some of their supernatural exploits (though those could largely be tech/prestidigitation/psychic trickery) and some of their combat prowess; if not their tie to Cegorach, then why do they punch better and move faster than wyches and aspect warriors?

The ynnari are, apparently, all connected to Ynnead in some way. This seems to be how they can benefit from the Whisper (the energy created by death) and thus benefit from ynnari rules like Strength From Death. In Wild Rider, we see Yvraine doing some sort of spiritual (psychic?) awakening by touching each new ynnari initiate. Ynnari seem to be pretty confident that they'll get hoovered up by Yvraine and bound to Ynnead upon death.

And harlequins can be ynnari complete with the Strength From Death rule.

So uh... does this imply that Cegorach and Ynnead have joint custody over a harlequin's soul? Is being a harlequin with Strength From Death sort of like being a champion of chaos marked by multiple gods? Or is this just an example of fluff-crunch disparity?

I think this is slightly bigger than harlequins as all aspect warriors are devotees of khaine and the exarchs are priests of khaine... Of course, khaine is so fragmented that he doesn't have as much power as cegorach and can't protect souls the same way (although you could argue the young king sacrifice is actually sending their soul to join khaine in the same way cegorach gets the souls of harlequins).

I have no idea what GW considers the 'truth' but I'd like to think that it's an example of a resurgence of the Eldar pantheonistic religious observance.

Unlike chaos gods the Eldar gods don't require exclusive service.

The Eldar only had 2 gods left they could in any way interact with or dedicate themselves to, so not much pantheonism.

But now they can follow 3 gods.

Eldar gods being less "jealous" is a good point. The visarch takes crud from non-ynnari exarchs for "turning his back on Khaine," but that's probably more to do with him no longer being an exarch than with him serving Ynnead.

Still, it seems a little odd. I always got the impression that being empowered by a god in 40k meant resonating with them on some level. Solitaires resonate with Slaanesh so much that they get slurped up by her instead of Cegorach much of the time. Chaos characters tend to resonate with whatever god "favors" them. Not a lot of khorne-worshipping magicians or hedonists. Not a lot of nurgle-touched that are super into good hygiene. And being an exarch, by definition, involves being utterly obsessed with war.

On the other hand, characters like Belakor and Abaddon show that it's entirely possible to get boons from multiple gods at once, so maybe ynnari harlies and exarchs really are an example of the eldar pantheon being more willing to do that sort of thing.

It's definitely odd and it's part of a long line of post 2nd Eldar background that imo is subpar and contradictory (my dislike of of the autarch sits here, as imo it is contradictory to the path system and the way becoming fixed to a path works).

It's most likely a problem because GW didn't want to invest in creating a unique faction, so just cheaped out and wrote an Allied force instead. If they were a new marine chapter they'd get an entire range of unique units to justify their existence.

Imo an exarch shouldn't be able to leave their exarchy - it's the point of being an exarchy.

An exarch that somehow goes to ynnead should not be able to use their exarch powers, nor should any of the aspects.

This is why I was hoping they'd turn the plastic banshees into a dual kit, banshees and a ynnari version that is distinctly different rather than just a different paint job.


None of these things would have been a problem if GW put the same effort into xenos armies as they do marine chapters. But because they don't you end up with half baked ideas that don't have enough resources to properly flesh them out.

Hellebore wrote:
It's definitely odd and it's part of a long line of post 2nd Eldar background that imo is subpar and contradictory (my dislike of of the autarch sits here, as imo it is contradictory to the path system and the way becoming fixed to a path works).

It's most likely a problem because GW didn't want to invest in creating a unique faction, so just cheaped out and wrote an Allied force instead. If they were a new marine chapter they'd get an entire range of unique units to justify their existence.

To be fair, I do kind of dig the allied force angle. I really get into the whole rivals putting aside their differences in the face of a common cause thing. They're united in their fear, desperation, and their hope. They're abandoning the relative safety of the depressing status quo for a chance at a better future, with the harlequin efforts to unite the species finally bearing some fruit.

But you're not wrong. I feel like there's a lot of confusion and waffling regarding what to do with the ynnari. You could absolutely go through and change how units work, lump models together into new ynnari units, swap out exarch powers for ynnari-specific benefits, etc. But that's a fair bit of effort for a faction that GW seemed reluctant to even release a codex for.

Also, I strongly suspect that Yvraine was originally written to be Malys, maneuvered into becoming the priest of Ynnead by Cegorach. It would explain her fan (now written to be a token from Malys) and would add to the antagonism between Vect and the ynnari. I could even see the visarch originally being written as a rez'd Yriel. But instead we got the craftworlder-turned-aspect warrior-turned-seer-turned-corsair-turned-wych who also probably spent a Summer hanging out with exodites so that she could be a more universal figure head. (She doesn't have the Walker of Many Paths warlord trait, by the way.)

Imo an exarch shouldn't be able to leave their exarchy - it's the point of being an exarchy.

An exarch that somehow goes to ynnead should not be able to use their exarch powers, nor should any of the aspects.

To be fair, the visarch ceasing to be an exarch seems to be both extremely rare and a big deal. I'm okay with it for the same reason I'm okay with the ynnari being hopeful; 40k being grimdark is great, but darkness without a little light and hope is just monotonous. In Path of the Warrior, I found myself rooting for an exarchified character to somehow regain his individuality. The visarch seems to be an example where a character actually managed to do that. If we suddenly had exarchs regaining their individuality left and right, that would probably be lame, but I'm okay with there being one edge case that managed to pull it off.

