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Hi guys,
First thing first, I'm amazed there are no threads about TLOU or TLOU 2 seeing as TLOU was such a amazing game with deep characters and have so much emotion to so many players.
But back to the present !
Have you seen the leaks ? What do you think about this whole situation?
I have seen them and.. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. I was never too fond of a sequel, but since there is nothing I can do about it, I decided to go for it and looked forward playing and enjoying it !
So many years to wait.. So many possibilities after this final epic last scene of TLOU 1 !
And so, I decided amongst some friends to be The One, the leaks reader.
I did well.
I will not buy this game.
Today, truly, is a sad day. 6 years of expectations ruined.
WARNING: spoilers ahead !
By order of importance (to me):
Spoiler:
First point: Joel's death.
Aliens 3 all over again. When will they learn ?
DO NOT KILL THE ENJOYABLE CHARACTERS OF A MASTERCRAFT AT THE BEGINING OF A SEQUEL
Second point: Abby
Who the feth is she and why would I like to play this unknown character, especially to hunt down and kill my TLOU character,s after having send the whole TLOU 1 to play the duo of Ellie and Joel, after having spent days (years !) caring for them and saving them, after they grew on me ? The most important (the only ?) Element of TLOU was this couple of broken human beings and their redemption and how we come to love them (she is...the daughter of a doctor you kill at the end of TLOU1, who seeks revenge. That's it. Imagine if all the guys that died in TLOU1 were to seek revenge ! Or a game of DOOM where you play as a Baby Deamon looking for revenge against the DOMM GUY for having killed deamon number #2337...
WTF
Point 3: The Last Jedi Effect
Remember the redemption and family themes of TLOU 1 ?
Yeah, you guessed, gone.
The whole meaning and importance of TLOU1 (and apparently its characters as shown above) are of no importance. In fact, we could play TLOU 2 without TLOU 1 and having to discover what happened to Abby's father during the game, it could be interesting, more interesting than the current TLOU 2.
That's crazy.
Point 4: political agenda in video games.
Young me LOVED TLOU 1. I even posted a picture of the DLC on my FB, at that time...
The characters were deep, and ND had strong ideas about their identities and characters, with various identity and differences (the pedo, the strong woman, the broken father, the unsure child...) Without necessarily explaining them directly.
The DLC (that should have been part of the game !) gave us an interesting sight into ELLIE's mind ("Everyone who cared for me either died or left me !") and her sadness, hardship and a good answer to "why is she like this and who is she".
We had a glimpse of what could be romantism in a sweet moment during the apocalypse, to better break her a few minutes later.
This is for TLOU, its subtility and diversity.
Now, TLOU2...we get transitioning trans during the apocalypse (lol) killing Christians while looking for a lesbian couple raising the child they got thanks to the ex bf ... And that's in short.
Why didn't they make a game with some subtile messages instead of making a message with some gameplay ?
Is not Video Kojima whoever wants to be Video Kojima...
Look at Detroit: become human for example. I'm currently playing it again: Connor is a gay icone on the internet, there are lesbian androids, human - android sex, etc.
Totally open minded, totally free. But it's not the point of the game, just part of it.
Look at TLOU 1 ! One of the two main character is a lesbian or a least strongly possible a lesbian (confirmed by now ofc, but at realize time we didn't know).
But that's all, that's not the point of the game. This is the way to take to make good games and to make people think.
Not TLOU2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/30 14:40:53
I guess Naughty Dog is like Bioware now: They have the name, but none of the people that made it great.
Yeah I have to agree, I learnt that on the 20 lead designers that were present in 2014, 14 have left by now. Anna Henning left too, she was a good writer that wrote for TLOU, IIRC
It's so sad. So many things from when I was 15-20 are just not what they were anymore...
I'm still holding out for the faint hope that the majority of the leaks aren't true, but if it is all 100% genuine, it leaves a legit bad taste in my mouth. What a way to ruin a franchise, and it makes me incredibly wary of any other PS titles getting the same treatment. Don't let anybody touch Insomniac or Sucker Punch please.
Yes I guess there is still some hope that these leaks don’t tell the whole story but seems likely. It is amazing to me that these ideas made it so long into the development without someone at ND to ask “why?”
I do agree it is the Last Jedi all over again, making something different just so you can say you did something different.
I also blame GoT a little bit, but won’t go into detail for fear of spoilers.
Lol Jesus the leaked political aspect of this game sounds worse than batwomans commercials mixed with the Gillette commercial. You know back in the day even politics in games and tv came off a little more subtle. This is about as subtle as exterminatus.
