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Genuinely curious about a thing. Space marine (scout) shotguns.

Is there a reason that these are a thing?

I mean marines standard loadout is a bolter, or bolt pistol (bolt weaponry). Rapid fire weapon that fires explosive ammunition.

I get that shotguns in real life lean towards the the 'max firepower, short range' kind of thing, as well as door openers. But again... from the Space Marines perspective, your other weapon fires explosive ammunition. From my very limited experience, surely that counts as 'max firepower?' As for doors. you're a space marine. Do you really need a special gun to open a door? I'm Pretty sure the door will be scared hingeless and will just fall over anyway.

I mean, is there a valuable role for shotguns in the kinds of things that marines/scouts do that can't be done by their other 'basic' weapons?

Thoughts?

I blame Hicks.

Think of it like fireballs and firearrows in Dungeons and Dragons.


Now you've got a huge powerful fireball spell and a piddly little fire arrow spell. Why would you need the latter when you've got the former.
Well one reason - when you're in close proximity, if you use the former you'll hit yourself and your party. If you use the latter its not going to hurt as much to the enemy, but more importantly it won't kill your party too.



Scouts don't have the same thick armour marines have, so perhaps for them not using a huge bolter with explosive rocket powered rounds in close quarters, keeps them alive. So they use shotguns which provide similar power, but without the potential for taking their own face off after the round hits.

FPS games. And a desire to kit scouts out with something other than just bolt Pistols back in the day. Having said that, Rogue Trader had both shotguns and sawn off shotguns as options, so it's not like they were first injected with the scouts.

Scouts probably have shotguns for the same reason some soldiers IRL use shotguns instead of assault rifles. Remember in some editions they had their uses. Models don't go away just because newer rules make them less optimal.

Same reason people use them currently. I would assume that they're not like our pantywaisted 21st century versions. Imagine Armour-peircing duplex slugs, buck n ball(but with programmable patterning), phosphor "birdshot", etc...


If you could switch ammo on the fly it would be very useful.
like
Astartes "Malcador" pattern assault shotgun

Phosphor Scattershot;
Hundreds of phosphorus pellets ignite when exiting barrel, splattering molten metal on the Emperor's foes.

RF2 RANGE 12" S 4 AP 0 D D3 Units do not receive benefit from cover & automatically hits if unit is in 1/2 range

Armourbane Slug;
A fin stabilized discarding sabot ceramite slug designed for extreme close quarters armour penetration.

RF1 Range 18" S5 AP -1 D2 If unit is within 1/2 range increase AP to -3

Emperors Fury: Dozens of large calibre projectiles spread out from the barrel to pepper an area with the Fury of the Emperor.

Assault3 Range 12" S4 AP0 D2
when targeting an infantry unit, any successful hits generate an additional wound after all saves have been made.

To shoot things?

Scouts are rookies. You might want to give them simpler weapons than sophisticated bolters until they show they have good firing discipline. I could definitely see a progression of scouts from shotgun, to bolt pistol and combat blades, to bolters and then to snipers as they progress. Then the leap from sniper-scouts to devastators is easier. Plus, bolters are probably a lot more noisy and mess than shotguns and scouts are first and foremost...well scouts so not being seen or heard is rather impotant.

Just look at the M97 or Mossberg 500. Both weapons found their use either in the trenches or dense jungle. When you’re in extremely close, it’s hard to beat the solid slugs from from a shotgun. Plus a boltgun round needs time to arm so it can over penetrate some targets.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Just look at the M97 or Mossberg 500. Both weapons found their use either in the trenches or dense jungle. When you’re in extremely close, it’s hard to beat the solid slugs from from a shotgun. Plus a boltgun round needs time to arm so it can over penetrate some targets.

This is unfortunately where real world and fantasy collide. A real world 12 guage shotgun has a barrel that's 0.727" wide, while a fantasy Bolter has a caliber of 0.75". Meaning a non mass-reactive round from a Bolter is better than a shotgun slug.

