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Hey all,

I have finally taken the plunge and decided to start this wonderful hobby. I have ordered a paint set and 3 Space Marine Intercessors to get me started.

I've been a long time follower of the books and online bat reps and have settled on Space Marines with the intention of either making a Minotaur chapter or my own unique successor chapter.

I am really confused with the changes to space marines and don't really know where to start, as the last time i followed it was all scouts, tactical squads, assault marines and terminators. Now it appears to be Intercessors, Incursors, Infiltrators, Reivers and Primaris marines. i am awaiting a Codex but would really appreciate if someone could bring em up to speed with what exactly has changed (are these just new names for the same units??).

My hope is to try and find a local group that would be interested in running a path to glory type of campaign to allow me to gradually build and model my army.

Additionally any advice on how best to cheaply assemble an army (which box sets are most cost efficient etc.) and also if there are cheaper paint and brush alternatives than the citadel ones.

Cheers in advance guys!

Hey, welcome to the hobby.

The Minotaurs are a really cool Chapter, imo. They are outfitted with the latest and greatest tech so would make extensive use of the most advanced units and technologies the Astartes have.

They don't have a unique chapter rule so it's up to you to decide what Chapter Tactic to use. This isn't much different from a custom chapter in all truths.

When Starting an Astartes army you need to focus on a few units and then build up from there.

For a main HQ you can chose Moloc or build a custom Chapter Master/Captain. You'll need another eventually, Librarians, Lieutenants and Chaplains are all great. Even a Techmarine has unique uses so none are really a waste.

Intercessors are fantastic troops, as are Infiltrators. I typically run 20 Intercessors and 10 Infiltrators. You can run more Intercessors if you desire, they are a solid choice.

Aggressors are very strong elite infantry. Think of them as Terminators that can't teleport but have a lot more shooting. A squad of 5 is great inside a Repulsor.

From there build the army as you see fit. Repulsors are good, as are Invictors. Eliminators are great units too.
Forgeworld also have further good options such as Contemptors.
Basically start by focusing on Infantry and commanders, and then start to expand into more specialised or elite units. I would focus mostly on Primaris.

The Dark Imperium/Know no Fear boxsets are great, especially if you can split them.
The Start Collecting Primaris is a good expansion of an army once you've built up core units. It has a full squad of Infiltrators and some Eliminators - those are the best units in that particular box.

Apexw0lf wrote:
Hey all,

I have finally taken the plunge and decided to start this wonderful hobby. I have ordered a paint set and 3 Space Marine Intercessors to get me started.

I've been a long time follower of the books and online bat reps and have settled on Space Marines with the intention of either making a Minotaur chapter or my own unique successor chapter.

I am really confused with the changes to space marines and don't really know where to start, as the last time i followed it was all scouts, tactical squads, assault marines and terminators. Now it appears to be Intercessors, Incursors, Infiltrators, Reivers and Primaris marines. i am awaiting a Codex but would really appreciate if someone could bring em up to speed with what exactly has changed (are these just new names for the same units??).

My hope is to try and find a local group that would be interested in running a path to glory type of campaign to allow me to gradually build and model my army.

Additionally any advice on how best to cheaply assemble an army (which box sets are most cost efficient etc.) and also if there are cheaper paint and brush alternatives than the citadel ones.

Cheers in advance guys!

Hello and welcome! I'll break up my response in to several sections here

1) Primaris Marines are new with the latest 8th edition of the game. It is community speculation that they are intended as "replacements" for the older version of space marines, which are still out there and are for the most part far newer than most factions in the game in terms of their kits. Regardless, Primaris Marines are generally more straightforward to play, with more of a stationary gunline gameplay style, and present fewer potential "Trap" options to people assembling their miniatures. Gone are the days where an excited, fresh-faced new player would come in and have a squad of space marines glued with all the melee weapons in the box that were intended for the sergeant only, only to have to tell him that his 40$ purchase was basically useless in-game.