I've got mixed feelings about ynnari exarchs working differently from craftworlders. We were just talking about how being marked by multiple eldar gods seems to be doable. It doesn't seem unreasonable that an exarch, obsessed with war, might also want to wage war for a brighter future. What exarch doesn't like the idea of engaging in a battle that might actually see the destruction of their specie's greatest enemy? Hanging out with the servants of ynnead doesn't seem like it should diminish their exarchyness. Exarch powers seem to be a combination of training and subtle or not-so-subtle manifestations of the exarch's psychic abilities channeled in an almost orky fashion. Meditating on the concepts associated with Kurnous and the scorpion aspect of Khaine might allow an exarch to wreathe his squad's movements in shadow, but I see that as just being a sort of... meditative focus for psychic powers; it's not Khaine handing down D&D cleric powers and then taking them away when the exarch starts hanging out with Ynnead.

This is why I was hoping they'd turn the plastic banshees into a dual kit, banshees and a ynnari version that is distinctly different rather than just a different paint job.

They even hinted that that's what they were doing when they teased the new banshee models. :( Despite what I just said above, slowly adding ynnari options to other units would be a pretty okay way to expand the ynnari line.

Personally I tell myself that they still go to Cegorach and Ynnead is part of a big joke by Cegorach and they Ynnari are just side victims.

Wyldhunt wrote:

To be fair, the visarch ceasing to be an exarch seems to be both extremely rare and a big deal. I'm okay with it for the same reason I'm okay with the ynnari being hopeful; 40k being grimdark is great, but darkness without a little light and hope is just monotonous. In Path of the Warrior, I found myself rooting for an exarchified character to somehow regain his individuality. The visarch seems to be an example where a character actually managed to do that. If we suddenly had exarchs regaining their individuality left and right, that would probably be lame, but I'm okay with there being one edge case that managed to pull it off.

I've got mixed feelings about ynnari exarchs working differently from craftworlders. We were just talking about how being marked by multiple eldar gods seems to be doable. It doesn't seem unreasonable that an exarch, obsessed with war, might also want to wage war for a brighter future. What exarch doesn't like the idea of engaging in a battle that might actually see the destruction of their specie's greatest enemy? Hanging out with the servants of ynnead doesn't seem like it should diminish their exarchyness. Exarch powers seem to be a combination of training and subtle or not-so-subtle manifestations of the exarch's psychic abilities channeled in an almost orky fashion. Meditating on the concepts associated with Kurnous and the scorpion aspect of Khaine might allow an exarch to wreathe his squad's movements in shadow, but I see that as just being a sort of... meditative focus for psychic powers; it's not Khaine handing down D&D cleric powers and then taking them away when the exarch starts hanging out with Ynnead.

While I think it's possible for pantheonism to return, I don't think it works for Aspects or Exarchs especially, as they are deliberately dedicated to a single god. Exarchs are priests of Khaine and tend Khaine's shrines. They can absolutely acknowledge the existence of other gods in the same way vestal virgins acknowledged Zeus et al, but they aren't going to be worshipping in their church. In 40k it's like chaos undivided and noise marines. Noise marines acknowledge the other chaos gods but they're devoted to only one.

So it's totally possible for a new 'Way of ynnead' to appear, that has people build their life around a pantheon, but any warriors that follow this new way wouldn't be aspect warriors and exarchs (or 'path fallen' eldar) wouldn't exist because there isn't a path.

Which is why I don't like the mishmash of allied units and why I think they should have build unique units out of the plastic aspects.

An eldar pantheon warrior could be a very cool concept, but a devotee of khaine following Ynnead using the abilities of Khaine seems nonsensical to me.

Hellebore wrote:

While I think it's possible for pantheonism to return, I don't think it works for Aspects or Exarchs especially, as they are deliberately dedicated to a single god. Exarchs are priests of Khaine and tend Khaine's shrines. They can absolutely acknowledge the existence of other gods in the same way vestal virgins acknowledged Zeus et al, but they aren't going to be worshipping in their church. In 40k it's like chaos undivided and noise marines. Noise marines acknowledge the other chaos gods but they're devoted to only one.

So it's totally possible for a new 'Way of ynnead' to appear, that has people build their life around a pantheon, but any warriors that follow this new way wouldn't be aspect warriors and exarchs (or 'path fallen' eldar) wouldn't exist because there isn't a path.

Which is why I don't like the mishmash of allied units and why I think they should have build unique units out of the plastic aspects.

An eldar pantheon warrior could be a very cool concept, but a devotee of khaine following Ynnead using the abilities of Khaine seems nonsensical to me.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this one, Hellebore. The eldar don't seem to "worship" their gods exactly.

I think it was Gav Thorpe in a Wild Rider interview that pointed out that the eldar have a long history not getting along with gods. Khaine wanted to genocide them once upon a time. Asuryan cut them off from their god mom. The Morai-Heg is basically the goddess of crummy ends. Slaanesh did... that whole thing. Even Cegorach *probably* played a mean trick on them from time to time.

