Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Starting this thread as the last one is now over the necroposting limit.
With a focus purely on minis, how would you revamp the IG model line if you were put in charge of such things? I personally- ignoring that this would be damned expensive- would introduce 2 new lines, and 6 new kits.
Short-coated guard would be initially released with infantry/HWT/Command kits, initially as steel legion. The same for longcoated guard, but for Valhallan.
At the same time, I would release upgrade sprues, for the both new lines, and the preexisting Cadian/Catachan.
For Short-Coated guard, I would release a Tallarn upgrade, with heads and appropriate parts. For Long-Coated, I would release new heads/torsos for Vostroyan, and new heads/torsos for Savlar chem-dogs (repurposed parts from the Genestealers kit).
Then, upgrade kits for Cadians; new heads/torsos for Mordians and Praetorians. For Catachans, new weapon options and parts for Armageddon Ork Hunters.
Obviously this will never happen, but a guy can dream.
That was quite a rambling post. Sorry.
See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason.
GW's gotten pretty good at releasing multi-unit kits. With Skitarii, for example, you get a duplicate set of arms and a duplicate set of heads as part of the core box. So, rather than just upgrade kits, I could see them doing a core infantry set that can be built as multiple regiments through alternate parts.
I would see a kit being something like this:
-A single set of weapon arms
-Optional shoulder pads
-Armored and unarmored torsos
-A single set of tunic legs
-Cadian and Steel Legion heads
That gives you the ability to build either Cadians or Steel Legion from the core set, differentiated by shoulder pads, torsos, and heads.
From there, upgrade sprues for the remaining regiments are pretty straightforward:
Mordians/Praetorians: Heads and shoulder epaulettes
Valhallans/Vostroyans: Heads and legs
Tallarn: Heads and backpacks (based on this art)
This leaves out Catachans, who I guess would probably form the core of a 'streamlined' aesthetic (fatigues and bare arms), with potential options for Kanak or Tanith.
I get that detailing in 28mm Heroic plastic isn't super easy but I'd make the models a little more combatty and less dress uniformy. I get the idea behind units like the Mordians et al but even the Cadian and Catachan figures are real light on actual combat equipment.
Same with the Marines TBH.
I would very much like the idea of plastic Praetorians, that's what my IG army is and with scale creep my original metal Praetorians look like children next to my plastic Cadians.
I'd also like to see separate equipment/head sprues available. Maybe some autogun setups, or different pattern lasguns and things like backpacks. And different heads.
I get that keeping costs down is important so they can't ship a stack of sprues with all different options in them, I do like the idea of a couple of core unit designs but what I'd REALLY like to see is their online ordering ramped back up to near what it used to be.
Want Mordian torsos with Catachan legs with Autogun weapons and Praetorian heads? Click these drop downs and ta dah! It arrives.
I've still got a Corteaz Daemon hammer and Grimnar terminator body from when I ordered the bitz to build a custom project. But wholsesale, and large scale. But now with a whole squad or army even.
DalekCheese wrote: Starting this thread as the last one is now over the necroposting limit.
With a focus purely on minis, how would you revamp the IG model line if you were put in charge of such things? I personally- ignoring that this would be damned expensive- would introduce 2 new lines, and 6 new kits.
Short-coated guard would be initially released with infantry/HWT/Command kits, initially as steel legion. The same for longcoated guard, but for Valhallan.
At the same time, I would release upgrade sprues, for the both new lines, and the preexisting Cadian/Catachan.
For Short-Coated guard, I would release a Tallarn upgrade, with heads and appropriate parts. For Long-Coated, I would release new heads/torsos for Vostroyan, and new heads/torsos for Savlar chem-dogs (repurposed parts from the Genestealers kit).
Then, upgrade kits for Cadians; new heads/torsos for Mordians and Praetorians. For Catachans, new weapon options and parts for Armageddon Ork Hunters.
Obviously this will never happen, but a guy can dream.
That was quite a rambling post. Sorry.
I would do one new "Universal Main Infantry" kit, to replace Cadians and cover almost all the others except Catachan.
It would have:
10 plate carrier torsos basically like the current ones. Importantly, like the current ones, they need to interface with a universal set of legs. Cutting at the belt is probably a still a good idea. 5 male torsos, 5 female torsos.
10 "tunic" legs that complete the look of the modern Cadian, [or Mordian, or Praetorian, or any other "short coated" guardsman].
10 "greatcoat" legs that complete the look of a winter greatcoat
The leg sets should interface with torso basically like the modern ones do, so it looks seamless whether you have a long coat or a short coat & pants. Some of the legs should be kneeling, some of them should be running, some of them should be standing. About 5 different poses should do.
11 modern helmeted heads. (10+1 vox) Some should have sunglasses. The vox head isn't really idetifiable, but the other heads should be half & half male/female
12 ushanka heads. (6+1 headset female, 6+1 headset male)
11 gas-masked & stahlhelm heads. (10+1 vox)
"Enough" unhelmeted heads, at least one male and one female with a headset, the rest for sergeants so there's enough unique looking sergeants.
Modern, Gas Masks, and Furry Hats should basically cover the popular IG themes & looks. Other heads could be "IG Infantry upgrade sprues" like the SM chapter upgrade sprues, which would really allow you to go wild with having different kinds of IG uniform headgear.
12 Lasguns. Or at least more than 10, some with bayonets, some without. One lasgun arm should have a sergeant's patch.
1 Chainsword
1 Power Sword
1 Power Fist
1 Plasma Pistol
1 Laspistol
1 Boltgun
1 Vox Caster with an arm options to be holding the mic or to use the helmet voice box
1 Meltagun, 1 Plasmagun, 1 Grenade Launcher, 1 Flamer.
10 Rucksacks. Important features: bedrolls, e-tools, mess kit
Frag Grenades, extra ammo, and canteens for everybody
Soldier Crap. For decorating bases, decorating tanks, decorating objectives, or just having guys carry around with them. Extra lasguns, ammo boxes, loose E-tools, cigarettes and card boxes, ration boxes, discarded magazines, helmets, etc.
