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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

So, as a thought experiment, I'm going to take Nurgle Daemons and give them the MOST shooting possible.

Spoiler:
HQs
BS3+ Rotigus, who has a 7" Assault 2d6 S: User, AP-3, D1 flamer that rerolls failed wounds
3 BS3+ Great Unclean Ones, each who can take a 7" Assault 3 S: User, AP-3, D2 weapon that can also be fired like a pistol, and causes damage to spill over
3 BS2+ Spoilpox Scriveners, each of who has a 6" Pistol d3 S3 AP0 D1 weapon that rerolls wound rolls of 1

Troops
Literally nothing

Elites
Literally nothing

Fast Attack
3 sets of 9 BS4+ Plague Drones, each of whom has a 12" Assault 2 S4 AP0 D1 gun that rerolls wound rolls of 1

Heavy Support
3 BS4+ Soul Grinders, each of which has two guns. One is 48" Heavy 3, S7, AP-1, Dd3. The other is 36", S8, AP-2, D3.
So, that's 2,702 points.

In total, it has at the following range bands, this amount of shooting (assuming no bracketing):

Spoiler:
More than 48"
Nothing

36"-48"
9 BS4+ S7 AP-1 Dd3 shots

12"-36"
Add 3d6 BS4+ S8 AP-2 D3 shots

7"-12"
Add 54 BS4+ S4 AP0 D1 shots that reroll wound rolls of 1

6"-7"
Add 2d6 S7 AP-3 D1 flamer hits that reroll failed wounds
Add 9 BS3+ S7 AP-3 D2 shots that can overkill

6" or less
Add 3d3 BS2+ S3 AP0 D1 shots that reroll wound rolls of 1
So, for nearly 3,000 points of Nurgle shooting, assuming they're all somehow within range and the opponent is not in cover, they would do to MEQs...

17.76 wounds that either overkill or are D1
2.92 D3 wounds
1.5 Dd3 wounds

Note that that first category? Is all Range 12" or less.

But, assuming you somehow get them all in range, you can expect to kill about 13 T4 Primaris Marines! That's almost 10% of the Nurgle points value!

This tangent brought to you by this thread, to avoid cluttering it up.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






So don't build mono-Nurgle? Or ally in other fire support if you think you need it.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Insectum7 wrote:
So don't build mono-Nurgle? Or ally in other fire support if you think you need it.
Iron Hands are better than Black Templars. Should we tell all Black Templars players to switch to Iron Hands?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 20:39:11


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
So don't build mono-Nurgle? Or ally in other fire support if you think you need it.
Iron Hands are better than Black Templars. Should we tell all Black Templars players to switch to Iron Hands?
False analogy, choosing BT doesnt restrict you to 25% of the units in the book. Does Daemons provide a super-bonus if you mono-build?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
So don't build mono-Nurgle? Or ally in other fire support if you think you need it.
Iron Hands are better than Black Templars. Should we tell all Black Templars players to switch to Iron Hands?
False analogy, choosing BT doesnt restrict you to 25% of the units in the book. Does Daemons provide a super-bonus if you mono-build?
Why should I have to ally in from outside my core forces to cover basic battlefield roles?

Or, if it's built with gaps, why can't it be viable to play an army that has those gaps?

And I fail to see how the analogy is a false one. Sure, Black Templars get slapped with bonuses if they stay mono-BT, and lesser but still substantial bonuses if they stay mono-Marine. But I'm not talking about winning grand tournaments. I'm talking about ordinary games in the local shop, and having variety in the army that I want to play.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
So don't build mono-Nurgle? Or ally in other fire support if you think you need it.
Iron Hands are better than Black Templars. Should we tell all Black Templars players to switch to Iron Hands?
False analogy, choosing BT doesnt restrict you to 25% of the units in the book. Does Daemons provide a super-bonus if you mono-build?
Why should I have to ally in from outside my core forces to cover basic battlefield roles?

Or, if it's built with gaps, why can't it be viable to play an army that has those gaps?

And I fail to see how the analogy is a false one. Sure, Black Templars get slapped with bonuses if they stay mono-BT, and lesser but still substantial bonuses if they stay mono-Marine. But I'm not talking about winning grand tournaments. I'm talking about ordinary games in the local shop, and having variety in the army that I want to play.