Remember in the 1st walking dead video game when humanity was the bigger enemy than the zombies and people had mixtures of good or bad in them and some were awful. I would've thought current day political issues would seem trivial when you are just trying to stay alive in a post apocalyptic world.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/03 12:50:10
Musselman wrote: Yes I guess there is still some hope that these leaks don’t tell the whole story but seems likely. It is amazing to me that these ideas made it so long into the development without someone at ND to ask “why?”
I do agree it is the Last Jedi all over again, making something different just so you can say you did something different.
I also blame GoT a little bit, but won’t go into detail for fear of spoilers.
Actually we do have a reason for people not asking why. According to reports its due to the toxicity during development that anyone who didn't agree was shamed into it by those higher up and that their jobs and careers were on the line for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/03 13:12:31
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 09:05:40
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I haven't looked into the 'agenda' or the 'politics' in the leaks. I don't even want to. I don't care enough to.
I'd already written off Naughty Dog a while back- I've heard nothing good about their practices when it comes to their work environment, so for 3 reasons I won't touch this- even if the story wasn't allegedly 'woke':
1- No developers should be forced into an absurd 'crunch' schedule. Sorry, that's not something that should be okay, and I won't incentivize that kind of workplace.
2- Crunch schedules usually end up creating rushed products with some considerable faults/flaws- so hearing that there was this kind of environment means I'm far less likely to spend money on Naughty Dog.
3- This ridiculously scummy Copyright Striking on Youtube... for videos that aren't even showing footage or anything. No, seriously- at first I was willing to be skeptical about how awful the content of the leaks were- but the Streisand Effect is a real thing and I'm pretty sure the stories are true, just not concerned enough to validate it.
Also, because the lead developer was stupid enough to fall for a certain lady's little swindle, I'm far less likely to give him my money. It's not about her message, it's the fact that only a fool wouldn't see what kinda racket it is- and he deserves financial punishment for being that stupid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 09:12:31
1- No developers should be forced into an absurd 'crunch' schedule. Sorry, that's not something that should be okay, and I won't incentivize that kind of workplace.
2- Crunch schedules usually end up creating rushed products with some considerable faults/flaws- so hearing that there was this kind of environment means I'm far less likely to spend money on Naughty Dog.
is that the approvement of unions i see?
but yeah the actual lack of workers organisation with an easily and readily replaceable workforce has lead to rather bad development cycles and products overall.
I mean some companies call their burnout workers : Stress casualities.
I am sorry but that terminology should only be applicable to a warzone and not Videogame development....
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Lol. Though it happens more than you think. One or two of the big hollywood movie studios got a warning from youtube because the studio marketing channels would keep putting up clips with their legal department would then flag for takedown; which were then contested by the uploader. Over and over again until youtube said enough and told them to sort their departments out.
Violence has consequences. Killing perpetuates killing as each generation seeks revenge for the deaths of the previous.
Remember when Thanos murdered Loki at the beginning of Infinity War and we then followed him through a large portion of that film and learned his reasoning for his actions? Remember when he murdered Gamora and we still followed him through the film? Remember how people liked that film and the character of Thanos?
Just because someone kills someone you care about, doesn't mean that seeing the world through their eyes is a bad thing. Actions have consequences, beyond what may be immediately visible to the audience at the time and switching the perspective through which you interact with the story can be an invaluable tool in highlighting those previously unseen consequences.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/27 10:25:11
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
I am with Doritos 100% on this, the Crunch, the scummy behaviour and being stupid enough to fall for a con artists nonsense long after said con artist has been shown to be a con artist.
Fool me once and all that, also no Amy Hennig involved in any way? no thanks, that is like letting Speilberg go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 14:50:06
Just because someone kills someone you care about, doesn't mean that seeing the world through their eyes is a bad thing. Actions have consequences, beyond what may be immediately visible to the audience at the time and switching the perspective through which you interact with the story can be an invaluable tool in highlighting those previously unseen consequences.
A lot of people were really upset they didn't get to make a choice at the end of the first game because they felt Joel made the wrong one. Any sequel was going to have to address the consequences of that ending. That's a big part of why its a great ending.
@malus: except it wasn't fully the story of thanos. It ended on a cliffhanger. Everything was undone with time travel which at times feels cheap. The sequel brought a lot of people back as well. Ironman and a couple others are gone but their stories were wrapped up.
According to the leaks this new game follows some unknown that kills the main male lead right out the gate. Yes I get your comparison to Loki but thanos was a known big bad and this new person just seems like a nobody. Also thanos is a bad guy and though he had a couple decent moments he was very much a bad guy. How can I empathize with this new lead that kills someone people cared about right out of the gate and possibly the other later?
Maybe people don't like characters they love being disrespected in favor of crappier newer characters.
Also the fact channels got copyright claims for merely talking about the leaks is bs and you know it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 21:45:58
flamingkillamajig wrote: How can I empathize with this new lead that kills someone people cared about right out of the gate and possibly the other later?