So while exarchs are canonically referred to as "priests of Khaine," I don't think of them as "devout worshippers." The gods seem to be more like manifestations of the eldar pscyhe and culture. Khaine is their bloodlust. Ynnead is death but also rebirth (and I'd argue hope). An exarch is absolutely obsessed with the bloody arts, but that doesn't mean he can't still have an appreciation for the hope represented by Ynnead. Heck, I'd argue that aspect warriors represent a sort of fusion between the bloodlust of Khaine and the discipline/balance represented by Asuryan. Plus, Karandras is noted for reforming the scorpion path to include the patience of the hunter (Kurnous).

Basically, I don't see following Ynnead (or Ynnead + any other hypothetically rez'd gods) as being mutually exclusive with the path system. You can seek to compartmentalize your psyche to keep Slaanesh from nomming on you even while also looking for a magic goddess's fingernail so that one god can beat up another. You can argue that Eldrad, Jain Zar, and Iyanna Arienell are all examples of this, although they're tricky examples as they've all fallen to their own respective paths.

I also don't think that being an exarch means that you'll refuse to further the goals of a god other than Khaine. From what I've seen, exarchs aren't like... revering Khaine and trying to push his spirit world agendas or anything (obviously; he's stuck in statue form at present.) It's easy for me to picture an exarch joining the ynnari because he wants to fight and likes the idea of sticking it to Slaanesh.

As the aspects are specifically described as aspects of Khaine and the exarchs are the priests of khaine, I'm not sure what wiggle room there is.

The Ynnari aren't just an eldar fighting force, they're the equivalent of harlequins - they get special powers bestowed on them by the god they follow. The strength from death ability comes directly from their connection to Ynnead.

If you didn't need to be pledged in some substantial way to Ynnead for this to happen, then all eldar would be receiving this ability whether they wanted it or not.

Similarly, Khaine's aspects channel Khaine's fury and the exarchs represent Khaine and literally tend his shrines. They are the priests of khaine.

Just as Yvraine shouldn't get exarch powers (and the Visarch doesn't have any anymore) because she's the high priest of Ynnead, so to should exarchs not get powers from Khaine if they now follow Ynnead in a way that grants them special Ynnead powers.


This is all internally consistent - if non-ynari can't get power from death, but must be pledged to Ynnead, then the same logic is self evident for those followers of Khaine.

You start running into exceptionalism to try and get them to connect in other ways.

To reiterate, 40k defines acceptance of gods and worship of them as very different - the grey knights know Khorne exists, but they aren't affected by khorne the way a world eater is.

The aspect warriors learn and train inside shrines to khaine, they learn to fight in one of the aspects of khaine (literally acting as one version of khaine on the battlefield) and their teachers are literally Khaine's priests. They perform a blood sacrifice ceremony to summon a daemon of Khaine to fight for them...

Yvraine is the high priest, exarchs are priests. The visarch was a priest of khaine and is now a devote follower of Ynnead, tradining in his (dire avenger?) Khaine warrior powers for special ynnead-provided power through death abilities.

It's pretty clear that you need a specific kind of relationship to specific gods to get a) exarch powers, b)Ynnari powers and c)Harlequin soul protection powers.

So from where I'm standing. I'm not saying anything different to what the harlequin and Ynnari forces say themselves. The main difference being that craftworlds aren't all devote followers of Khaine.



Your alternative is that an eldar can become a Ynnari/Harlequin/Khainite and get exarch powers, sweet harlequin skills and power from death all at once. Acknowledging a pantheon isn't the same as choosing to actively pledge yourself to a specific god from said pantheon. I'm not sure what this would say about slannesh either.


Your original querry was about Harlequins and I'm applying that same logic to Aspect warriors. Maybe it's because they aren't their own monogod faction that float around that it's not obvious. But it seems pretty much the same. Corsairs, craftworlders and kabalites get no powers from eldar gods because they don't pledge themselves. I think the biggest different between eldar gods and chaos is that you can unpledge yourself if you want - aspect warriors aren't stuck being with khaine, kabalites can become craftworlders and join an aspect and harlequins can renounce their position (doesn't happen often but they do leave). Only people like great harlequins and exarchs seem to be 'path lost' and given themselves over to their god wholly. Which is why I'm not a fan of the idea the Visarch can exist.

When I think of a pantheonist eldar warrior, I think of one that venerates all the gods but doesn't follow one exclusively. A craftworlder is a 'lapsed catholic' in this regard. But I don't think that means they should get all the powers of each god or eldar armies end up full of Abaddons (individuals powered by multiple gods). to use that analogy, we're basically talking about "Eldar Undivided" vs individual worship of Khaine, Cegorach, Ynnead, Isha (the only eldar gods in any 'living' state currently).

An eldar undivided might be granted small boons from each god, but only those who pledged themselves to a single god get the mega powers of that god. The Ynnari are not eldar undivided but rather a Ynnead mono-god force.


I think an eldar undivided force would be pretty cool conceptually and monogod forces fighting alongside would also be cool. But I don't think that you can be both.

Is strength from death actually confirmed as coming directly from Ynnead's blessing? Or could it be a learned skill using an Eldar's innate psychic potential?

Dark Eldar for example consume pain/souls which would seem to be interaction with the warp at a basic level since souls are warp energy in the 40K universe, despite not being psykers and not worshipping any gods. This ability can be picked up by those that become Dark Eldar, as in the Andy Chambers Dark Eldar trilogy there is a character that was born an Exodite but had become a Dark Eldar, experiencing the soul drain and also learning how to top up his soul.