You: "Doctor, doctor! It hurts when I do this!"
Me: So don't do that.

Like I'm legitimately wondering if GWs intent is to mono-build daemons. And yeah, the Black Templars/Iron Hands analogy is terrible. You don't lose 75% of your book by choosing a Chapter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 20:58:31


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Why is wanting to play just Nurgle Daemons wrong?

Why should I be punished for my army choice?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
So don't build mono-Nurgle? Or ally in other fire support if you think you need it.
Iron Hands are better than Black Templars. Should we tell all Black Templars players to switch to Iron Hands?
False analogy, choosing BT doesnt restrict you to 25% of the units in the book. Does Daemons provide a super-bonus if you mono-build?

Yes they do. Donno the others off the top of my head, but Slannesh HQ choices all get a 6" 'charge after advancing' aura if you mono-build.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 21:00:32


   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

The Newman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
So don't build mono-Nurgle? Or ally in other fire support if you think you need it.
Iron Hands are better than Black Templars. Should we tell all Black Templars players to switch to Iron Hands?
False analogy, choosing BT doesnt restrict you to 25% of the units in the book. Does Daemons provide a super-bonus if you mono-build?

Yes they do. Donno the others off ths top of my head, but Slannesh HQ choices all get a 6" 'charge after advancing' aura if you mono-build.
That's their chapter tactic equivalent, not their doctrine equivalent. No one has a Doctrine equivalent but Sisters and Marines, and only Marines get a Super Doctrine.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 JNAProductions wrote:
Why is wanting to play just Nurgle Daemons wrong?

Why should I be punished for my army choice?

Why should I be punished for choosing to use a Space Marine army of only Fast Attack choices?

It's not "wrong" to play a fluffy army, but I don't expect them all to be even remotely competetive.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





He just said super-bonus, and that's their super-bonus for mono-god builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurgle characters get a 6" +1 damage on any wound roll of 6+ aura.
Khorne characters get a 6" reroll charges aura.
Tzeentch characters get a 6" ... enemy to-hit rolls in the fight phase fail if, after rerolls but before modifiers, they match a number determined by rolling two dice and discarding the higher result at the start of the phase. Very strange

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 21:08:13


   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Why is wanting to play just Nurgle Daemons wrong?

Why should I be punished for my army choice?

Why should I be punished for choosing to use a Space Marine army of only Fast Attack choices?

It's not "wrong" to play a fluffy army, but I don't expect them all to be even remotely competetive.
Why would that be fluffy?

But, okay-let's say I want to run Nurgle, but I'm also willing to take Slaanesh and Khorne Daemons. But not Tzeentch-Nurgle and Tzeentch are opposed to each other moreso than the other gods, even if none of them really get along.

You want to know how much shooting that adds?

Spoiler:
HQs
Skarbrand has a Heavy Flamer, as do Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirsters. The WoK Bloodthirsters also get an 8" Assault 1 S8 AP-3 D3 weapon that can be fired like a Pistol.
The Unfettered Fury Bloodthirster has an 8" Assault d3 S7 AP-3 Dd3 weapon that can be fired like a Pistol.

Fast Attack
Hellflayers each have a 6" Assault d6 S4 AP0 D1 weapon that can be fired like a Pistol.

Heavy Support
Skull Cannons have a 48" ignores cover Battle Cannon. Only d6 shots, no double tapping.
Seeker Chariots and the Exalted variant get the same weapon as a Hellflayer.


And that's it.

The Newman wrote:
He just said super-bonus, and that's their super-bonus for mono-god builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurgle characters get a 6" +1 damage on any wound roll of 6+ aura.
Khorne characters get a 6" reroll charges aura.
Tzeentch characters get a 6" ... enemy to-hit rolls in the fight phase fail if, after rerolls but before modifiers, they match a number determined by rolling two dice and discarding the higher result at the start of the phase. Very strange
Again, it's basically their Chapter Tactic. You get it if your DETACHMENT is pure Nurgle, not if your entire ARMY is pure Nurgle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 21:09:35


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





The Newman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
So don't build mono-Nurgle? Or ally in other fire support if you think you need it.
Iron Hands are better than Black Templars. Should we tell all Black Templars players to switch to Iron Hands?
False analogy, choosing BT doesnt restrict you to 25% of the units in the book. Does Daemons provide a super-bonus if you mono-build?