1 new "Universal Command Squad" kit:
Basically the same options as the current command squad kit, but with the head & leg options of the Universal Infantry Kit, and a good number of female torsos and heads for the officers.
And even more soldier gak, enough to decorate a command post, like map tubes, those funny periscope binoculars, sand bags, etc.
1 newish "Universal Heavy Weapons" kit:
Use the same weapons sprue, but add legs and heads to the infantry sprue.
One new Vehicle Artillery kit:
It would build:
Basilisk
Medusa
Griffon
Colossus
It would have no less than 4 crew torsos in CVC gear, mixed male & female, doing different things [aiming, loading, setting fuses, checking a chart, etc.] with a healthy collection of heads with vehicle crew headgear [CVC helmets, tanker hats, etc]
It would have a big pile of "tank crap". All the aforementioned "soldier crap" & rucksacks, plus TRACKS, tow cables, track breaking tools, sandbags, fuel barrels, jerry cans, etc.
A number of "Infantry Platoon Upgrade Sprues". These would have like ~50 mixed male/female heads with a special kind of headgear [including several associated officer & radio heads] and a little bit of soldier crap.
Options: US M1 Helmets, Commonwealth brimmed helmets, Berets, Cavalry Stetsons, Plinth Helmets, Caps, Turbans, etc.
A "Tank Crap Sprue"
It's got tank crap for Chimerae and for Leman Russes. Extra tracks, schurzen and/or slat armors, sandbags, tow lines, jerry cans, extra lasguns, the crew's belongings, spare road wheels, and a bunch of options for tank commanders [male and female] both standing out of their hatch and with just their head sticking out. Different poses for them too, including "firing the heavy stubber/storm bolter", "spotting with binoculars", and "just looking around". Possibly include an option for even more guns to be fitted to the tank like the M2 that M4's have mounted for infantry to use.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.
With that out of the way, there is no realistic way to discuss how to redo the model line without talking about rules as well as models. The looks and gear are too intrinsically linked to realistically discuss this without going too crazy.
Scrap the book's setup for <Regiment> units. No more "infantry squad" or "veteran squad" or "heavy weapon squad" or "special weapon squad". It's now broken down into "Conscripts"/"Honor Guard" styles(Troops choice with no armor, just a uniform and a rifle--6+ saves. These would be your Valhallans, Mordians, Praetorians, whatever style of infantry. Theoretically, Conscripts and HG could be split into two distinctive profiles but we won't go that far tonight), "Light Infantry"(Troops choice--think Tanith/Belladon/Steel Legion. They'd have a flak vest with no pauldrons or leg protection--some might have helmets but mostly you'd be seeing forage caps or bared heads--6+ saves but with a negative modifier to being hit while in cover), "Mainline Infantry"(Troops choice--Current Cadian level of protection--pauldrons, vest, helmets--5+ saves and an ability to 'dig in' for a cover save) and "Grenadiers"(Kasrkin/Vostroyan levels of protection. Troops choice with some weird kit so they do not directly compete with Scions--4+ save with Smoke Grenades as an option). Look at the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book, Black Crusade book, and the various art we've seen over the years to see a good example for how one should expect these things to look. LI, MI, and Grenadiers all come standard with Laspistols, CCWs, and Lasguns--'Conscripts' don't.
I'm sure some of your first thoughts are: "But how do Guard work then?! We lose our Heavy Weapon Squads! We lose our Special Weapon Squads!". Frankly, it's time those things got ditched. It's time to see something interesting and different start manifesting with Guard. This is a good time for a start to it.
'Conscript' level squads: 10 models, laslocks(24" S3 AP-1 Rapid Fire 2 if the unit is stationary for that turn's Movement but can't be FRFSRF'd if we leave Orders as is or longer range and Rapid Fire 1) instead of lasguns, 2 in 5 can take grenade launchers instead of their laslocks or demolition charges instead of their laslocks and CCWs. No 'Sergeant' equivalents baseline--can purchase one. SEQ gets access to 'Sergeant Weapons'(CCWs and Pistols fall into this category) and is an additional model to the squad, not a replacement for a model in the squad(to avoid the nonsense of 'bUt yOu cAn'T hAvE aLl ThOsE sPeCiaL wEaPoNs BeCaUsE sErGeAnTs ArEn'T a NoRmAl TrOoPeR!!!!" even remotely cropping up).
'Light Infantry' squads: 10 models, lasguns(as they are now) all around (including Sergeants). Can Infiltrate with a Stratagem. 2 in 10 models can take special issue weapons(heavy stubber with a bipod that can be carried by one guy, missile launchers, sniper/marksman rifles, flamers, plasma, melta, etc would be classified under these) . An additional 2 Guardsmen on a single base can be purchased for the squad as a 'Fire Support Team' that gets placed as a separate unit. FST gets access to the stuff we all know and love right now: lascannons, heavy bolters, autocannons, and mortars...and the weapons all gain a 'move OR fire' trait instead of simply being Heavy. Sergeant gets access to the Sergeant Weapons but baseline are equipped with lasguns.
'Mainline Infantry Squads' have the same Special Issue Weapon Options as the Light Infantry Squads--but get access to two Fire Support Teams rather than one. Additionally, can swap their Lasguns for Heavy Lasguns(a thing we've had in the fluff but never really have had as part of the game) for an additional 6" of range and 'on hit rolls of 6' ability that causes a Wound without you needing to roll to Wound at the sacrifice of not getting to to use their additional shot for FRFSRF purposes(so you'd get 3 shots rather than 4). Sergeants get access to the Sergeant weapons, come baseline with lasguns. Can purchase a Heavy Lasgun.