The strength from death ability could be a similar quasi-psychic ability like the Dark Eldar feeding ability, one which Yvraine might have discovered and taught to others, much as how Asurmen seems to have discovered the mental techniques that form the Path system.

Hellebore wrote:
It's definitely odd and it's part of a long line of post 2nd Eldar background that imo is subpar and contradictory (my dislike of of the autarch sits here, as imo it is contradictory to the path system and the way becoming fixed to a path works).

It's most likely a problem because GW didn't want to invest in creating a unique faction, so just cheaped out and wrote an Allied force instead. If they were a new marine chapter they'd get an entire range of unique units to justify their existence.

Imo an exarch shouldn't be able to leave their exarchy - it's the point of being an exarchy.

An exarch that somehow goes to ynnead should not be able to use their exarch powers, nor should any of the aspects.

This is why I was hoping they'd turn the plastic banshees into a dual kit, banshees and a ynnari version that is distinctly different rather than just a different paint job.


None of these things would have been a problem if GW put the same effort into xenos armies as they do marine chapters. But because they don't you end up with half baked ideas that don't have enough resources to properly flesh them out.

I think that GW has at least a 5 year timeline on the Ynarri storyline; I think that much of what you want will happen int the next campaign, and the campaign after that. I think that Ynarri will get their own unique Aspect that builds upon the strength from death ability eventually, and bespoke units as we go. But I think they very deliberately set out to go slow-hand on this; they want to create an underground cult feel that will assist the army as it grows. You know, as a guy who scratch-built a GSC limo and a cult army from White Dwarf, I can tell you how much more it meant to hold the GSC dex in my hand at long last.

Now I'm not saying they're going to make you wait 30 years like they did with GSC, but I think when they make the actually Ynarri army, giving them a minimum of one entry for each battlefield role, it's going to be good, but if you're the person who played Ynarri since the days when it was just 3 characters plus whatever you could steal from other factions, it's going to be great.

Just like GSC did. Just like SoB did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
It's definitely odd and it's part of a long line of post 2nd Eldar background that imo is subpar and contradictory (my dislike of of the autarch sits here, as imo it is contradictory to the path system and the way becoming fixed to a path works).

It's most likely a problem because GW didn't want to invest in creating a unique faction, so just cheaped out and wrote an Allied force instead. If they were a new marine chapter they'd get an entire range of unique units to justify their existence.

Imo an exarch shouldn't be able to leave their exarchy - it's the point of being an exarchy.

An exarch that somehow goes to ynnead should not be able to use their exarch powers, nor should any of the aspects.

This is why I was hoping they'd turn the plastic banshees into a dual kit, banshees and a ynnari version that is distinctly different rather than just a different paint job.


None of these things would have been a problem if GW put the same effort into xenos armies as they do marine chapters. But because they don't you end up with half baked ideas that don't have enough resources to properly flesh them out.

I think that GW has at least a 5 year timeframe on the Ynarri storyline; I think that much of what you want will happen in the next campaign, and the campaign after that. I think that Ynarri will get their own unique Aspect that builds upon the strength from death ability eventually, and bespoke units as we go. But I think they very deliberately set out to go slow-hand on this; they want to create an underground cult feel that will assist the army as it grows. You know, as a guy who scratch-built a GSC limo and a cult army from White Dwarf, I can tell you how much more it meant to hold the GSC dex in my hand at long last.

Now I'm not saying they're going to make you wait 30 years like they did with GSC, but I think when they make the actually Ynarri army, giving them a minimum of one entry for each battlefield role, it's going to be good, but if you're the person who played Ynarri since the days when it was just 3 characters plus whatever you could steal from other factions, it's going to be great.

Just like GSC did. Just like SoB did.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
It's definitely odd and it's part of a long line of post 2nd Eldar background that imo is subpar and contradictory (my dislike of of the autarch sits here, as imo it is contradictory to the path system and the way becoming fixed to a path works).

It's most likely a problem because GW didn't want to invest in creating a unique faction, so just cheaped out and wrote an Allied force instead. If they were a new marine chapter they'd get an entire range of unique units to justify their existence.

Imo an exarch shouldn't be able to leave their exarchy - it's the point of being an exarchy.

An exarch that somehow goes to ynnead should not be able to use their exarch powers, nor should any of the aspects.

This is why I was hoping they'd turn the plastic banshees into a dual kit, banshees and a ynnari version that is distinctly different rather than just a different paint job.


None of these things would have been a problem if GW put the same effort into xenos armies as they do marine chapters. But because they don't you end up with half baked ideas that don't have enough resources to properly flesh them out.

I think that GW has at least a 5 year timeline on the Ynarri storyline; I think that much of what you want will happen int the next campaign, and the campaign after that. I think that Ynarri will get their own unique Aspect that builds upon the strength from death ability eventually, and bespoke units as we go. But I think they very deliberately set out to go slow-hand on this; they want to create an underground cult feel that will assist the army as it grows. You know, as a guy who scratch-built a GSC limo and a cult army from White Dwarf, I can tell you how much more it meant to hold the GSC dex in my hand at long last.

Now I'm not saying they're going to make you wait 30 years like they did with GSC, but I think when they make the actually Ynarri army, giving them a minimum of one entry for each battlefield role, it's going to be good, but if you're the person who played Ynarri since the days when it was just 3 characters plus whatever you could steal from other factions, it's going to be great.

Just like GSC did. Just like SoB did.

I do get that the wait is frustrating. It always is; if it wasn't, the reward wouldn't be as sweet.

