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Made in ca
Happy Imperial Citizen





Greetings all,

I have been wracking my brain to try and figure out how to make CSM work as a mainline troops choice. I understand cultists are incredible and they are the go to choice for troops, but I love CSM and want them to be the main part of my force. I am debating between making a Word Bearers or Brazen Beasts army, and want as little to no cultists in my army. I am not a competitive player from a gaming standpoint, so I was hoping for some feedback on how to make CSM work in either a Word Bearers or Brazen Beasts army. Any feedback would be appreciated, and I apologize if this has been discussed to death already.

Thanks!
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Happy for people to shout me down - but I'm not sure cultists are incredible these days. The balance between them and CSM is arguably quite reasonable - its just that both are on the "meh" scale of competitive. If pushed to spend the least amount of points possible, 40 is smaller than 55.

Really it comes down to what you mean by "work".

A 5 man squad that can sit on objectives in your deployment zone and plink reasonably deep into the mid-table with bolter discipline - preferably while staying in cover - is fine. I think its hard to argue 11 point marines are massively over-costed - its just that they don't really do anything more and so the more points you put into them, the more "meh" it gets.

It doesn't come in the kit, so question marks about it being eventually eliminated - but a combi-bolter on the Champion is a reasonable couple of points. It might be worth throwing in plasma because its nice to have. But I don't think its going to really change things.

You could run a big buffed up blob but there isn't really any upside to doing so (because you could buff up something better than basic CSM) and a reasonable number of downsides (morale starts to matter, you don't get any internal buff for a big squad).

But then it depends on how competitive you want to be. As Brazen Beasts you could take a couple of 20 strong CSM squads with chainswords. Run them up with a chaos lord and an exalted champion and see what happens. In a more casual setting they should get there in some games and do quite a bit of damage. Competitively though they are likely to get gunned down, hit a screen, and then get gunned down some more.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
Greetings all,

I have been wracking my brain to try and figure out how to make CSM work as a mainline troops choice. I understand cultists are incredible and they are the go to choice for troops, but I love CSM and want them to be the main part of my force. I am debating between making a Word Bearers or Brazen Beasts army, and want as little to no cultists in my army. I am not a competitive player from a gaming standpoint, so I was hoping for some feedback on how to make CSM work in either a Word Bearers or Brazen Beasts army. Any feedback would be appreciated, and I apologize if this has been discussed to death already.

Thanks!




play RC, play 10 man squads.
Don't leave house with less then 6 of these squads.
Start soviet propaganda piece or Red september and start human wave asssault the enemy.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Why 10-man? Wouldn't a couple of 5-man and one or two 20-strong be better?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




My experience with CSM troop choices in 8th is the same as in previous editions: if you want units for objective holding and filling slots you take Cultists. If you want a unit that actually contributes something to the game and doesn't immediately fall over when being looked at, you take CSM. Take 5 with two Plasma if they're supposed to do something. Or 5 with an Autocannon. They're annoying but there'll be far more important targets for your opponent so they'll sit back and fire from long range and do a wound here and there. Chaincannons are a bit expensive for a small unit like that but with enough other targets - why not. If you get 1St turn it'll do its work.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 JNAProductions wrote:
Why 10-man? Wouldn't a couple of 5-man and one or two 20-strong be better?


Personal experience no.
For one you really want your csm to do things and for that you need saturation of special / heavy weapons which the 10 man squad achieves perfectly.
For two, the 20 man squad has a huge sign that states wipe me out or else, and you can't recycle a fully wiped squad not to mention that 20 man have a bigger footprint.

For three 5 man squads are for when you field csm over cultists or squeze another Battalion in or Run the other csm list which is either AL, scourged or BL with 1 lascannon/ autocannon per squad which total at probably 15 csm.


Mind you point 1 and 2 are for when you really want to be durable/ skewy.
For all non rc list focusing on csm point 3 really applies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/18 21:49:43


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in ca
Happy Imperial Citizen





This is all useful information, I appreciate it. Is there any merit to running melee oriented marines? I understand that with bolter discipline, it's hard to pass up bolters, but if you were to run combat oriented marines, how would you do it?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sgt. Cortez wrote:
My experience with CSM troop choices in 8th is the same as in previous editions: if you want units for objective holding and filling slots you take Cultists. If you want a unit that actually contributes something to the game and doesn't immediately fall over when being looked at, you take CSM. Take 5 with two Plasma if they're supposed to do something. Or 5 with an Autocannon. They're annoying but there'll be far more important targets for your opponent so they'll sit back and fire from long range and do a wound here and there. Chaincannons are a bit expensive for a small unit like that but with enough other targets - why not. If you get 1St turn it'll do its work.

This is really incorrect. There's nothing "annoying" about CSM, period. If my opponent brings them I'm sure to have an even easier time. You're likely going to get more mileage out of Cultists due to larger footprint, the same amount of shots for a lower price (boohoo S3 < S4, not for the price! Also in order to get more shots with your CSM you have to stand still, for a more expensive price...), and ultimately not needing gimmicks to try and make them work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
This is all useful information, I appreciate it. Is there any merit to running melee oriented marines? I understand that with bolter discipline, it's hard to pass up bolters, but if you were to run combat oriented marines, how would you do it?