Maybe play the game and find out?
Maybe peopile don't like characters they love being disrespected in favor of crappier newer characters.
Ah yes, because the character is new they must be crap. Or wait, they could be great. You have no idea as you haven't played the game and actually experienced the story! And a great character doesn't mean you necessarily have to like them or for them to be the hero.
Killing a character is not disrespectful. That character died as a consequence of the choices they made and that you, as the player, were party to.
For a video game example of this exact scenario, if you played the GTA IV DLC The Lost and Damned then you would be familiar with the character Johnny Klebitz. He's the protagonist of that DLC. He also appears in GTA V where he is killed by having his head stomped in by Trevor in his introductory cutscene, after which you go and do some missions which involve massacring all of the other named characters from that particular DLC.
In other media, Vegeta is responsible for the deaths of Yamcha through his use of Saibamen. He is also partially responsible for the deaths of Piccolo, Chiaotzu and Tien via Nappa. The consequences of this also leads the heroes to Namek where Krillin is killed and the Namek race genocided by Freeza. He also genocides the bug planet he and Nappa land on on their way to Earth on a whim. And he still becomes a beloved character.
Literature is littered with these kinds of perspective shifts, Game of Thrones being an obvious example where villains of previous books become point of view characters of later ones. Jaime Lannister is a prime example of where seeing the world through his eyes and being privy to his internal thoughts is crucial to the reader understanding why he has done the villainous things he has done.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2020/05/27 23:03:33
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
The point is it took time to like vegeta and early on he's very much a bad guy. It takes time to redeem. The opening moments of this game sounds like Joel getting his ****ing brains bashed in and dying. I'll wait for more reputable reviews that won't auto shill esp. For some dakka reviews from friends. I dunno that I'd play it though. A full priced buy is quite the leap of faith for these blaring red flags with sirens attached to them. The copyright strikes have also been a bit insane as I said even when no clips were shown.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 22:59:39
What kind of fool would spend money on a product that already repulses him, just to find out why it specifically repulses him?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flamingkillamajig wrote: Also the fact channels got copyright claims for merely talking about the leaks is bs and you know it.
Uh, you might want to look into that. I'm pretty sure that everything up to and including promotional images that were released to the public were getting copyright strikes.
FFS, the shady little company they hired to copyright strike by proxy even flagged Sony's official page with a video.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/27 23:21:21
With regards to GTA protagonists killing off other GTA protagonists - the dead protagonists can typically be killed before the content that makes them playable is available. To use the GTA4: L&D example, players aren't going to particularly care about the death of that particular protagonist because most players will kill that protagonist long before they actually play the DLC that makes him playable. So far as most players are concerned, he's just another random antagonist.
I have no horse in this particular argument. I didn't play the first game, and I'm not likely to play the second. But I can tell you right now that if I had played the first game, I'd be very unlikely to play the second after learning that the protagonist of the second game murders the protagonist of the first game early on in the sequel. I've got a limited budget to spend on games, and limited time to play them. And I'd rather spend them on something that doesn't feel like the developer mocking me. The claim has been made that it shows the consequences of a bad choice. But there's more than one way to show consequences. And it strikes me that developing a sequel about the protagonist of the first game looking for fedemption after said choice from the first game comes back to bite him would have been a much more effective way of illustrating that particular lesson.
It's like telling someone who isn't attracted to men that they should probably go put some dude's penis in their mouth so they can find out why.
Not particularly helping. There are much better analogies to use, and that particular one strikes me as the sort of thing that invites thread locking.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/27 23:20:23
What kind of fool would spend money on a product that already repulses him, just to find out why it specifically repulses him?
I''m sorry, I didn't realise that the idea of not judging a story until you have actually experienced said story was such an offensive concept to you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eumerin wrote: With regards to GTA protagonists killing off other GTA protagonists - the dead protagonists can typically be killed before the content that makes them playable is available. To use the GTA4: L&D example, players aren't going to particularly care about the death of that particular protagonist because most players will kill that protagonist long before they actually play the DLC that makes him playable. So far as most players are concerned, he's just another random antagonist.
The character died in GTA V and wasn't present in the main GTA IV story so could not be killed there. So there is no chance to kill him prior to his appearance in the DLC unless you played GTA V beforehand.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/27 23:21:21
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: I''m sorry, I didn't realise that the idea of not judging a story until you have actually experienced said story was such an offensive concept to you.
I realize it may be hard to wrap your noodle around this, but you do realize that people don't have to actually sit down and watch an entire story if there's things about it that put them off, right? I know, this is a tough one. But do try to comprehend normal human behavior.