Grenadiers are going to be where things get weird. The goal is to create a distinctive unit that isn't just Scions But With <Regiment>. So no native Deep Strike or Infiltrate. With that stated, they come standard with Hellguns which will be S4 AP-1 D1 and are Assault 3 or Pistol 3. There's no Fire Support Team squad options in this case. Instead, the squad will be limited to a 'unique' pattern(call it Anvilus or something--there's Forge Worlds that specialize in weird stuff like this) of Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, or Heavy Stubber. In all 3 instances they're classified as 'Assault' weapons and can Move and Fire but have half the range of their Fire Support Team variants...and are bespoked options on the unit rather than part of Special Issue Weapons. The standard Special Issue Weapons are additionally available to the squad.
Now here's where we start to get into fun options!
Light Infantry theme? That's where we might see Fast Attack or Elite choices show up. Stuff like Sniper Teams(60mm based, get access to artillery spotting ala Master of Ordnance but aren't characters. Purchased as a 1-3 'unit' that can split off and get deployed ala vehicle squadrons. If stationary, can treat their rifles as rapid fire instead of heavy), Reconnaissance/Saboteur Teams with Infiltrate natively available and abilities allowing you to mine the field up.
Mainline Infantry theme? These would be the basis for our new versions of Heavy Support options: Rapier Motorized Carriages and Sabre Defense Platforms.
Grenadiers would get an Elite Command Squad deal, wherein they can issue Orders as though they're Officers.
And because I mentioned Scions, I'd additionally add a few things for them to boot. There's a gorgeous layout in the Sabbat book of a Volpone Blueblood officer that would be a perfect inspiration for a Scion Rough Rider setup or an Elite bodyguard squad for Commissars.
Kanluwen wrote: Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.
Uhh... War Movies has been the IG theme for like forever. It's literally what defines the IG as a faction in the world of 40k, being War Movie Tropes in space, and it's what's defined them since they're very inception back in like 1989.
Hell, "trope overdosed" is what defines 40k. It's like how 40k factions are made: "reach into the bag, grab out uh...."
What are you expecting for aesthetics to "avert trash tropes"? [that are not in fact seen in infinity, because Infinity looks like generic Halo Modern Block Greebled Power Armor]
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/16 00:26:24
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Well, I'll give the response everyone on Dakka will hate.
IG dex + supplements for each regiment.
Rough riders return- given that AM is getting cavalry, I think this is guaranteed to happen. Those things are going to sell like N-95's.
One unique vehicle variant for each regiment. One box for each regiment that builds, Troops, Vets, Heavies or Specials, but ALL very distinctly regimental.
More guard fliers. Might only need one, but since I like lots, lets go for two- one would be a bomber and one would be a fighter since we've already got a Transport. Keep these generic rather than regiment locking them.All three flyers sold as an Airwing box set with a plastic master of the fleet. While we're at it, plastic up the other advisors too.
New Wyrdvanes and a new Primaris Psyker, though keep the old one too because he rules.
I want a new HQ who is an Abhuman Auxiilia officer; the box is dual build- one variant designed to work with Ogryns and another to work with Ratlings. Aww heck, you know what? Release a box of Squats and add a third option to the officer kit designed to work with them. We're wishlisting, right?
BTW, that Squat box is a viability test for GW to give them a small codex release of roughly the same size as Harlequins or Custodes, but that's a topic for another thread.
Oh yeah, here's the best part; regiment boxes are also available as kill teams with each box containing a unique sculpt for a leader- Platoon commander level, because that's the other thing you have to bring back. Having only company level HQ makes it hard to play guard in properly scaled escalation campaigns. The kill teams would be released first; their models would be monopose. 2-3 months after release, the multipart regiment boxes drop with the dex. The unique new kits with each regiment drop with that regiment's supplement.
I don't have my dex to hand- lent it to a friend- but I liked Special weapon teams- drop two in Chimera and you're good to go. They also fit in the Chimera with a command squad. Ditto on valkyries- love those capacity 12 vehicles. With guard's inferior BS, it helps to have extra shots on specials, so three in a unit with only three regular troopers as a tax... Just not sure why you want to get rid of that. It's just so flexible to have multiple MSU combinations that share transports.
As for heavy weapons teams, I think that's wicked characterful that it takes two standard humans to operate the same equipment as a lone Devastator. I'm less attached to them than my specials, but I do think they are iconic.
As for vets, they could use a set of veteran abilities like Aspect warriors have and Harlequin characters are getting. Fix' em. Don't cut' em.
Basically, if you want honour guard, let's go ahead and make those. You want a dedicated box for conscripts? Okay, let's do that too. Personally, I also would like penal legion troopers with explosive collars to take it back to Rogue Trader days, and I don't think they would be regiment locked, because no regiment would want to taint their uniforms. But why does it have to come at the expense of special weapons squads, vets and heavy teams?
The way forward is more. Not less.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 04:47:11
PenitentJake wrote: Well, I'll give the response everyone on Dakka will hate.
IG dex + supplements for each regiment.
One unique vehicle variant for each regiment. One box for each regiment that builds, Troops, Vets, Heavies or Specials, but ALL very distinctly regimental.
Rough riders return- given that AM is getting cavalry, I think this is guaranteed to happen. Those things are going to sell like N-95's.
More guard fliers. Might only need one, but since I like lots, lets go for two- one would be a bomber and one would be a fighter since we've already got a Transport.
All three flyers sold as an Airwing box set with a plastic master of the fleet. While we're at it, plastic up the other advisors too.
New Wyrdvanes and a new Primaris, though keep the old primaris in circulation too because he rules.
Oh yeah, here's the best part; regiment boxes are also available as kill teams with each box containing a unique sculpt for a leader- Platoon commander level, because that's the other thing you have to bring back. Having only company level HQ makes it hard to play guard in properly scaled escalation campaigns.