BTW, how do I get this thing to not "Auto append" when I edit? I can't seem to turn it off.

@PenitentJake, That would be very nice if it turned out to be true. I'd been hoping for a cult army since I got the 2nd ed starter box with the black army list booklet, because genestealers are the coolest part of the tyranids for me.

Iracundus wrote:
Is strength from death actually confirmed as coming directly from Ynnead's blessing? Or could it be a learned skill using an Eldar's innate psychic potential?

Dark Eldar for example consume pain/souls which would seem to be interaction with the warp at a basic level since souls are warp energy in the 40K universe, despite not being psykers and not worshipping any gods. This ability can be picked up by those that become Dark Eldar, as in the Andy Chambers Dark Eldar trilogy there is a character that was born an Exodite but had become a Dark Eldar, experiencing the soul drain and also learning how to top up his soul.

The strength from death ability could be a similar quasi-psychic ability like the Dark Eldar feeding ability, one which Yvraine might have discovered and taught to others, much as how Asurmen seems to have discovered the mental techniques that form the Path system.

It's possible, but in doing so it kind of undermines the importance of Ynnead and the need to follow him?

If all of these abilities are tied to innate eldar ability and not to gods and therefore not exclusive, then any eldar can develop these skills (exarch skills, harlequin skills, cegorach skils) without needing to acknowledge those gods at all.

That makes for a pretty crazy OTT corsair raiding force of deah powered clown exarchs, but it IMO takes away from what's already there. The sacrifice and the price of falling to a path is power (in the same way chaos champions/primarchs gain power at the cost of their damnation) - exarchs and farseers are doomed to stay on their path, but in doing so unlock abilities and powers not possible outside that context.

If you change the underlying assumption, then they look like idiots that got addicted for no reason. Why would craftworlds let Khaine addicts teach khaine school if you could get a sane person to do it? Autarchs could be teaching those classes because they've apparently mastered them all anyway.

This is my main problem with modern eldar background development, the original stuff was pretty complete - it was logically consistent and interconnected. You didn't need to add anything to explain things. So any additions look very obviously bolted on and have to pry open previously closed loops to fit new things. the autarch being a prime example of the closed aspect warrior-shrine-exarch loop of the Warrior Path.

Now I'm not saying that the eldar can't develop neat fighting skills without a path, they did that for the entirety of their history before the fall and the DE, corsairs, harlequins and Exodites still do it today. But it makes the path of the warrior pretty meaningless and the concept of an exarch pretty stupid if nothing about them is actually due to their obsession with the path.

It makes the phoenix lords look like neckbeard edgelords that started cults of the beta tape in some dark recess of the internet, all the while everyone around them were using digital formats going 'why so obsessed with obsolete tech bro?'.

From my perspective, the Path system and the path of the warrior specifically (because wargame) are highly important parts of the eldar identity and they should be preserved and improved and made more prominent, not pushed to the shadows by the new hotness that by its existence makes them pointless.

Strength from death could be a secret of the Ynnari mystery cult, revealed only to those that have pledged themselves to Ynnead (but still a developed skill rather than a direct hand me down blessing from Ynnead).

If one thinks about it, the ability is quite similar to the Dark Eldar feeding ability. Both essentially revolved around sucking in ambient psychic energy released by death or great pain and using that to heal or boost one's physical abilities. The main difference seems to be the Dark Eldar ability seems to be more instinctual, though perhaps that is because their souls are suffering drain so they may instinctively reach out to top up their diminishing soul. Maybe doing so when one's soul is intact is harder or less of an instinctive move. It is also quite possible one reason why some Eldar view the Ynnari with distrust or distaste is because their ability is too close to the Dark Eldar's abhorrent feeding.

Exarch abilities are not derived from the Path in and of itself, but rather from the fact Exarchs have a pool of energy in a miniature Infinity Circuit inside their suit. This pool of psychic energy is what allows them to achieve increasingly supernatural abilities, with the Phoenix Lords being just more extreme versions. Since none of the other branches of the Eldar have walking collections of spirit stones, only the Craftworlders have Exarchs and their associated abilities. Autarchs don't have that collection of psychic energy so that is also why they don't have Exarch abilities.

The purpose of the Path is not for power or developing fighting skills per se but to be able to do so without falling prey to mental excesses. Training by an Exarch is what allowed normal Eldar to go from the (original) baseline WS 3 of Guardians to WS 4 Aspect Warrior, and to be able to do so without risking their souls. Dark Eldar spit on all that restraint and discipline and achieve WS 4 but at the price of their lack of protection leading to them to suffer soul draining.

Pledging to Ynnead or Cegorach provide that metaphysical safety net, so they can develop their skills and unleash their potential without spiritual risk. The old guard Craftworlders would probably view the new Ynnari with distrust as yes it does threaten to devalue the discipline of the Path system. Why work to achieve inner control and discipline when you can just pledge fealty to Ynnari and rest assured that you will be saved?

Corsairs and Outcasts have none of these safety nets and don't seem to have the Dark Eldar feeding ability. They are free but with all the spiritual dangers that entails, though this isn't directly reflected in 40K scale rules. I don't see an over the top Corsair scenario for the simple reason that those techniques and skills are achieved only with proven loyalty and prolonged dedication to a cause. For example, one might not get the full harlequin training until one has successfully pledged one's soul to Cegorach and after that, well there's no going back to being a Corsair.