Eumerin wrote: The claim has been made that it shows the consequences of a bad choice. But there's more than one way to show consequences. And it strikes me that developing a sequel about the protagonist of the first game looking for fedemption after said choice from the first game comes back to bite him would have been a much more effective way of illustrating that particular lesson.
I disagree. Sometimes you do not get that chance to redeem yourself. You don't always get to fix the mistakes you make.
Having the consequence of the previous actions be something that robs the player of that playable character, rather than say cause the death of an NPC from the previous game, will be much more affecting on the player. People's reactions to the leak show this. That kind of anger is the exact kind of reaction that the player is meant to have to this happening.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 23:27:55
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
I stand corrected on the GTA character. In my defense, I'll note that this isn't the only time a protagonist dies on-screen, and I apparently misremembered some of the things that I'd heard about the DLC when it was released. I'll also note that "beloved" isn't generally a word associated with GTA characters. They tend to be fairly nasty individuals.
Eumerin wrote: The claim has been made that it shows the consequences of a bad choice. But there's more than one way to show consequences. And it strikes me that developing a sequel about the protagonist of the first game looking for fedemption after said choice from the first game comes back to bite him would have been a much more effective way of illustrating that particular lesson.
I disagree. Sometimes you do not get that chance to redeem yourself. You don't always get to fix the mistakes you make.
Having the consequence of the previous actions be something that robs the player of that playable character, rather than say cause the death of an NPC from the previous game, will be much more affecting on the player. People's reactions to the leak show this. That kind of anger is the exact kind of reaction that the player is meant to have to this happening.
Again, you completely miss the point that I and others are making. Most of us have limited budgets of time and money. Why are people going to spend those budgets on a game that pretty much opens by murdering a character that they like? That's my point, which you are ignoring in favor of your "actions have consequences" mantra.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 23:32:30
A Town Called Malus wrote: I''m sorry, I didn't realise that the idea of not judging a story until you have actually experienced said story was such an offensive concept to you.
I realize it may be hard to wrap your noodle around this, but you do realize that people don't have to actually sit down and watch an entire story if there's things about it that put them off, right? I know, this is a tough one. But do try to comprehend normal human behavior.
If you are not going to engage with a story then what possible valid critique can you have on that story? Without engaging with the story you do not have any of the context around narrative events which adds meaning and depth to the story.
By all means don't engage with a story you don't think you will like.
But also perhaps don't talk about it as without engaging it there is nothing of worth you can add to the discussion beyond your personal reasons for not engaging with it, which are irrelevant to discussing the actual substance and worth of the story.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: If you are not going to engage with a story then what possible valid critique can you have on that story? Without engaging with the story you do not have any of the context around narrative events which adds meaning and depth to the story.
If I'm not a fan of over-the-top gore, I probably don't need to sit through a movie that features over-the-top gore, especially if the gore and violence are a major focal point of the movie.
But also perhaps don't talk about it as without engaging it there is nothing of worth you can add to the discussion beyond your personal reasons for not engaging with it, which are irrelevant to discussing the actual substance and worth of the story.
This sounds an awful lot about gatekeeping.
"If you're not going to buy it, then you don't get an opinion on it!"
I'd at least ask ND for a sticker or something if you're gonna do that kinda work for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 23:36:43
Again, you completely miss the point that I and others are making. Most of us have limited budgets of time and money. Why are people going to spend those budgets on a game that pretty much opens by murdering a character that they like? That's my point, which you are ignoring in favor of your "actions have consequences" mantra.
Because not all stories have to be happy. We do not limit other artistic mediums by this idea, so why limit video games?
If people don't want to buy it that is fine. But don't argue that the story is bad because it has made choices which you do not like. The fact that people feel the way they do about that story choice does not mean that it was a bad choice. It is possible to intentionally evoke a negative reaction from the audience and it is equally as valid a goal as evoking a positive reaction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 23:39:20
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Again, you completely miss the point that I and others are making. Most of us have limited budgets of time and money. Why are people going to spend those budgets on a game that pretty much opens by murdering a character that they like? That's my point, which you are ignoring in favor of your "actions have consequences" mantra.
Because not all stories have to be happy. We do not limit other artistic mediums by this idea, so why limit video games?
If people don't want to buy it that is fine. But don't argue that the story is bad because it has made choices which you do not like. The fact that people feel the way they do about that story choice does not mean that it was a bad choice. It is possible to intentionally evoke a negative reaction from the audience and it is equally as valid a goal as evoking a positive reaction.
Then the developers should change the name. They're attempting to draw in fans of the characters in the first game with the title, but one of the first things that the game apparently does is force the player to murder someone that the player grew to like in the first game. By all means, keep an indication that there's a link between the two game plots. But don't do it in a way that misleads players.