The Astartes Assault shotguns are meant to be beefier and faster than IRL shotguns but they really don't make much sense outside of selecting ammunition. In some versions of the WH40K universe, like Necromunda and IIRC 3rd Edition or pre-3rd Edition shotguns are template weapons, meaning you got a chance to hit more than one target, and you could select ammo like the ManStopper and the HotShot rounds, making them versatile and cheap. I forget what the points difference was but shotguns were between LasGuns and Bolters in both price and effect, IIRC, it has been a long time since 3rd and I can't find my rule books anywhere.


Some of the advantages of a shotgun don't translate into table top very well, especially when you have options like plasma guns, meltas, conversion beams and many of the so called advantages of IRL shotguns don't even translate well to IRL! There are many misconceptions about the effectiveness of a real world shotgun.

But they do make EPIC models. My Arbites are 70%-30% shotguns to bolters. My Scouts are about 60% sniper rifles, 20% shotguns, 10% bolters/bolt pistols and 10% heavy weapons. 'Cos they cool. A smattering of my Catachan's are doing a Higgs, with either a shotgun strapped to their back or in their hands. My Necromunda gangs all have a couple of shotguns spread around them. Of the handful of Orks and Gretchen I have, about half have shotguns.

He's "Higgs", I'm Hudson

This is the background section, so the answer is a little rougher. Some scattered, undercaffinated morning ramblings.

Game mechanics, there used to be a lot of reasons why you might want a shotgun. They have waxed and waned over the years. And are pretty slim right now in 8th.

A sculptor made a model for one, and the rules followed?

Bolters, while being devastating, are often also described as temperamental and high maintenance. They are complicated, require special ammo, etc. It might take years for a scout to qualify with one, before he’s allowed to take one to battle. Layer on this the pseudo-mystical religious zealotry of the marines, he might have to earn the rights to carry the sacred weapons of the Marines before even starting to learn it’s use.

Shotguns are simpler, but still offer some stopping power, and have some flexible ammo options. On a long scouting deployment, the reliability away from the chapter’s techmarines might be key.

A full battle-brother might be able to precision place every bolt shell into his targets in a the chaos of a running gunfight boarding action, but a scout might want the spread of a shotgun.

While fully automatic gyrojet explosive rocket launchers are cool, are they as cool as shotguns? Classic cool. And they make that satisfying ka-KHUNK sound when you work the slide..

A possible explanation would be that scouts haven't yet earned the right to use bolters. They must prove themselves before being given the chapter's best equipment.

I'm building a 10th Co scout force right now, and I like the look of the Shotguns but they arent as effective as Bolters.

Several editions ago, the choice of Assault 2 was a consideration, because Bolters needed to be stationary.

And yes, the Scouts are all ripped from the Colonial Marinea from Aliens.

Maybe marines have to earn a bolter which is a holy and sacred weapon, scouts have not yet earned a bolter of their own.

Makes no sense but hey, this is 40k...

Bolters are notoriously difficult to maintain. Even for Space Marines.

Scout Squads might operate behind enemy lines for protracted periods.

So equipment far more robust and resilient Shotguns makes logistical sense. The ammo is also likely far lighter, allowing each Scout to carry more about their person.

Shotguns had a longer range in 2nd ed and this was reflected in the background for their use.

Bolters are actually quite complicated and break down easily without constant maintenance.

Shotguns being simpler wouldn't be as big a problem for scouts who are out in the wild for a while.

But you do need to look at the rules because the background and rules were far more heavily entwined in 2nd ed and scouts had plenty of reasons to take shotguns.

Shotguns had different uses - they had an 18" range, and their scatter shot was a blast template (1").

All shotgun shots also knocked targets back 2" and could knock them over.

This last one made them good for pushing units out of cover and also pinning them for a round.

Modern shotgun rules have a hard time comparing to their usefulness back then, which was reflected in the background much more.

Shotguns also were highly versatile, being able to take so many different ammo types (including bolts), while bolters had no special ammo at all.

Kayback wrote:


This is unfortunately where real world and fantasy collide. A real world 12 guage shotgun has a barrel that's 0.727" wide, while a fantasy Bolter has a caliber of 0.75". Meaning a non mass-reactive round from a Bolter is better than a shotgun slug.

12 gauge isn’t the limit for shotguns. A 10 gauge comes in at .775” and it’s not hard to believe that the astartes upscale theirs. Some older shotguns went even higher.