Yes they do. Donno the others off ths top of my head, but Slannesh HQ choices all get a 6" 'charge after advancing' aura if you mono-build.


It's by detachment though, right?

Anyway, Chaos Daemons are one of three (maybe 4, since Strikes&Terminators are supposedly good at melee but still really good at shooting) armies that have melee core troops.

All of them have shooting core troops as well, though only Daemons could conceivably lack them for reasons beyond them being outperformed by melee options or building a deliberately gakky list because "fluff".

And of them, only Daemons are also anything resembling lacking in gunpower in the support options.



As for the mono-daemons question, I don't think I saw a mono-god daemons list once in fantasy or in 40k until 8th edition. There's some incentive for it now that there didn't used to be, but even then it's by detachment.

Basically, the one army that's literally a direct port of another game's army with next to zero attempt to integrate it with it's new home is the only one that's short in shooting, and even then you still have to make a conscious choice to not have any shooting at all in your army.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/11 21:13:51


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Again-I'm not asking for mono Nurgle to be a top tier, Grand Tournament winning army.

I would like it to be a viable force in its own right. And a reasonably varied one-hell, a single planet could have tens of millions of Nurgle Daemons, which is already more Marines than exist at all.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






A Fast Attack Space Marine army is fluffy because I decided to build a collection around the 8th Company.

@DETATCHMENT: A hah! So Build your Nurgle Daemon detatchment, then take two detatchments of Death Guard. Boom, old school fluffy Nurgle army.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-I'm not asking for mono Nurgle to be a top tier, Grand Tournament winning army.

I would like it to be a viable force in its own right. And a reasonably varied one-hell, a single planet could have tens of millions of Nurgle Daemons, which is already more Marines than exist at all.


Mono nurgle is viable. Maybe not as shooting army but hey guess what? Not every army can do every phase well. Tau isn't going to roll over units in melee, sisters aren't going to roflstomp anybody in psychic phase, eldar aren't going to grind through war of attrition...

If nurgle should be powerful in shooting as well give tau then nurgle daemon beating durability and melee abilities as well then.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2020/02/24/tneva82-winter-war-tournament-report/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Insectum7 wrote:
A Fast Attack Space Marine army is fluffy because I decided to build a collection around the 8th Company.

@DETATCHMENT: A hah! So Build your Nurgle Daemon detatchment, then take two detatchments of Death Guard. Boom, old school fluffy Nurgle army.
Death Guard aren't daemons. They're Marines.

This page of the Lexicanum says the 8th Company is comprised of Close Support Squads. Which, according to this page, includes:

Assault Squads
Rervers
Incursors
Inceptors
Centurion Assault Squads
Bikes
Land Speeders

Now, that's an illegal army, but add an HQ and you could easily make a legal army. And honestly? It wouldn't be the best. But it'd be fine on the table.

You have, obviously, fast-moving elements.
You have a solid rock in the form of Centurion Assault Squads.
You have troops from Incursors.
You have long-range support from Land Speeders, as well as the ability to easily Deep Strike tough, killy units near the enemy.

tneva82 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-I'm not asking for mono Nurgle to be a top tier, Grand Tournament winning army.

I would like it to be a viable force in its own right. And a reasonably varied one-hell, a single planet could have tens of millions of Nurgle Daemons, which is already more Marines than exist at all.


Mono nurgle is viable. Maybe not as shooting army but hey guess what? Not every army can do every phase well. Tau isn't going to roll over units in melee, sisters aren't going to roflstomp anybody in psychic phase, eldar aren't going to grind through war of attrition...

If nurgle should be powerful in shooting as well give tau then nurgle daemon beating durability and melee abilities as well then.
A good Tau player still uses melee-they can easily tie something up with something that has FLY in order to deny enemy shooting while still blasting away freely on their own.

And I don't want to be a shooty force-I'm fine with being a melee-FOCUSED force. But as it stands, for 2,700 points of Nurgle Daemons, all with Ranged weapons, all within range and not having moved for the heavy weapons, against a Primaris unit outside of cover, the average is slightly over a full squad. I'd like to be able to participate in the shooting phase in a meaningful fashion. It can be a weakness, but it should not be that glaring.