The kill teams would be released first; their models would be monopose. 2-3 months after release, the multipart regiment boxes drop with the dex. The unique new kits with each regiment drop with that regiment's supplement.
The way forward is more. Not less.
Space Marines don't overtax the supply chain by having four different base Codexes because all four of them have 90%+ identical models, and the basic core models for all of them are identical. Trying to do sub-faction Codexes with different infantry ranges would be hilariously impractical.
Kanluwen wrote: Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.
What does that leave you with?
Cadians are pretty modern.
Catachan are pretty Vietnam trope.
Praetorians are pretty Zulu movie trope. And pith helmets were fairly widely used military equipment in some areas.
DKoK are pretty WWI tropey.
Rough Riders are Lawrence of Arabia in Space.
Mordian are USMC A1's in Space.
Vostroyans are French Imperial Guard from the 1800's with scifi bits and an attitude, in Space.
Who've I missed out? Aanyway, you get the gists. Each army has it's own niche trope and that's how they came about.
Stetsons? No, but Boonie hats? Slouch hats? The requirements to protect people from sunlight hasn't changed much in 40 000 years. If you don't want helmets then why not a rimmed hat?
I would love to have the ability to produce light or heavy infantry from the same box but in all honesty I'd just prefer a way of "realistically" representing First, Second and Third line gear loudouts.
{EDIT not Rough Riders, Tallarn are Lawrence of Arabia. Damn it. Original Rough Riders are semi Mongol.}
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 08:34:59
Kanluwen wrote: Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.
What does that leave you with?
Savlar Chem-dogs
Seriously, hear me out - GW wants their marines cleaner, the easiest way to do that is contrast them with some real scum of the Guard. Lots of rebreathers, backpacks and bags, ragged looking clothing, etc. A new infantry kit and an easy tie-in with new trench or penal colony terrain.
I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy.
First and foremost they would need to get the scale right.
Imo, given their popularity, plastic multipart DKoK kits are way overdue.
Looks as if Catachans may be on the long term horizon given some of the tester models of late...Marbo and the revealed Captain (or whatever he is)
Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you.
Interesting, there seems to be a lot of desire for one highly modular box, as opposed to multiple boxes. I personally don’t particularly like the idea of homogenising the Guard.
See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason.
DalekCheese wrote: Interesting, there seems to be a lot of desire for one highly modular box, as opposed to multiple boxes. I personally don’t particularly like the idea of homogenising the Guard.
The thing behind a single, highly modular box is you could customize it how you want. With what they have now you're stuck with what you get and kitbashing requires multiple purchases (which is why I don't think we'll ever see a single box with options).
Being customizable would produce less homogenization IMHO. Currently my Praetorian army looks like Cadians in funny colours because that's exactly what it is outside of a single squad of original run of white metal Praetorians.THAT's homogenization for you.
I would go with a "Less is More" approach:
- One type of appearance, resembling the metal Cadian models: thick jackets, no hard armor other than the small shoulder pads, simpler helmets, and more energy-weapon-looking lasguns. They would retain the new Cadian belt gear bits (the flask, grenade, and ammo pouch) and they would be split up like the plastic Catachans: head, torso, legs, two arms, and a separate gun.
- The basic Infantry Squad kit would be 10 standard guys, 1 extra torso with a tactical sling backpack, 1 extra head with a gasmask, 1 extra head with a hat, 1 extra arm holding a sword, 1 extra arm holding a laspistol, and 1 of each special weapon (flamer, grenade launcher, sniper rifle, meltagun, plasma gun).
- The Heavy Weapons Squad kit would be 6 guys with crouching legs, 1 extra pointing arm, 1 extra binocular-holding arm, 1 extra ammo feeding arm, 1 extra head with a gasmask, 1 of each heavy weapon (mortar, heavy bolter, autocannon, missile launcher, lascannon), 3 small boxes, and 3 small sandbag piles.
- The Command Squad kit would be 5 guys with extra parts for a medic, a standard-bearer, and an officer. The kit would come with all the options for the officer (pistols and melee weapons).
- Each kit would also contain some extra bits like a vox-caster, purity seals, etc.
These kits would be easy to make and quick to sell, perfect for GW. The players would have their new models and plenty of options to convert due to the kits' simplicity.
Kanluwen wrote: Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.
With that out of the way, there is no realistic way to discuss how to redo the model line without talking about rules as well as models.
Spoiler:
The looks and gear are too intrinsically linked to realistically discuss this without going too crazy.
Scrap the book's setup for <Regiment> units. No more "infantry squad" or "veteran squad" or "heavy weapon squad" or "special weapon squad". It's now broken down into "Conscripts"/"Honor Guard" styles(Troops choice with no armor, just a uniform and a rifle--6+ saves. These would be your Valhallans, Mordians, Praetorians, whatever style of infantry. Theoretically, Conscripts and HG could be split into two distinctive profiles but we won't go that far tonight), "Light Infantry"(Troops choice--think Tanith/Belladon/Steel Legion. They'd have a flak vest with no pauldrons or leg protection--some might have helmets but mostly you'd be seeing forage caps or bared heads--6+ saves but with a negative modifier to being hit while in cover), "Mainline Infantry"(Troops choice--Current Cadian level of protection--pauldrons, vest, helmets--5+ saves and an ability to 'dig in' for a cover save) and "Grenadiers"(Kasrkin/Vostroyan levels of protection. Troops choice with some weird kit so they do not directly compete with Scions--4+ save with Smoke Grenades as an option). Look at the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book, Black Crusade book, and the various art we've seen over the years to see a good example for how one should expect these things to look. LI, MI, and Grenadiers all come standard with Laspistols, CCWs, and Lasguns--'Conscripts' don't.