In summary, the Path system, Ynnead, Cegorach, feeding from pain, are all means to shield the Eldar from the consequences of unleashing (or retaining) different facets of their pre-Fall potential. The Craftworlders kept their psychic potential (which indirectly includes the psychic Exarch abilities). The Dark Eldar kept their physical potential. Ynnari and Harlequins seem to keep both at the cost of pledging themselves to a deity. The strength from death ability can be seen as one expression of that potential, perhaps a learned one as part of the Ynnari cult's mysteries. I don't see why having it as an ability (rather than direct blessing) necessarily devalues pledging to Ynnead or the Path system.

I don't think Strength From Death is the sort of thing that you have access to after taking a training seminar. Based on the ynnari novels, it seems like ynnari initiates are drawn to the ynnari because they can already hear the Whisper (the energy of dead souls associated with Ynnead), and their awareness of the Whisper grows once Yvraine touches them and sort of... "marks" them as ynnari.

Apparently ynnari pilots rely on the Whisper to pilot their vehicles and have real trouble doing so if cut off from the Whisper. So it's a very potent, tangible thing.

I've never seen exarch powers as being the result of having multiple souls in their suits (although it does make sense that that could help). Instead, I've always seen exarch powers as the result of an aeldari mind fixating on a certain conceptual aspect of war (an aspect of the eldar psyche) to such an extent that their latent psychic power can "leak out" using that fixation as a sort of framework.

So a fire dragon exarch can (apparently) literally set his fists on fire to do fire punches. This isn't the god Khaine reaching out to bestow a chaos style blessing, and it's not just something that happens when you plug enough spirit stones into an exarch suit; it's the result of the exarch meditating on the concept and metaphor of fire and then working those concepts into his martial arts until there's enough thematic sympathy between the two for his psychic abilities to turn metaphor into reality.

So to me, a ynnari exarch with exarch powers is internally consistent. The exarch is "marked by Khaine" in the sense that he's fixated on/attuned with a concept (like "fire.") This fixation allows him to manifest exarch powers. The same exarch believes in Ynnead's cause/wants to see Ynnead defeat Slaanesh/ can hear the Whisper.

I don't see anything contradictory in being both fixated on an aspect of Khaine and also being attuned to the souls of the dead.

That said, being an exarch means you're basically a violence-obsessed nutjob, so I don't see most aeldari intentionally trying to become so obsessed with warfare that they can add an exarch power to their repertoire. Even a wych would probably be reluctant to give up enough of her personality and sense of self to achieve that kind of fixation.

I could also see an exarch's level of fixation being incompatible with harlequin...ness. I've always seen Cegorach as being the embodiment of self-awareness (among other things). He's the trickster that teaches humbling lessons by exploiting the flaws in others and bringing them to the surface. I think it would be difficult for an exarch to have that kind of awareness/perspective. Exarchs are basically defined by being consumed by a character flaw.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I don't think Strength From Death is the sort of thing that you have access to after taking a training seminar. Based on the ynnari novels, it seems like ynnari initiates are drawn to the ynnari because they can already hear the Whisper (the energy of dead souls associated with Ynnead), and their awareness of the Whisper grows once Yvraine touches them and sort of... "marks" them as ynnari.

Apparently ynnari pilots rely on the Whisper to pilot their vehicles and have real trouble doing so if cut off from the Whisper. So it's a very potent, tangible thing.

The Ynnari background is a bit inconsistent and vague as to what the Whisper is. Yes obviously it can be Ynnead. However the WD article on Yvraine originally said one reason why they are so deadly is because they seem to be living Infinity Circuits and allow mini-possessions of their bodies during combat so they always have the right skills at hand to deal with an opponent.

I've never seen exarch powers as being the result of having multiple souls in their suits (although it does make sense that that could help). Instead, I've always seen exarch powers as the result of an aeldari mind fixating on a certain conceptual aspect of war (an aspect of the eldar psyche) to such an extent that their latent psychic power can "leak out" using that fixation as a sort of framework.

So a fire dragon exarch can (apparently) literally set his fists on fire to do fire punches. This isn't the god Khaine reaching out to bestow a chaos style blessing, and it's not just something that happens when you plug enough spirit stones into an exarch suit; it's the result of the exarch meditating on the concept and metaphor of fire and then working those concepts into his martial arts until there's enough thematic sympathy between the two for his psychic abilities to turn metaphor into reality.

So to me, a ynnari exarch with exarch powers is internally consistent. The exarch is "marked by Khaine" in the sense that he's fixated on/attuned with a concept (like "fire.") This fixation allows him to manifest exarch powers. The same exarch believes in Ynnead's cause/wants to see Ynnead defeat Slaanesh/ can hear the Whisper.

That said, being an exarch means you're basically a violence-obsessed nutjob, so I don't see most aeldari intentionally trying to become so obsessed with warfare that they can add an exarch power to their repertoire. Even a wych would probably be reluctant to give up enough of her personality and sense of self to achieve that kind of fixation.

The social unacceptability in the Craftworlds of anything like consuming souls is why I would think the strength from death would be viewed with disgust or distaste by those that don't believe in the Ynnari. It would be too close to the Dark Eldar practices.

I could also see an exarch's level of fixation being incompatible with harlequin...ness. I've always seen Cegorach as being the embodiment of self-awareness (among other things). He's the trickster that teaches humbling lessons by exploiting the flaws in others and bringing them to the surface. I think it would be difficult for an exarch to have that kind of awareness/perspective. Exarchs are basically defined by being consumed by a character flaw.