(And before you ask, Necrons should have more interaction with the Psychic Phase via C'Tan (offensively) and Gloom Prisms or similar devices (for defense), while Tau should get psychic auxiliaries.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 21:21:16


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-I'm not asking for mono Nurgle to be a top tier, Grand Tournament winning army.

I would like it to be a viable force in its own right.
I think this is the crux of the issue. This is your own stipulation that is at odds with the reality of the game. The game designers have made tools available. Saying your army is a "mono-Nurgle daemon army" is an arbitrary distinction that isn't supported by the game rules. You might as well have said "I want my army entirely composed of Plague Bearers to be able to win games."

To answer your thought experiment: just because you're allowed to take a bad composition, doesn't mean it's intended. In the modern game, special rules function on a detachment basis. If you need to include more shooting, then include a different Nurgle faction in a different detachment. Like Chaos Space Marines or Cultists, who actually bring guns.

   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 DarkHound wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-I'm not asking for mono Nurgle to be a top tier, Grand Tournament winning army.

I would like it to be a viable force in its own right.
I think this is the crux of the issue. This is your own stipulation that is at odds with the reality of the game. The game designers have made tools available. Saying your army is a "mono-Nurgle daemon army" is an arbitrary distinction that isn't supported by the game rules. You might as well have said "I want my army entirely composed of Plague Bearers to be able to win games."

To answer your thought experiment: just because you're allowed to take a bad composition, doesn't mean it's intended. In the modern game, special rules function on a detachment basis. If you need to include more shooting, then include a different Nurgle faction in a different detachment. Like Chaos Space Marines or Cultists, who actually bring guns.
So why is a Nurgle Daemon army any less valid than a Black Templars army? Or a Valhallan army? Bor'kan?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
A Fast Attack Space Marine army is fluffy because I decided to build a collection around the 8th Company.

@DETATCHMENT: A hah! So Build your Nurgle Daemon detatchment, then take two detatchments of Death Guard. Boom, old school fluffy Nurgle army.
Death Guard aren't daemons. They're Marines.

This page of the Lexicanum says the 8th Company is comprised of Close Support Squads. Which, according to this page, includes:

Assault Squads
Rervers
Incursors
Inceptors
Centurion Assault Squads
Bikes
Land Speeders

Now, that's an illegal army, but add an HQ and you could easily make a legal army. And honestly? It wouldn't be the best. But it'd be fine on the table.

You have, obviously, fast-moving elements.
You have a solid rock in the form of Centurion Assault Squads.
You have troops from Incursors.
You have long-range support from Land Speeders, as well as the ability to easily Deep Strike tough, killy units near the enemy.

tneva82 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-I'm not asking for mono Nurgle to be a top tier, Grand Tournament winning army.

I would like it to be a viable force in its own right. And a reasonably varied one-hell, a single planet could have tens of millions of Nurgle Daemons, which is already more Marines than exist at all.


Mono nurgle is viable. Maybe not as shooting army but hey guess what? Not every army can do every phase well. Tau isn't going to roll over units in melee, sisters aren't going to roflstomp anybody in psychic phase, eldar aren't going to grind through war of attrition...

If nurgle should be powerful in shooting as well give tau then nurgle daemon beating durability and melee abilities as well then.
A good Tau player still uses melee-they can easily tie something up with something that has FLY in order to deny enemy shooting while still blasting away freely on their own.

And I don't want to be a shooty force-I'm fine with being a melee-FOCUSED force. But as it stands, for 2,700 points of Nurgle Daemons, all with Ranged weapons, all within range and not having moved for the heavy weapons, against a Primaris unit outside of cover, the average is slightly over a full squad. I'd like to be able to participate in the shooting phase in a meaningful fashion. It can be a weakness, but it should not be that glaring.

(And before you ask, Necrons should have more interaction with the Psychic Phase via C'Tan (offensively) and Gloom Prisms or similar devices (for defense), while Tau should get psychic auxiliaries.)