I'm sure some of your first thoughts are: "But how do Guard work then?! We lose our Heavy Weapon Squads! We lose our Special Weapon Squads!". Frankly, it's time those things got ditched. It's time to see something interesting and different start manifesting with Guard. This is a good time for a start to it.
'Conscript' level squads: 10 models, laslocks(24" S3 AP-1 Rapid Fire 2 if the unit is stationary for that turn's Movement but can't be FRFSRF'd if we leave Orders as is or longer range and Rapid Fire 1) instead of lasguns, 2 in 5 can take grenade launchers instead of their laslocks or demolition charges instead of their laslocks and CCWs. No 'Sergeant' equivalents baseline--can purchase one. SEQ gets access to 'Sergeant Weapons'(CCWs and Pistols fall into this category) and is an additional model to the squad, not a replacement for a model in the squad(to avoid the nonsense of 'bUt yOu cAn'T hAvE aLl ThOsE sPeCiaL wEaPoNs BeCaUsE sErGeAnTs ArEn'T a NoRmAl TrOoPeR!!!!" even remotely cropping up).
'Light Infantry' squads: 10 models, lasguns(as they are now) all around (including Sergeants). Can Infiltrate with a Stratagem. 2 in 10 models can take special issue weapons(heavy stubber with a bipod that can be carried by one guy, missile launchers, sniper/marksman rifles, flamers, plasma, melta, etc would be classified under these) . An additional 2 Guardsmen on a single base can be purchased for the squad as a 'Fire Support Team' that gets placed as a separate unit. FST gets access to the stuff we all know and love right now: lascannons, heavy bolters, autocannons, and mortars...and the weapons all gain a 'move OR fire' trait instead of simply being Heavy. Sergeant gets access to the Sergeant Weapons but baseline are equipped with lasguns.
'Mainline Infantry Squads' have the same Special Issue Weapon Options as the Light Infantry Squads--but get access to two Fire Support Teams rather than one. Additionally, can swap their Lasguns for Heavy Lasguns(a thing we've had in the fluff but never really have had as part of the game) for an additional 6" of range and 'on hit rolls of 6' ability that causes a Wound without you needing to roll to Wound at the sacrifice of not getting to to use their additional shot for FRFSRF purposes(so you'd get 3 shots rather than 4). Sergeants get access to the Sergeant weapons, come baseline with lasguns. Can purchase a Heavy Lasgun.
Grenadiers are going to be where things get weird. The goal is to create a distinctive unit that isn't just Scions But With <Regiment>. So no native Deep Strike or Infiltrate. With that stated, they come standard with Hellguns which will be S4 AP-1 D1 and are Assault 3 or Pistol 3. There's no Fire Support Team squad options in this case. Instead, the squad will be limited to a 'unique' pattern(call it Anvilus or something--there's Forge Worlds that specialize in weird stuff like this) of Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, or Heavy Stubber. In all 3 instances they're classified as 'Assault' weapons and can Move and Fire but have half the range of their Fire Support Team variants...and are bespoked options on the unit rather than part of Special Issue Weapons. The standard Special Issue Weapons are additionally available to the squad.
Now here's where we start to get into fun options!
Light Infantry theme? That's where we might see Fast Attack or Elite choices show up. Stuff like Sniper Teams(60mm based, get access to artillery spotting ala Master of Ordnance but aren't characters. Purchased as a 1-3 'unit' that can split off and get deployed ala vehicle squadrons. If stationary, can treat their rifles as rapid fire instead of heavy), Reconnaissance/Saboteur Teams with Infiltrate natively available and abilities allowing you to mine the field up.
Mainline Infantry theme? These would be the basis for our new versions of Heavy Support options: Rapier Motorized Carriages and Sabre Defense Platforms.
Grenadiers would get an Elite Command Squad deal, wherein they can issue Orders as though they're Officers.
And because I mentioned Scions, I'd additionally add a few things for them to boot. There's a gorgeous layout in the Sabbat book of a Volpone Blueblood officer that would be a perfect inspiration for a Scion Rough Rider setup or an Elite bodyguard squad for Commissars.
I think that we can look at changing models without changing rules. I don't really want to shelve my army. I am also quite conflicted about your opening lines. I think the only thing we can all agree on is that AM Infantry should cost 5 ppm.
Regarding aesthetics, I am of several minds. When I started out collecting IG in 1996 I went with Cadians. I'm a soldier, and they looked like fairly modern soldiers. I came to 40K from historicals (and "modern") but those were mostly 1:285th and 20mm scale. There wasn't much in 28mm, so the IG line let me scratch that hobby itch in a fun scale. I painted my Cadians like WW2 Germans, using three-colour camo for the vehicles. The 1999 3rd Edition Codex even has a picture of an Osprey Forces of Vietnam book in the painting section to show that "contemporary" schemes could be used for inspiration - including boonie hats. Other models are clearly painted like WW2 Germans.
The Catachans are pretty much Maj Dutch's team in Predator with the volume turned up to 11. The original Catachan Captain with a Powerfist is clearly Arnie. As others have pointed out, the IG line was influenced heavily by historical/movie styles.
Flash forward 20 years and there are plenty of hard-plastic multi-part 28mm toy soldiers made by different companies, and I see many AM armies on FLGS tables that are straight up Warlord Games models (either Bolt Action or Black Powder). The only new AM infantry kit that I am aware of is the plastic Scions. Their aesthetic is definitely not heavily based on historical soldiers, although the berets evoke an Airborne theme and the full helmets have that Prussian thing going.It's grown on me, and I've been building a Scions army. Who knew that tastes could change?