Critically, they are NOT just new names for the same units. There are some units that are sort of similar to existing options (Intercessors to the old Tactical Marines, for example) but they've changed the structure such that now, most primaris squads have the same weaponry on every member and a choice of what weaponry the whole squad will have. With old tacticals, every member of the squad had boltguns except for 1 heavy weeapon and 1 special weapon you chose. Now, there are no specials and heavies, but 3 different styles of boltgun (Standard, Sniper, and Assault) that you choose for your intercessor squad.

Additionally, many heavier units are eqipped with a mixture of anti-tank and anti-infantry weaponry, which makes it fairly difficult to build a primaris list that is extremely poor at any particular job. This is speculated to be a choice made to make it easier to construct a list for new players.

For a lot of 8th edition, the new primaris were not particularly great, but as of right now they are top tier competitive units in many cases. Intercessors, Aggressors, Incursors/infiltrators, eliminators, and Invictus Warsuits are all very good units you could take to a tournament.

2) The best way to build an army on the cheap is through secondhand purchases and boxed sets. Secondhand, it is easy to find the starter sets such as Dark Imperium and Know No Fear, which contain heavy discounts but miniatures from two factions, purchased and put on sale separately by ebay sellers. I would begin my Primaris army with a purchase of an ebay set of Dark Imperium, which gets you 2 troops units, 3 HQ units, 1 elite unit and 1 fast attack unit right out of the gate. There are also "Start collecting" sets, which offer a 30-40% discount on buying the squads individually - there's one for the primaris vanguard units, and 1 for the basic primaris units (branded as Space Wolves, but they're identical to the ones any chapter would get). Finally, "easy to build" models are mono-pose, but cheaper and the same quality as the full kits. You can get an Easy to Build redemptor dreadnought for 40$ direct from GW, or the full kit for 60$ - the easy to build is mono-pose, but actually comes all set with the optimal weapon loadout for the dreadnought, so if you don't mind the static pose it's much cheaper.

And of course, there's always buying used miniatures off ebay, which is a total mixed bag. I usually caution against this, or at least tell players to always keep the discounts from box sets in their minds: Ebay is a website designed to make you feel like you've found a REALLY GREAT deal, even when you've found...well, not so great a deal after shipping costs.

3) I would recommend any brush made from Kolinsky Red Sable for your detail work (I use the Army Painter brand, but pretty much any brand works). Try to keep it under, I don't know, 6 euro? A euro is pretty close to a dollar right? That's going to be identical to the 30$ GW detail brush. Also, save yourself a lot of brush replacements by getting a super-cheap synthetic hair brush, and use that brush exclusively for all washes you put on. That 2-3 euro brush will save you replacing your nice 6-7 euro brush 3-4 times most likely. The other best money-saving tip I've got for painting is to use a wet palette, which is just a fancy way of saying "A plate, with some kind of absorbent material like a wet paper towel on it, and then a piece of parchment paper you can get from the grocery store on top of that". This palette will keep your paints wet for about 12 hours, allowing you to get those sweet sweet thin coats, and keep you from sitting there with your pots open and drying out while you paint and get mad that it goes on chunky and thick.

Cheers for the quick informative answers.

i'm going for a spartan theme space marine force and heard that minotaurs were most applicable.

One final question, are space marines suited to a melee heavy assault force?

If so how does that do in competitive?

They can do it, and some chapters are better at it for sure.

Generally I would say that Astartes are best as a mid table shooting army with some close combat elements.

Don't commit your army to a single purpose, especially when starting out.

Apexw0lf wrote:
Cheers for the quick informative answers.

i'm going for a spartan theme space marine force and heard that minotaurs were most applicable.

One final question, are space marines suited to a melee heavy assault force?

If so how does that do in competitive?

Frankly, no, they aren't.