Harlequins are not necessarily self-aware.

As this mania has overtaken them, so the Players of the Midnight Sorrow have become trapped within their roles. All Harlequins sacrifice a portion of their personality to the character they play, but most retain at least a spark of the being who came before, even if only in the interpretation they bring to their role.

p. 18, 8th edition Harlequin Codex

However it happens, once an Aeldari becomes a Harlequin every aspect of their old identity is erased. Each joins a Light, Twilight, or Dark Troupe, and assumes a new role at the behest of their Troupe Master. THese roles - each known by a ritual character name such as the Webway Witch, the Sun Prince, or Shaimesh the Poisoner - inform every facet of the Harlequin's personality from that moment on. Just as the Aeldari of the craftworlds funnel every aspect of their psyche into a single discipline - or 'Path' - so the Harlequins turn their minds absolutely into playing their allotted role. No matter who they were in their former life, a Harlequin's character becomes their moral compass and their adopted 'true' self.

p. 35, 8th edition Harlequin Codex

It is method acting taken to the ultimate extreme. The old identity is subsumed and exists only maybe as an interpretation of their character role. How can Harlequins demonstrate self-awareness when the old self is no longer there?

I think the evidence is there that there's a fundamental connection to Khaine through the warrior path and exarchs as their priests.

It may not literally be khaine bestowing chaos gifts, but there's a tangible link between them.

Eldar lost to the path are all exarchs of their chosen path - farseers, bonesingers (the singers of whatever they were called), anyone can technically be lost to a path.

The distinction with an exarch is that they're lost to a path that is somewhat templarian, in that it's tied intimately to a specific god and literally taking on a specific aspect of that god's mythological war aspects.

The shrines of the aspect warriors are not unlike harlequins in this regard, as they are dedicated to acting out the various aspects of Khaine's rage and fighting methods.

You could argue that the aspects are MORE tied to their god than the Harlequins, because only one harlequin role (the great harlequin) actually represents cegorach specifically. All the other roles represent various people from myth.

the aspects meanwhile actually take on a specific aspect of khaine, they walk into battle wearing a war mask in the shape of a specific incarnation of their war god. So if harlequins are considered godcentric, you can hardly claim aspects aren't when their existence is more intimately tied to a god.

I'm imagining atheists in churches delivering sermons...

We know that the more souls in something the more powerful it becomes, and the eldar use souls a lot. The background says that the soul battery of an exarch's suit is what powers their abilities.

But those abilities themselves are specifically enacting ritual concepts of the war god, because each shrine is a philosophy around a specific aspect of the eldar war god, not a specific weapon. Dire avengers are khaine as an avenger and the philosophy around this is a bit deeper than 'shuriken catapults and swords'.

Similarly the dark reapers emulate khaine as the destroyer, bringing total destruction to their foes. But there's no straight line between 'destroyer' and 'reaper launcher'. This philosophy would permeate their entire identity, down to how they punch people...destroyingly (likely heavier precise hits over fast lighter ones that swooping hawks might use).

Now we also know that ynnari aspects don't have to put on their war mask anymore and they even put ynarri bare heads on the banshee sprue for this purpose.

It seems to me, that the war mask, as literally putting on one of the faces of khaine for war, kind of ties you to him a little more than just traditionally.

I've got nothing against the idea of ynarri aspect equivalents or aspect warriors conceptually, I just don't think they should literally be Khaine aspect warriors but some how Ynnead ones.

Although, I don't really think you'd see aspects of death, as it's all pretty final.

If the eldar moved past the need for a path system it wouldn't necessarily do away with path obsessees though. So you'd have free warriors not bound by the path and you'd have those old exarchs still totally bound to it.

If GW had bothered to put more effort into the ynarri and created an entirely unique army without exarch overlap I doubt we'd be having the inverse of this discussion - we wouldn't be dissecting whether exarchs and aspects should exist in ynarri armies rather than their unique army units created for them.

Polytheistic pantheon worship means there need not be exclusivity. Therefore Aspect Warriors could still fight for Ynnari while simultaneously paying homage to Khaine through the rituals associated with their shrine and the symbolic act of donning the mask of their Aspect.

Iracundus wrote:
Polytheistic pantheon worship means there need not be exclusivity. Therefore Aspect Warriors could still fight for Ynnari while simultaneously paying homage to Khaine through the rituals associated with their shrine and the symbolic act of donning the mask of their Aspect.

Absolutely, but there's a very big difference in a world where active worship generates warp weirdness and psychic resonance. Hence in my earlier posts the distinction between acknowledgement of gods and actually following them.

All chaos is a pantheon, but berserkers don't get any tzeentchian effects just because they accept this. While a black legionnaire doesn't worship any particular god and accepts them all as a pantheon.

The evidence to me says that Ynnead's affects on the eldar must either happen whether the eldar worship/follow/revere him or not, or that the following of an eldar god is a particular thing separate from acknowledging them all.

Going back to the chaos analogy, berserkers and thousand sons can still fight alongside each other for the same goal, a black legionnaire can fight alongside either of those forces and not become a follower of those gods. So of course the aspects of khaine can fight alongside the ynnari and fight to fulfill their goals, because (in this case) unlike the chaos pantheon, the eldar one isn't totally antagonistic - although having said that khaine is super jealous of the other gods so I'm not actually sure now, depending on how much influence Khaine has on the psyche of the aspects (the avatar certainly does and as they get ready for war the bloodthirst becomes stronger so there's definitely some tangible connection).