The AM line certainly needs a revamp. My gut says they will come up with something closer to the idea of the Scion line (maybe something like Ventrillans?) - less obviously drawn from a historical force but with a few elements that people would recognize. They will look to make their kit stand out from what is available from Warlord etc. I doubt we'd see Cadians since they blew Cadia up but who knows! I found the 2nd Edition Catachans silly but tolerable - I find the 3rd Ed plastic Catachans are just plain silly. And yes I have them too and they still see the tabletop. The latest special figure shows that they still hold the Catachans dear to their hearts, and I could get behind revamped Catachans (but on fewer steroids).
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
We cannot look at changing the models without changing the rules. End. of. Story. There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'. That's why we had such issues with Conscripts early on for 8th. It's why Veterans are such trash compared to standard infantry squads. There needs to be variation, and that variation can drive a rules shift that actually starts putting Guard into a design space that moves them from 'Skitarii/Tau but worse'.
Additionally, read some lore. Cadians were everywhere. Not all of them were on Cadia when it "blew up"(which in and of itself is incorrect--they even make mention of this with regards to Bile as he's using the "ruins of Cadia" for his nonsense), and it was a known factor for several editions now that Cadian 'pattern' gear was produced on so many various worlds that were devoted strictly to outfitting Cadia that with Cadia gone? That equipment has to go somewhere. And that's not even getting into the whole idea of settlements(Brimlock Dragoons, for example, were known to be first-generation Cadians who had settled a world they conquered) where the Cadian martial traditions existed.
Scions aren't Astra Militarum infantry. They're Militarum Tempestus, which is in and of itself part of a whooooooole other thing. They're not meant to be anything other than a continuation of an aesthetic we saw introduced with the Vostroyans(that of the pseudo-John Blanche vibes).
Additionally, there's two Catachan figures. We saw Sergeant 'Ripper' and now this unnamed Colonel figure. But they're the first time we've actually had something close to the artwork they've been putting out for Catachans since the Robin Cruddace-era book or Kopinski's stuff when they dropped the Heavy Weapons Teams that had art rather than models:
Spoiler:
And then of course there's the actual color plates in the Codex now for Catachans, which are nothing like the current models but clearly were the basis for what the two special edition models are.
Imo, given their popularity, plastic multipart DKoK kits are way overdue.
Yeah, no. I'd never do DKoK in plastic at this point--the look(greatcoat+gas mask) is too saturated into pop culture right now. It's generic SyFy Channel Bad Guy at this point. It also steps too much onto the toes of the Scions at this point.
Looks as if Catachans may be on the long term horizon given some of the tester models of late...Marbo and the revealed Captain (or whatever he is)
It's a Colonel. It said so on the box and the Community article. Marbo also wasn't "of late". He came out in 2017. There is also the store opening model, which is actually a named one(Sergeant 'Ripper'--female model with a Boltgun).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/16 15:46:36
Are you looking to discuss or just dictate to us how the AM design must be according to you? You're ordering me to go read some lore? Thanks. I've been playing Cadians since 1996, and yes I know that Cadia Stands. Doesn't make them the next box set (although I'd be happy to get new Cadians! or Catachans). The Tempestus Scions only exist as a force in 8th Ed as part of the Astra Militarum, taking the place of the old Stormtroopers etc in the range. They don't have their own section in the on-line store, although they do have their own Start Collecting Set. They offer a window into how the studio was thinking relatively recently, as opposed to the studio 25 years ago.
You are clearly very passionate about your design and have put a lot of thought into it, but your rules I can certainly take a pass on. They can absolutely design new models or update existing ones without changing the fundamental rules/organization for the line. Of course, they have certainly changed "platoon/company" structures between editions. I've gamed/suffered through pretty much all of them! We'll see what the studio comes out with.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
Kanluwen wrote: There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'.
Uhm... I suppose you are aware that this 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns' is the entire stick of the Imperial Guard as far as their infantry goes, and one of the most defining feature of the entire army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 16:39:25
Are you looking to discuss or just dictate to us how the AM design must be according to you? You're ordering me to go read some lore? Thanks. I've been playing Cadians since 1996, and yes I know that Cadia Stands. Doesn't make them the next box set (although I'd be happy to get new Cadians! or Catachans).
Then you should also know that even if Cadians are squatted--that has not ever stopped them from being the template that we could see. There were whole frigging systems related to producing material for Cadia. That stuff has to go somewhere, even if every Cadian in the galaxy gets pulled out of existence overnight.
The Tempestus Scions only exist as a force in 8th Ed as part of the Astra Militarum, taking the place of the old Stormtroopers etc in the range.
No. They take the place of the Stormtrooper Regiments. They do not take the place of Kasrkin, Volpone Bluebloods, or other Grenadier-typed units. Every single one of the things that I just listed were Regimental assets that were armed, equipped, and trained to function as part of the Regiment not zealots and hardliners thrown into suicide missions(which is what the Scions are, fyi).
They don't have their own section in the on-line store, although they do have their own Start Collecting Set. They offer a window into how the studio was thinking relatively recently, as opposed to the studio 25 years ago.
No, what offered a window into that thinking is the Tempestus Scions minidex that was available. It's why they had a Start Collecting set, as you could field an entire standalone army from that minidex. It wasn't a supplement unlike what some people implied.
You are clearly very passionate about your design and have put a lot of thought into it, but your rules I can certainly take a pass on. They can absolutely design new models or update existing ones without changing the fundamental rules/organization for the line. Of course, they have certainly changed "platoon/company" structures between editions. I've gamed/suffered through pretty much all of them! We'll see what the studio comes out with.
Yeah, well I'd take a pass on Guard being kept as they are. Nothing in my suggestions rules people out from using models they own, but rather actually starts Guard working the way they're supposed to.
Kanluwen wrote: There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'.
Uhm... I suppose you are aware that this 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns' is the entire stick of the Imperial Guard as far as their infantry goes, and one of the most defining feature of the entire army.