One of the problems with the new primaris line is that it doesn't really have that many dedicated assault units. And many of the assault units that remain from the classic marines are currently quite underpowered (old Assault Squads, for example).

If you're going for a dedicated assault army, and you want space marines, your best bet is to use Blood Angels rules (You can still call them Minotaurs of course, just use the Blood Angels codex) because that gets you several good dedicated assault units like Sanguinary Guard, as well as several characters and abilities that can really help assault.

Depending on what kind of spartans your'e after (Historical, locked-shields sort of legion or ultra-badass 300 action heroes) the Adeptus Custodes might be a good option to consider. Their signature weapon is a spear, and they're currently the single most elite army in the entire game. Also, incidentally, the financially cheapest army in the entire game. There is a 60$ biker kit that you have the option of running as 3 characters, which can be almost 600 points.

Agreed, Marines are primarily a firepower army. Their melee units are best used to finish off fights or kept is reserve in case enemy melee units threaten your lines.

If you really want melee Marines, Blood Angels (with Snaguinary Guard and Death Company) or Space Wolves (Wulfen) are the primary choices.

The good thing about creating your own Chapter is you can always play them as something else. Build your minotaurs and play them as codex chapter. But you can also buy a few units of Sanguinary Guard and a couple of Blood Angels Characters and play them as Blood Angels whenevr you feel like it. Or you could buy a few packs of Wulfen and play them as Space Wolves the next week (slightly harder as Space Wolves don't use classic Marine squads like Tactical Marines but do use all the new Primaris minis so it can be done).

I would suggest starting with a Battalion and aiming for 1000 points. This gives you an army you can paint in a reasonable time but gives you a viable force for small games. A Battalion consists of a minimum of 2 HQs and 3 Troops which is pretty easy to collect. Then you can add whatever support elements you need to bulk it out a bit.

That's the long game, however. And it requires multiple sources of rules.

TC, you should decide exactly what you want from your army if you are dead set on close combat prior to starting.

Remember that this is a scifi wargame. The focus is more on shooting than close combat across the board.

First and foremost, USE EBAY or that odd Facebook store. Often you'll fine entire painted armies for sale if you really wanna go that route. Or youll find cheaper then store/online prices for models (especially if your able to bid lower). I always either send a message or make an offer thats cheaper then what the current bid/buyout price is and almost always get it 5-10$ cheaper then they have it listed.
Secondly - LGS (Logcal Game Stores) while i agree you should buy a lot of stuff from them sometimes they market things 5-10-20 dollars higher then other places so i tend to only buy my supplies/paints from them.
Thirdly? - At this point with the Corona virus happening it's going to be hard to get ANY models/paints/supplies as most places are closed till mid-end May and if you buy online you won't get most things till June.
Fourthly - A good starter kit for painting etc is go on Amazon and look up like a gundam model kit - it has all the basic supplies for like 10-15$. Paint brushes and things like that you'll either have to order and wait or maybe find some cheap ones at a Target or Walmart or maybe a Local Arts place?
Fithly - The Number 1 rule of building an army is "Rule of Cool" YOU are going to be the one assembling/gluing/painting etc you don't want to spend all that time on something that you dislike how it looks. If it looks cool paint it. If your really invested make a 2000 point army then have like an extra 500-1000 points of extra stuff you can swap in and out.
Finally - If your new to painting your gonna suck and your models might not look the greatest! Awesome mine are just now getting to a point where i'm VERY happy with them, but even seasoned painters will tell you their not happy with some of their best works. IT's a skill that takes time and patience and rushing it is the worst mistake you can make. That being said there are THOUSANDS of tutorials on Youtube that i reccomend you look at for every step and get an idea of what to do/how to do it.

Do not buy a painted army lol.

That's utterly rubbish advice. The hobby is where a lot of the fun is.

Unless you only care about playing as fast as possible and nothing else. Very few think like this.

 Ishagu wrote:
Do not buy a painted army lol.