8 Gauge is a real shotgun gauge, it's huge and really isn't my idea of fun to fire, but people do it and people in real life also did invent the punt gun. Because why fire twice to kill an entire flock of birds?


I imagine a spacemarine sized shotgun to be something more along punt gun lines but with a bit more velocity behind it, becasue they can handle it and velocity is killing power. Load this with explosive ammo and you effectively have a pump action grenade launcher, load it with flechette or shot and it's basically gonna kill or maim a lot of stuff.


So as compared to a bolter I imagine the shotgun being a much larger calibre, and thus much more effective against targets at close range. Because organic targets are quite blast absorbent, while shot or flechette is going to make a right and proper mess. Also, call me a cave man but I'd rather not rely on a round exploding in my target to put it down in close quarters, I'd rather just fire and have the nature/spread of the ammo do the job. I Imagine the sudden punch of a tonnage of shot over a wider area might also be more effective against energy shields than a single bolt hitting a single point.

Not only this but don't bolters have an effective arming range(like 5m or something) where they just pass through the target?

Remember reading that in Ultramarines Omnibus so I guess it doesn't have to be cannon...

But if this is so one can guess at why the shotgun might be preferred over the bolter in some situations.

The real answer is that GW crawled so far up themselves to make marines and bolters the greatest thing ever that they left all their other weapons behind.

Hellebore wrote:
Shotguns had a longer range in 2nd ed and this was reflected in the background for their use.

Bolters are actually quite complicated and break down easily without constant maintenance.

Shotguns being simpler wouldn't be as big a problem for scouts who are out in the wild for a while.

But you do need to look at the rules because the background and rules were far more heavily entwined in 2nd ed and scouts had plenty of reasons to take shotguns.

Shotguns had different uses - they had an 18" range, and their scatter shot was a blast template (1").

All shotgun shots also knocked targets back 2" and could knock them over.

This last one made them good for pushing units out of cover and also pinning them for a round.

Modern shotgun rules have a hard time comparing to their usefulness back then, which was reflected in the background much more.

Shotguns also were highly versatile, being able to take so many different ammo types (including bolts), while bolters had no special ammo at all.

I used to use the knock back rule to blast enemy characters into Vortex Grenades.

Grate laff!

IIRC they where introduced with the plastic scout kit. They extended the options for scouts from previously only having access to boltguns and sniper rifles. That was sometime during 4th ed, so quite some time ago. In lore I don't really buy it. We have plenty of examples of space marines being active behind enemy lines for extensive periods of times and usually their bolters work just fine. I guess a shotgun could be more usefull in close range combat, such as in a spaceship or in hive tunnels, but otherwise it falls behind the boltgun. In necromunda the bolters stopping power was superior to the shotgun, unless the shotgun was fired at point blank range in which case it was arguably superior. In Dark Heresy the shotgun was a god amongst weapons as long as you hit it point blank, though they toned it down a bit for Dark Heresy 2. To me it's just a modelling opportunity, which I'm quite happy for. Many of my guard vets shotguns are straight from the space marine scout box.

Background reason from the RPG - astsrtes shotguns are mechanically simpler.

They need less maintenance in the field on extended patrols, and the don't show up on energy-scanner auspex whilst most bolter patterns do.

Plus, massed scatter rounds turn unarmoured light infantry to chunk salsa more efficiently than one-shot-one-overkill mass reactive bolts. Granted some special issue ammo can so the same but that's rare.

 Nerak wrote:
IIRC they where introduced with the plastic scout kit. They extended the options for scouts from previously only having access to boltguns and sniper rifles. That was sometime during 4th ed, so quite some time ago.

Just want to correct this bit. Scouts have always had access to shotguns. While I don’t have a 2nd ed Ultra codex, they are allowed in the Angels of Death. They kept the option in the change to 3rd. I can’t speak for the earlier scouts (which I think were just armed with pistols, knives, and mohawks) but the late 2nd ed metal scouts had shotguns.