And I suppose you are aware that this "everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns" isn't actually something that needs to continually be copypasted from edition to edition? I mean, even just ignoring the clusterfeth that was Conscripts v Infantry Squads at the start of 8th(which should have been a huge shot across the bow to GW's designers that something needs to change)--there's notable shifts in the design space over the years that show you can still have similarly garbed or outfitted units without sacrificing the visual aesthetic of the force.
Look at the Tau for example. Pathfinders and Fire Warriors use the same basic structure, but the extra armor and the variation on weapons actually means something there. There is not, nor should there ever have been, an acceptable reason as to why Catachans and Cadians have the same armor saves as each other.
And for all the grousing people do about the Regimental Traits "not letting them play the way they should be!", one would think that there should be actual excitement over units that have a notable variation between each other rather than "My Catachans are all Conscripts this week, because the metashifted again!".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 17:06:46
Kanluwen wrote: We cannot look at changing the models without changing the rules. End. of. Story. There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'. That's why we had such issues with Conscripts early on for 8th. It's why Veterans are such trash compared to standard infantry squads. There needs to be variation, and that variation can drive a rules shift that actually starts putting Guard into a design space that moves them from 'Skitarii/Tau but worse'.
Additionally, read some lore. Cadians were everywhere. Not all of them were on Cadia when it "blew up"(which in and of itself is incorrect--they even make mention of this with regards to Bile as he's using the "ruins of Cadia" for his nonsense), and it was a known factor for several editions now that Cadian 'pattern' gear was produced on so many various worlds that were devoted strictly to outfitting Cadia that with Cadia gone? That equipment has to go somewhere. And that's not even getting into the whole idea of settlements(Brimlock Dragoons, for example, were known to be first-generation Cadians who had settled a world they conquered) where the Cadian martial traditions existed.
Scions aren't Astra Militarum infantry. They're Militarum Tempestus, which is in and of itself part of a whooooooole other thing. They're not meant to be anything other than a continuation of an aesthetic we saw introduced with the Vostroyans(that of the pseudo-John Blanche vibes).
Additionally, there's two Catachan figures. We saw Sergeant 'Ripper' and now this unnamed Colonel figure. But they're the first time we've actually had something close to the artwork they've been putting out for Catachans since the Robin Cruddace-era book or Kopinski's stuff when they dropped the Heavy Weapons Teams that had art rather than models:
Spoiler:
And then of course there's the actual color plates in the Codex now for Catachans, which are nothing like the current models but clearly were the basis for what the two special edition models are.
Imo, given their popularity, plastic multipart DKoK kits are way overdue.
Yeah, no. I'd never do DKoK in plastic at this point--the look(greatcoat+gas mask) is too saturated into pop culture right now. It's generic SyFy Channel Bad Guy at this point. It also steps too much onto the toes of the Scions at this point.
Looks as if Catachans may be on the long term horizon given some of the tester models of late...Marbo and the revealed Captain (or whatever he is)
It's a Colonel. It said so on the box and the Community article.
Marbo also wasn't "of late". He came out in 2017.
There is also the store opening model, which is actually a named one(Sergeant 'Ripper'--female model with a Boltgun).
Well I’m sorry, but rules were not the point of this thread. Hence the explicit statement that the focus was on models.
Second, calm down. I know the bloody lore, I at no point suggested getting rid of Cadians. I specifically talked about them. I’m talking about expanding and revamping the line, not completely rebooting it.
I’m not sure that WWI aesthetics are too deep into pop-culture atm. Also the Kriegers look nothing like the Scions at all.
And again, calm down.
See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason.
Kanluwen wrote: PDF are a different beast entirely and never, ever, ever should be showcased in Astra Militarum--except as Regimental Advisors.
I disagree.
They’re the first line of defence. Theoretically enough to put off opportunistic raiders of any stripe. And if not, enough to hold strategic locations until the AM proper can get to the Warzone and take control.
Rules need to reflect that. Or at the very, very least, have PDF/Conscripts not benefit from Orders.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Kanluwen wrote: There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'.
Uhm... I suppose you are aware that this 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns' is the entire stick of the Imperial Guard as far as their infantry goes, and one of the most defining feature of the entire army.
And I suppose you are aware that this "everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns" isn't actually something that needs to continually be copypasted from edition to edition?
You can give it up, of course, but then the army stops being Imperial Guard and becomes... something else. It would be like this Primaris debacle, or something even worse, because you are not adding a New Holy Cow for fans to lust over but slay the existing one with no definitive replacement. Heck, not even Primaris is ditching the Space Marine 'everyone is a 3+ save and has boltguns because the army profile says so' thing even if it would be expected.
PenitentJake wrote: Well, I'll give the response everyone on Dakka will hate.
IG dex + supplements for each regiment.
One unique vehicle variant for each regiment. One box for each regiment that builds, Troops, Vets, Heavies or Specials, but ALL very distinctly regimental.
Rough riders return- given that AM is getting cavalry, I think this is guaranteed to happen. Those things are going to sell like N-95's.
More guard fliers. Might only need one, but since I like lots, lets go for two- one would be a bomber and one would be a fighter since we've already got a Transport.
All three flyers sold as an Airwing box set with a plastic master of the fleet. While we're at it, plastic up the other advisors too.
New Wyrdvanes and a new Primaris, though keep the old primaris in circulation too because he rules.
Oh yeah, here's the best part; regiment boxes are also available as kill teams with each box containing a unique sculpt for a leader- Platoon commander level, because that's the other thing you have to bring back. Having only company level HQ makes it hard to play guard in properly scaled escalation campaigns.
The kill teams would be released first; their models would be monopose. 2-3 months after release, the multipart regiment boxes drop with the dex. The unique new kits with each regiment drop with that regiment's supplement.
The way forward is more. Not less.
Space Marines don't overtax the supply chain by having four different base Codexes because all four of them have 90%+ identical models, and the basic core models for all of them are identical. Trying to do sub-faction Codexes with different infantry ranges would be hilariously impractical.