That's utterly rubbish advice. The hobby is where a lot of the fun is.

Unless you only care about playing as fast as possible and nothing else. Very few think like this.

Well, sure, but buying a previously painted army and stripping it is unquestionably the cheapest way to get 40k stuff.

That's not for someone totally new to the hobby to do.

They'll end up overwhelmed and shelve it. Happens all the time.

Start small, unit by unit or with a starter set you can build up yourself. That's the correct advice.

Also they shouldn't just buy some grey sprues from ebay. Best to start with a boxset from a retailer. The art that comes with them, the books, lore, etc are all there to invest someone in the hobby.

Honestly I'm baffled when someone recommend a method into the hobby that bypasses most of the hobby.

 Ishagu wrote:
They can do it, and some chapters are better at it for sure.

Generally I would say that Astartes are best as a mid table shooting army with some close combat elements.

Don't commit your army to a single purpose, especially when starting out.

Cheers for the answers, i'm intending on trying to create a balanced enough army but that has some scope to included assault variants so i can model a real spartan feel to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for all the input guys.

Really impressed with how helpful the community has been so far.

Regarding the pre-painted army appreciate the input but the main draw for me is creating and modelling my own chapter.

Final stupid question!

There is a gaming store in my town (The Gathering, Limerick). Is this the best way to start learning the rules and playing the game or is there other forums etc.

Apexw0lf wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
They can do it, and some chapters are better at it for sure.

Generally I would say that Astartes are best as a mid table shooting army with some close combat elements.

Don't commit your army to a single purpose, especially when starting out.

Cheers for the answers, i'm intending on trying to create a balanced enough army but that has some scope to included assault variants so i can model a real spartan feel to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for all the input guys.

Really impressed with how helpful the community has been so far.

Regarding the pre-painted army appreciate the input but the main draw for me is creating and modelling my own chapter.

Final stupid question!

There is a gaming store in my town (The Gathering, Limerick). Is this the best way to start learning the rules and playing the game or is there other forums etc.

I mean, It's an in person game. Definitely head down there and check out the local gaming scene!

It's definitely best to learn face to face.

Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.

There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.

The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc

3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.

There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:

1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.

2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.

The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.

The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.

 Ishagu wrote:
It's definitely best to learn face to face.

Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.

There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.

The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc

No, just NO. I've never seen or heard of that Golden Rule it is BAD. You only learn by doing and mistakes are the greatest teachers. IVE NEVER HEARD THIS RULE EVER. My first game i went to a LGS even for Free Play and told the people i was facing that it was my first few games and omg they were so freaking helpful they took me step by step by i still lost 2 of those 3 games. I learned from my MISTAKES in those games and won the third 1 with little to no help. Letting someone win teaches them bad habits right form the get go. And no buying a pre-painted army isn't the worst thing. I got one for like 400 bucks and it was my first "intro army". I looked up videos on how to play/what to do and took that army out. It got me MORE interested in wanting to make my own army/list and paint it myself. I've since learned how to paint that scheme and added a few units of my own to it. Meanwhile i've made an Ad-Mech army and am im the process of painting an Imperial Fists army.

The Newman wrote:
3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.

There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:

1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.

2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.

The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.

The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.

I agree....to a point with some of this stuff. I have noticed though that for some of the folks who absolutely hate painting or think they're just irredeemably bad at it, it can be because they are using a 1$ brush instead of a 5$ brush and 1$ paint instead of 3$ paint to paint a 60$ plastic model.

One of those little 3$ vallejo paint bottles? That's about 2,000 points of models worth of paint right there, if it's the primary color you're painting those models. That 7$ size 1 sable brush will probably last you about as long as well if you take care of it.

Definitely agreed on brush washing, and that for the most part, citadel stuff is not anywhere near the top quality for the price. I think there's a somewhat logarithmic curve to the amount of benefit you get benefit you'll see out of getting good quality hobby supplies by spending extra money, and that first 20 extra bucks you spend on paints from a miniature hobby store and brushes from an art store instead of from a michaels is a REALLY important 20 bucks in my book.