Now remove all the Primaris and Centurions, because they're all dead to me

And I don't care wether it's viable or not, the point is I don't demand that it be viable. If I choose to constrain the units I use out of a book, I understand that I am the one responsible for the consequences of that choice. You are choosing mono-nurgle, Imo that's kinda on you to deal with that constraint.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

There's been a lot of weirdness with Chaos where, unlike something like Loyalist Marines, a lot of stuff has to share a book, and GW can't quite decide if they actually want each subfaction to function independently or be a cohesive whole, and think that just because say, Slaanesh or Nurgle has something, that it covers that bases for the entire codex, even though a Khornate or Tzeentch player may never try and take such units or have access to those capabilities/stratagems/warlord traits/etc.


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
A Fast Attack Space Marine army is fluffy because I decided to build a collection around the 8th Company.

@DETATCHMENT: A hah! So Build your Nurgle Daemon detatchment, then take two detatchments of Death Guard. Boom, old school fluffy Nurgle army.
Death Guard aren't daemons. They're Marines.

This page of the Lexicanum says the 8th Company is comprised of Close Support Squads. Which, according to this page, includes:

Assault Squads
Rervers
Incursors
Inceptors
Centurion Assault Squads
Bikes
Land Speeders

Now, that's an illegal army, but add an HQ and you could easily make a legal army. And honestly? It wouldn't be the best. But it'd be fine on the table.

You have, obviously, fast-moving elements.
You have a solid rock in the form of Centurion Assault Squads.
You have troops from Incursors.
You have long-range support from Land Speeders, as well as the ability to easily Deep Strike tough, killy units near the enemy.

tneva82 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Again-I'm not asking for mono Nurgle to be a top tier, Grand Tournament winning army.

I would like it to be a viable force in its own right. And a reasonably varied one-hell, a single planet could have tens of millions of Nurgle Daemons, which is already more Marines than exist at all.


Mono nurgle is viable. Maybe not as shooting army but hey guess what? Not every army can do every phase well. Tau isn't going to roll over units in melee, sisters aren't going to roflstomp anybody in psychic phase, eldar aren't going to grind through war of attrition...

If nurgle should be powerful in shooting as well give tau then nurgle daemon beating durability and melee abilities as well then.
A good Tau player still uses melee-they can easily tie something up with something that has FLY in order to deny enemy shooting while still blasting away freely on their own.

And I don't want to be a shooty force-I'm fine with being a melee-FOCUSED force. But as it stands, for 2,700 points of Nurgle Daemons, all with Ranged weapons, all within range and not having moved for the heavy weapons, against a Primaris unit outside of cover, the average is slightly over a full squad. I'd like to be able to participate in the shooting phase in a meaningful fashion. It can be a weakness, but it should not be that glaring.

(And before you ask, Necrons should have more interaction with the Psychic Phase via C'Tan (offensively) and Gloom Prisms or similar devices (for defense), while Tau should get psychic auxiliaries.)

Now remove all the Primaris and Centurions, because they're all dead to me

And I don't care wether it's viable or not, the point is I don't demand that it be viable. If I choose to constrain the units I use out of a book, I understand that I am the one responsible for the consequences of that choice. You are choosing mono-nurgle, Imo that's kinda on you to deal with that constraint.
Why yes, when you choose three units out of a book with 75 units, you're going to struggle. Especially when said units are never presented as being able to make an army on their own.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






^beside the point, and the argument stands. You're still artificially limiting yourself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 21:40:54


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







 JNAProductions wrote:
 DarkHound wrote:
To answer your thought experiment: just because you're allowed to take a bad composition, doesn't mean it's intended. In the modern game, special rules function on a detachment basis. If you need to include more shooting, then include a different Nurgle faction in a different detachment. Like Chaos Space Marines or Cultists, who actually bring guns.
So why is a Nurgle Daemon army any less valid than a Black Templars army? Or a Valhallan army? Bor'kan?
 JNAProductions wrote:
Why yes, when you choose three units out of a book with 75 units, you're going to struggle. Especially when said units are never presented as being able to make an army on their own.
Yup.

   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 JNAProductions wrote:
[Why yes, when you choose three units out of a book with 75 units, you're going to struggle. Especially when said units are never presented as being able to make an army on their own.

Show me where Nurgle daemons were ever stated to be a stand-alone army? There is no single codex that is just for daemons of Nurgle, so the assumption is that you're supposed to use the entire codex and not just a fraction of it.

Playing mono Nurgle daemons is playing with a hand-tied behind your back as it wasn't intended to be done.
   