You don't. Your Elite slot has more to offer for melee options or you could instead go World Eaters for Berserker Marines as troops. If you ever seen the Ultramarine movie *shudders* expect your melee Chaos Marines to plop on the ground that quickly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/18 21:34:31


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Yeah, "point three" is what I generally do. Csm are for holding objectives, screening, and shooting anything within range in a Night Lords army right now (I don't like that, btw). If I have the points I'll give them some auto cannons, chain cannons, or plasma depending on my inclination. Fast attack, elites, and heavy support are there for the heavy lifting.
   
Made in ca
Happy Imperial Citizen





Thank you all for your feedback, I appreciate it. Will be very useful in creating my army, now to just decide on subfaction!
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
Thank you all for your feedback, I appreciate it. Will be very useful in creating my army, now to just decide on subfaction!
For competitive, Alpha Legion.

If you're not worried about being the best gamer, then you have considerably more options.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




I bought PA Faith and Fury as an EPUB; tried to read it again today, because of the 5 e books I bought, it was the one I remember as being MOSTLY okay to read on a computer.

However, something has happened between now and then that made the file illegible. I updated my reader software- no good. I'm trying to convert the Epub to PDF, but not sure that's going to work either.

I do remember Word Bearers not being terribly impressed with their new shiny,

I'm not sold on MSU as a concept, but in order to go above MSU, you need morale protection. I was really looking forwar to seeing what I could dig up for you.

I guess the moral of the story is don't buy Epubs if you want to read them on a computer. I can't testify about how well they work on dedicated ebook machines.

I don't want another machine just to read these five books. I never would have bought them if I had known that they don't work on computers.

If the PDF conversion works, I'll come back later.

   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
This is all useful information, I appreciate it. Is there any merit to running melee oriented marines? I understand that with bolter discipline, it's hard to pass up bolters, but if you were to run combat oriented marines, how would you do it?


No unless you really want to tie something down and want to Make it happen with infantry.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in ca
Happy Imperial Citizen





PenitentJake wrote:
I bought PA Faith and Fury as an EPUB; tried to read it again today, because of the 5 e books I bought, it was the one I remember as being MOSTLY okay to read on a computer.

However, something has happened between now and then that made the file illegible. I updated my reader software- no good. I'm trying to convert the Epub to PDF, but not sure that's going to work either.

I do remember Word Bearers not being terribly impressed with their new shiny,

I'm not sold on MSU as a concept, but in order to go above MSU, you need morale protection. I was really looking forwar to seeing what I could dig up for you.

I guess the moral of the story is don't buy Epubs if you want to read them on a computer. I can't testify about how well they work on dedicated ebook machines.

I don't want another machine just to read these five books. I never would have bought them if I had known that they don't work on computers.

If the PDF conversion works, I'll come back later.



Wow, thank you so much, any information you may be able to dig up would be super appreciated. I am not very worried about being a competitive gamer, I love the fluff foremost, so it's between Word Bearers and Brazen Beasts
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





Chaos has a few trick ponies. Posessed stacked with buffs, and double shooting Slaanesh units.

Then Lord Discos for Engine lists.

I play mostly Death Guard so can't really comment further on what works for them atm.

Oblits with a Nurgle Tree, and deepstriking Slaanesh Oblits were my go to for a while. Havent played it with Faith and Fury, but I've always liked Iron Warriors and Night Lords.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/18 23:29:20


 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





4th Obelisk On The Right

Whatever you do, do not buy 20 CSM and arm them for close combat. It is absolutely garbage. I made the mistake and in every single game I ran them they were very bad huge wastes of points.

In one game running 20 red corsair marines the squad got decimated by primaris turn 1 to a few guys. So I spent CPs to bring back a full squad, deployed them in my opponents back line. Charged a squad of 5 primaris and killed nothing, lost a few, failed morale and by my 3rd turn they were all gone. 40 CSM couldn't even achieve killing 5 primaris.

Take them because you think they look cool. Expect them to never contribute.

No idea how to fix them. The game ground up probably would have to change to make them worth while again.

 
   
Made in de
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




Overall, if you want to run CC oriented CSM because you like the look and feel of it - do it. Many advices on dakka are very focused on the tournament aspect of the game - which is a very narrow view. If CC CSM aren't the "best" option right now, they might be in half a year. Or they'll still do okay in the typical meta with your friends. Drive them up in a rhino, put a lord and an exalted champion or an apostle with them (very fluffy if you want to do word bearers) and have fun. Don't expect them to do wonders, but they're just line troopers so they don't have to. If you want better CC CSM using the same models play them as Chosen to get one more attack.
Slayer Fan will probably tell you this is all incorrect again, but his grasp on the game is pretty much limited on tournament meta and nothing else.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 BrotherGecko wrote:
Whatever you do, do not buy 20 CSM and arm them for close combat. It is absolutely garbage. I made the mistake and in every single game I ran them they were very bad huge wastes of points.