I just saw a post from someone in my group who was very frustrated by his paint results, and he posted up a real "ebay pro painted" model like "I don't know why I'm so bad at this!?!" from the picture you could see he was using one of those plastic-bristled brushes that come out of kids water color sets, and also not priming his minis, and also he had a can of house paint

Rahdok wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
It's definitely best to learn face to face.

Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.

There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.

The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc

No, just NO. I've never seen or heard of that Golden Rule it is BAD. You only learn by doing and mistakes are the greatest teachers. IVE NEVER HEARD THIS RULE EVER. My first game i went to a LGS even for Free Play and told the people i was facing that it was my first few games and omg they were so freaking helpful they took me step by step by i still lost 2 of those 3 games. I learned from my MISTAKES in those games and won the third 1 with little to no help. Letting someone win teaches them bad habits right form the get go. And no buying a pre-painted army isn't the worst thing. I got one for like 400 bucks and it was my first "intro army". I looked up videos on how to play/what to do and took that army out. It got me MORE interested in wanting to make my own army/list and paint it myself. I've since learned how to paint that scheme and added a few units of my own to it. Meanwhile i've made an Ad-Mech army and am im the process of painting an Imperial Fists army.

You've never heard of a friendly learning game designed to hook players into the hobby?

You're not teaching them bad habits, you're simply steering the tutorial game. Lol what bad habit are you teaching?

"Hook them". Sounds like a drug dealer.

Don't give out easy wins, because those evaporate fast. Beat them, and then explain why they lost.

No that's pretty stupid. You don't need to learn from failure all the time.

It's a friendly tutorial game to teach you the basics. Winning does not matter. Does your low self esteem prevent you from allowing your opponent a victory?

Not at all. It's just not best to get their hopes up. It'smore honest to show them what they will likely be facing on a regular basis. Kid gloves help no one.

For example, I'd tripoint an entire new player's army to show them what's coming in the future. So they aren't surprised by it.

You should probably just talk to the player first about whether they want you to go easy on them.

I'll mention I don't play anymore, but I still love the modelling and painting aspect. Possibly more so now that the game is irrelevant.

Re paints and brushes; I use Army Painter brushes, Wal-Mart primer and pound-shop paint. All are a lot cheaper than Citadel. Lots of people will tell you that you can't use craft paints on miniatures. Check p1 of my plog and make your own mind up.

The best way to stretch value of your boxes is to use them as two or more different things. A box of Cadians, for example, can be any of Astra Militarum, Genestealer Cultists or Renegades & Heretics. The opportunities to do that with Space Marines are more limited aside from all the many millions of different Chapter Tactics you can apply to them.

Nurglitch wrote:
You should probably just talk to the player first about whether they want you to go easy on them.

Or that, I suppose.

 Ishagu wrote:
It's definitely best to learn face to face.

Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.

There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.

The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc

I don't think I heard a worse advice to start anything ever. How is someone suppose to learn anything, if they are let to win. Worse, if they are fooled in to thinking they are winning, they may get a wrong idea about how things really are, and then reality can teach them a much harsher lesson. Better to lose 20-30 games when starting with a start collecting box, then buy a 2000pts army and suddenly face the reality of real meta game, and potential wasted hundrads of dollars.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^

Is there any place where Ishagu isn't feeding BS and lies to other people? He feels like a GW Corporate at this point

I don't think he's lying. He just has a VERY narrow view of how the 40K community is supposed to operate. His advice here might operate in his little bubble, but fails for the general case.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think he's lying. He just has a VERY narrow view of how the 40K community is supposed to operate. His advice here might operate in his little bubble, but fails for the general case.

He also has a "narrow view" on so many things concerning 40k that I'm starting to have doubts as of recent