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I feel like mono-god daemons are in the same boat as Knights: they can be played as a sole faction, but they have some glaring weaknesses, and are really intended to be used as soup.

You can take mono-god CSM+daemons and have a complete army, or take multi-god daemons-only and have a complete army, but just daemons of just one god gives you a very narrow army list.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Nurgle expanded further or given credible shooting, but I also don't see it as a problem to have a mini-faction that needs to either accept deficiencies in some areas or take allies to shore them up.

Now that 8th makes soup quite easy, I'd like to see more limited-roster subfactions that can be souped into other armies- not everything needs to be a full-fledged standalone force, IMO.
   
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 catbarf wrote:
I feel like mono-god daemons are in the same boat as Knights: they can be played as a sole faction, but they have some glaring weaknesses, and are really intended to be used as soup.

You can take mono-god CSM+daemons and have a complete army, or take multi-god daemons-only and have a complete army, but just daemons of just one god gives you a very narrow army list.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Nurgle expanded further or given credible shooting, but I also don't see it as a problem to have a mini-faction that needs to either accept deficiencies in some areas or take allies to shore them up.

Now that 8th makes soup quite easy, I'd like to see more limited-roster subfactions that can be souped into other armies- not everything needs to be a full-fledged standalone force, IMO.

I'm in total agreement with this. It'd be cool if the various mono-god daemon builds were stronger, but also not all 'factions' need to be viable as stand-alone armies.

And to the origination of the thread, these sub factions aren't proof that melee is useless.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:

I'm in total agreement with this. It'd be cool if the various mono-god daemon builds were stronger, but also not all 'factions' need to be viable as stand-alone armies.
To be fair, for something like the Chaos gods, where they used to literally have animosity rules that made their units fight if they got too close together, with some of the most clearly defined distinctions of any in the 40k universe going back decades, this seems like one of those things where if *anything* should be made viable as a subfaction, it should be the big 4 Chaos Gods, especially as opposed to individual codex-adherent Space Marine chapters that GW lavishes such attention on

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 22:05:13


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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

I'm in total agreement with this. It'd be cool if the various mono-god daemon builds were stronger, but also not all 'factions' need to be viable as stand-alone armies.
To be fair, for something like the Chaos gods, where they used to literally have animosity rules that made their units fight if they got too close together, with some of the most clearly defined distinctions of any in the 40k universe going back decades, this seems like one of those things where if *anything* should be made viable as a subfaction, it should be the big 4 Chaos Gods, especially as opposed to individual codex-adherent Space Marine chapters that GW lavishes such attention on

I semi-agree. . . but I'm also old school in a way that I'm sure you'll recognize. Back in my day Chaos Marines and Daemons shared the same book! (along with renegades and heretics iirc.) So when I think of a mono-god army, I think of Daemons, CSMs and Cultist elements all banded together in sort of uber-deadly ramshackle force. That's the sort of thing I want Chaos to be really, really good at. When I collect my chaos models, that's the imagery I build towards, with Renegade Knights as the modern add-on to the old-school forces. Imo the way Daemons should be getting ranged firepower is by driving corrupted Superheavies with daemonic upgrades around.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Annandale, VA

 Insectum7 wrote:
I semi-agree. . . but I'm also old school in a way that I'm sure you'll recognize. Back in my day Chaos Marines and Daemons shared the same book! (along with renegades and heretics iirc.) So when I think of a mono-god army, I think of Daemons, CSMs and Cultist elements all banded together in sort of uber-deadly ramshackle force. That's the sort of thing I want Chaos to be really, really good at. When I collect my chaos models, that's the imagery I build towards, with Renegade Knights as the modern add-on to the old-school forces. Imo the way Daemons should be getting ranged firepower is by driving corrupted Superheavies with daemonic upgrades around.


Well, you're certainly in good company. I thought it was a bad move to split daemons out from CSM, and multi-god all-daemon armies have always felt very weird to me versus single-god mixed-mortals-and-daemons armies, but I also try to recognize that this is my nostalgia talking and a lot of folks like the freedom to mix Chaos factions, so YMMV.

That said, it does seem clear to me that the design intent is for Nurgle daemons to be primarily melee, with daemon engines providing the closest thing they have to daemonic shooting- like I said, I wouldn't be opposed to some shooting daemons, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/11 22:33:12


 
   
 
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