 Nerak wrote:
IIRC they where introduced with the plastic scout kit. They extended the options for scouts from previously only having access to boltguns and sniper rifles. That was sometime during 4th ed, so quite some time ago. In lore I don't really buy it. We have plenty of examples of space marines being active behind enemy lines for extensive periods of times and usually their bolters work just fine. I guess a shotgun could be more usefull in close range combat, such as in a spaceship or in hive tunnels, but otherwise it falls behind the boltgun. In necromunda the bolters stopping power was superior to the shotgun, unless the shotgun was fired at point blank range in which case it was arguably superior. In Dark Heresy the shotgun was a god amongst weapons as long as you hit it point blank, though they toned it down a bit for Dark Heresy 2. To me it's just a modelling opportunity, which I'm quite happy for. Many of my guard vets shotguns are straight from the space marine scout box.

Not quite.
They were introduced around 1998. Alongside the bolt pistol and ccw scouts, and the snipers, there were also heavy bolter toting scouts, bolt-gun AND shotgun toting scouts.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

12 gauge isn’t the limit for shotguns. A 10 gauge comes in at .775” and it’s not hard to believe that the astartes upscale theirs. Some older shotguns went even higher.

Oh I didn't mean to imply they were only current tech 12-guage. I was simply saying that the fictional Bolters at .75Cal would be more than a match for an IRL 12-guage shotgun slug.

There was something in.... 2rd edition? wargear that mentions the shotguns are bigger and better than what we have currently. I did mention in my post that Astartes ones are invariably even bigger bore and higher velocity.

Shotgun used to be wicked guns in WH40K, but I do question their value in the latest edition.

In fluff I do think the KISS principle is a good one for behind the lines units I also don't think bolters are *THAT* temperamental. If a firearm jammed as often as that even in an army with super human speed and strength that allows close combat to exist, it wouldn't stay in use. I do think the techno-theocracy is exaggerated. Like in the Ciaphas Cain novel where a guardsman cools down an overheating autocannon by taking a whizz and it functions again, the techpriests would insist only the proper scented oils would work. While a shotgun could be less complicated than a bolter I'd suspect they'd get used in very much the same manner contemporary shotguns (or even shotguns from earlier times) are used, as force multipliers. With contemporary weapons as an example, a 12 guage combat 00 shotgun round can fire 12 .33" pellets, I don't even know how to work out a comparative rate of fire. At one shotgun blast/second an SMG would have to fire at 720rounds/min to compare but would still take a full second to get 12 rounds in the sky and use 1/3 your magazine. At 2 shots per second, with multiple shotguns firing that's a LOT of lead in the air. While Fluff wise that won't work against, say, Traitor Marines it can do the Emperor's work against lighter armoured enemies and the 2nd edition it did mention a Grot/Gretchen with a shotgun being able to kill a Terminator and explaining it as a shot against a weak spot. Ramp up the damage with bigger bore, higher velocity, more pellets and fantasy materials the ammunition could be made of and they should be useful.

There's also the fact in a "real" WH40K setting the Marines would be likely to carry bolters as they will do everything. Kill unarmoured Heretics and Hormigaunts or kill Traitor Marines and Hive Tyrants, sort of Jack-of-all-trades types while the Scouts or shotgun wielders could be better employed in missions where shotguns can do what they need to do. The chance of a Scout charging a Greater Daemon is unlikely but them attacking supply dumps or other softer targets are much more likely.

And they still look cool on the tabletop!

Space Marine shotguns are enormous things that normal humans can't wield. They're probably 2-gauge or something ridiculous like that.

They've had acccess to shotguns since at least 1993. I couldn't find any RT era scout squad rules, but the black list and the first marine codex (space wolves) list shotguns as an option.

Something to consider is that scouts are the most weapons-flexible unit in the marine army list. To post rationalise, I imagine as neophytes they are being trained in different battlefield roles and the use of the astartes arsenal, so they may be deployed with different load outs for training purposes. bolter wielding scouts backgroundwise may actually not infiltrate, instead filling out the line to learn how to Tactical marine.

Shotguns on the other hand are in the same threat zone as bolt pistols, so I imagine infiltrating and scouting missions would more likely carry them or bolt pistols depending on the theatre they're going into. They are the closest thing to a boltgun non boltguns can be in terms of damage but they aren't as complicated, are easier to wield and slot into a close encounters tactical position well.

^They also had a fun little "knockback" effect on smaller targets in 2nd edition I think.