That's a fair point. I think it could be mitigated by designing each infantry box so that it builds all the troops you need.
Right now you've got three boxes of Cadians (Command Squad, Heavy Weapons, Troops). and ditto for Cadians. Additionally, there are packs with snipers, packs with specials... You're looking at six boxes and four clam packs. What I'm talking about is having one box for each regiment. Whether you use the box to build two small MSU's (Command + Vet or Special) or one 10 man Troops is your call. Kinda like the sisters box works. It actually leads to fewer skus, and it could even lead to efficiency in mold making with a bit of effective sprue planning.
Keep in mind that my proposed release schedule gives you monopose preview models for a limited time, which provide some variety from just having a single box, and it allows GW to drop the dex without having all of the regiment boxes done for release; models would exist (as kill teams) for however many regiments you decide to include in the reboot- they'd just be monopose- they'd be very cinematic and high quality, so they could stand out as collectibles, but they'd have fewer options than a regiment box.
Most people who play guard play them for the vehicles, not the troops. The vehicles are the common core between the armies; most would appear in the dex, along with things like Imperial Advisors, Astra Telepathica Models, Rattlings and Ogryns. The troops, all their deidcated rules and strats and relics and warlord traits, plus maybe one character, one vehicle and one flavor unit- usually a character, would make up the content for the supplements.
I'm not saying for sure it WOULD work. But it certainly could.
Oh, and on another note, yeah, sorry about your luck dude, flak armor and lasguns are here to stay. Always have been, always will be. From a fluff perspective, as well as a loyalty to the customer base, they are the only options that make sense for guard troops. Vets and command squads and special weapons can shake up your weapons profile if you don't like lasguns. I wouldn't object to one or two of the regiment boxes being carapace armoured I guess- there's precedent for all of this stuff.
Maybe four regiments? I really think it's doable. The options in that sisters box are crazy.
Kanluwen wrote: PDF are a different beast entirely and never, ever, ever should be showcased in Astra Militarum--except as Regimental Advisors.
I disagree.
They’re the first line of defence. Theoretically enough to put off opportunistic raiders of any stripe. And if not, enough to hold strategic locations until the AM proper can get to the Warzone and take control.
They're also not Astra Militarum. The Regimental Advisor bit is actually a way to bring the concept of PDFs in and bring in a weird yet useful bit with regards to 'local terrain'.
Rules need to reflect that. Or at the very, very least, have PDF/Conscripts not benefit from Orders.
Then what's the point of throwing another subfaction into the book? We have: -Aeronautica Imperialis(Valkyries and Officer of the Fleet) -Astra Telepathica+Scholastica Psykana(Wyrdvane Psykers, Astropaths, Primaris Psykers) -Officio Prefectus(Commissars) -Militarum Tempestus(Remember that these require a Tempestus Prime to receive Orders) -Adeptus Ministorum(Crusaders and Priests) -Adeptus Mechanicus(Techpriest Enginseer and Servitors) -Militarum Auxilla(Ogryns and Ratlings) -<Regiment> units Just think about that for a moment. We have seven subfactions within the Guard codex. And you want to throw Planetary Defense Forces(which aren't part of the Guard, again, for emphasis) in to bring it up to 8?
If you want 'em as a dedicated subfaction? They belong in Auxilla. If they're in Auxilla, they get no Orders. Conscripts should have been under Auxilla to start with and then we never would have had the stupidity that was the start of 8th.
DalekCheese wrote:It makes perfect sense in many situations for the PDF- or at least it’s remnants- to be fighting alongside the Guard.
Of course it does. But that doesn't change that they're: A) Not part of the Guard B) A thing that should be more narrative scenario driven than a unit(or units) shoved into an already bloated book with subfactions.
The idea of bringing them in as a part of the 'Regimental Advisor' selection(Astropath, Master of Ordnance, Fleet Liasion) is to bring in a one-off that doesn't become a sidegrade or yet another subfaction. It becomes a single character that does something for the way the army functions whether it be allowing for deploying things from reserves, fire support from off-board lightweight weaponry, mitigating enemy reserves, etc.
AtoMaki wrote:You can give it up, of course, but then the army stops being Imperial Guard and becomes... something else. It would be like this Primaris debacle, or something even worse, because you are not adding a New Holy Cow for fans to lust over but slay the existing one with no definitive replacement. Heck, not even Primaris is ditching the Space Marine 'everyone is a 3+ save and has boltguns because the army profile says so' thing even if it would be expected.
First up, you really should actually read posts. None of what I posted "slays the existing one with no definitive replacement". I have models that are almost as old as I am that would fit into any of the categories I listed. The only thing it "slays" is the nonsense that is the current spam of cheap troops and cheap weapons. Imperial Guard, as an army, are useless existing in the space they are now. Genestealer Cult does the same thing--but better. Tau does the same thing--but better(much better thanks to Drones) Adeptus Mechanicus does the same thing--but better.
The only real space that Guard have been occupying has been "cheap command point generators" and with Marines getting changed to no longer benefit from it(which definitely seems to be the shape of things to come)? They need to have an actual place to flourish. Their troops aren't flexible, they don't have gimmicks outside of a few token stratagems, and their gameplay style currently is one of the most reviled with "bUt ThEy JuSt SiT aNd ShOoT mE!!1!!".
Additionally, the army doesn't "stop being Imperial Guard". It hasn't been Imperial Guard since Cruddace wrote the post-Doctrines book. It's been a Marine player's vision of Guard. Scions were the only genuinely new thing that we saw added to the lore and organizational setup for the Guard--and they were a huge step forward from the nonsense that was "The Stormtrooper Regiment".
In conclusion: Make Guardsmen matter. They're not just speed bumps for the tanks. They're the main element of the fighting force that is the Imperial Guard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 18:08:02
14000 points 