But that's not the same thing as a follower of one god also following another in a way that grants them power to the connection to both. I come back to the the eldar who, by following their pantheon become exarch/harlequin/ynnari powered warriors, as to why I don't think that's possible.

Hellebore wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Polytheistic pantheon worship means there need not be exclusivity. Therefore Aspect Warriors could still fight for Ynnari while simultaneously paying homage to Khaine through the rituals associated with their shrine and the symbolic act of donning the mask of their Aspect.

Absolutely, but there's a very big difference in a world where active worship generates warp weirdness and psychic resonance. Hence in my earlier posts the distinction between acknowledgement of gods and actually following them.

All chaos is a pantheon, but berserkers don't get any tzeentchian effects just because they accept this. While a black legionnaire doesn't worship any particular god and accepts them all as a pantheon.

The evidence to me says that Ynnead's affects on the eldar must either happen whether the eldar worship/follow/revere him or not, or that the following of an eldar god is a particular thing separate from acknowledging them all.

Going back to the chaos analogy, berserkers and thousand sons can still fight alongside each other for the same goal, a black legionnaire can fight alongside either of those forces and not become a follower of those gods. So of course the aspects of khaine can fight alongside the ynnari and fight to fulfill their goals, because (in this case) unlike the chaos pantheon, the eldar one isn't totally antagonistic - although having said that khaine is super jealous of the other gods so I'm not actually sure now, depending on how much influence Khaine has on the psyche of the aspects (the avatar certainly does and as they get ready for war the bloodthirst becomes stronger so there's definitely some tangible connection).

But that's not the same thing as a follower of one god also following another in a way that grants them power to the connection to both. I come back to the the eldar who, by following their pantheon become exarch/harlequin/ynnari powered warriors, as to why I don't think that's possible.

Though the Avatar of Khaine might heighten the bloodlust that is there, as a fractured being there doesn't seem to be a sense that it has Khaine's sense of self, personality, or intelligence. There certainly is no indication that the Avatar has any long term plans. Though the Craftworld Eldar pay homage through ritual, it is more of a transactional affair. They use the Avatar for battle and to heighten their own bloodlust, and the Aspects of Khaine as a psychological focus to channel their bloodlust in a controlled fashion. The Aspect Warriors aren't really "followers of Khaine" in the sense that a Berzerker is pledged to Khorne now and forever.

I don't see why the Ynnari strength from death ability necessarily has to be concluded to flow directly from Ynnead, as opposed to say a mystery ability utilizing the innate Eldar psychic potential revealed only to initiates into the Ynnari mystery cult. Just because all Eldar might be capable of it (as all Eldar seem to be theoretically capable of sucking souls like Dark Eldar if they act enough like Dark Eldar) doesn't mean it cannot also be a learned ability. All humans can learn to swim but if swimming were some proprietary information revealed only to special initiates of a cult, then only those cult members would be able to swim. Sure Yvraine's original development of the ability might have been by direct divine inspiration/selection but from there onwards, it might have been passed down from her.

Such a paradigm would resolve the issue of how harlequins get Ynnari powers. Harlequins could learn the ability if they become dedicated towards Ynnari goals. Would a Ynnari initiation undo the Harlequin ritual pledging their souls to Cegorach? Unknown, but what if it didn't? That whole non-exclusivity could be why Cegorach is ok with this. Of course maybe the Harlequins are all going to be doing a big prank on the Ynnari and on Ynnead.

Iracundus wrote:

Though the Avatar of Khaine might heighten the bloodlust that is there, as a fractured being there doesn't seem to be a sense that it has Khaine's sense of self, personality, or intelligence. There certainly is no indication that the Avatar has any long term plans.

Weeeeeell. There's that extended conversion between jain Zar and an avatar in the Jain Zar novels, but that is a bit of an anomally, and we don't exactly have an example of unshattered Khaine to compare its avatar to.

Would a Ynnari initiation undo the Harlequin ritual pledging their souls to Cegorach? Unknown, but what if it didn't? That whole non-exclusivity could be why Cegorach is ok with this.

I think non-exclusivity is the headcanon that makes the most sense to me. If aeldari can be attuned to multiple gods at once (vaguely like Abaddon being attuned to all four chaos gods), then it removes a lot of fluff conflicts. So a ynnari aspect warrior is a ynnari that still leans on the path system to avoid obsession and to utilize his warrior skills. A ynnari exarch is so highly attuned to Khaine that he can use his gestalt spirit to manifest exarch powers, but he's still attuned enough to ynnead to benefit from the Whisper. A ynnari harlequin (ynnarlequin) is attuned enough to Cegorach to do cool backflips and maybe some possibly supernatural trickster stuff, but he's also attuned enough to ynnead to benefit from the Whisper.

That mostly makes sense to me. I can live with that.

Although honestly, I wouldn't mind if a 9th edition incarnation of the ynnari had harlies as allies rather than true ynnari. The ynnari and the harlequins seem to have enough crossover in their objectives to frequently team up, but I'd be fine with GW clarifying that harlies don't hear the Whisper. I'd be alright with taking an allied detachment of clowns next to a detachment of Craftworld Trait: Ynnari and Obsession: Ynnari detachments.