In one game running 20 red corsair marines the squad got decimated by primaris turn 1 to a few guys. So I spent CPs to bring back a full squad, deployed them in my opponents back line. Charged a squad of 5 primaris and killed nothing, lost a few, failed morale and by my 3rd turn they were all gone. 40 CSM couldn't even achieve killing 5 primaris.

Take them because you think they look cool. Expect them to never contribute.

No idea how to fix them. The game ground up probably would have to change to make them worth while again.



oh Boi that is some serious lack of luck, then again statistically they should've lost atleast 1.5 primaris against a 10 man squad charge.

Also, like i said the 20 man squads are a gimmick / leftover from the past that doesn't work.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/19 08:17:08


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 BrotherGecko wrote:
Whatever you do, do not buy 20 CSM and arm them for close combat. It is absolutely garbage. I made the mistake and in every single game I ran them they were very bad huge wastes of points...


Or if you did buy 20 CSM and arm them for melee play 30k with them, they can work there.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





4th Obelisk On The Right

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Overall, if you want to run CC oriented CSM because you like the look and feel of it - do it. Many advices on dakka are very focused on the tournament aspect of the game - which is a very narrow view. If CC CSM aren't the "best" option right now, they might be in half a year. Or they'll still do okay in the typical meta with your friends. Drive them up in a rhino, put a lord and an exalted champion or an apostle with them (very fluffy if you want to do word bearers) and have fun. Don't expect them to do wonders, but they're just line troopers so they don't have to. If you want better CC CSM using the same models play them as Chosen to get one more attack.
Slayer Fan will probably tell you this is all incorrect again, but his grasp on the game is pretty much limited on tournament meta and nothing else.


I play strictly casual and my typical opponent plays nothing but primaris that come in the starter sets and the difference between his primaris and my chaos marines is staggering.

So I'd argue that in playing casual the problem with chaos marines becomes even more stark because casual assumes a rough equal footing that just is not there.

So as a casual player I'd say run chaos marines only if you want to and expect in an average casual game your opponent will sweep them off the table without much effort. And when they don't, expect them to contribute nothing to your turn.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Overall, if you want to run CC oriented CSM because you like the look and feel of it - do it. Many advices on dakka are very focused on the tournament aspect of the game - which is a very narrow view. If CC CSM aren't the "best" option right now, they might be in half a year. Or they'll still do okay in the typical meta with your friends. Drive them up in a rhino, put a lord and an exalted champion or an apostle with them (very fluffy if you want to do word bearers) and have fun. Don't expect them to do wonders, but they're just line troopers so they don't have to. If you want better CC CSM using the same models play them as Chosen to get one more attack.
Slayer Fan will probably tell you this is all incorrect again, but his grasp on the game is pretty much limited on tournament meta and nothing else.

They aren't even good casually LOL

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Bane Thrall




The deck of the Widower

I had good results with CSM units last weekend. I played an Alpha Legion list with 6 units, 4 5 man squads with 1 lascannon and 2 6 man squads with 1 meltagun & 1 combi-melta each. They were able to use terrain and their legion tactic to avoid return fire and did good work holding objectives and shooting hard targets with their lascannons. That is for Alpha Legion though, I am not sure about how good they are for Word Bearers or the other warband you mentioned as the playstyles are different. I personally feel that having cultists in my list would have been worse for me in that particular game. As with most troop units, I recommend staying as cheap as possible and themed to the role you chose for them. Focus their gear for the role, don't add extra things and they will not make you regret spending the points on them.

I have a bunch of armies, who knows the points these days? 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




sorry wrong thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/19 16:17:49


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The only two ways I find basic CSM more usefull than cultists is both for that detachment that gives you extra CP and for alpha legion.

5 alpha legion csm in cover on an objetive are much better than 10 cultists doing the same.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Happy Imperial Citizen





Thank you everyone for your feedback and suggestions, I really appreciate it. This gives me a lot to think about, hopefully I can make these guys work in a potential list.
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




I primarily play Word Bearers and in my opinion there is no reason what so ever to run CSM over cultist. Word Bearers legion trait is beyond worthless and often detrimental more than helpful, so losing that doesn't hurt cultist at all. If you are looking for a resilient objective holder you can take Plague Marines, if you want bodies cultist are better, if you want some firepower then why on earth are you even looking at CSM? If you want a melee unit you should just pay for some Berserkers or more on theme for Word Bearers, Possessed.

CSM have some wiggle space in some Chaos armies but as a Word Bearer army bringing CSM is just wasted points. If you are dead set on running some CSM just run them bare bones 5 man squads to sit on objectives and plink away with some S4 fire power. I wouldn't put a special weapon or heavy weapon on them because a T4 3+ save is just not very resilient and if you are running them as a 5 man squad they are extremely easy to take off the board while they contribute very little.
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





4th Obelisk On The Right

 Dorns_Arrow96 wrote:
Thank you everyone for your feedback and suggestions, I really appreciate it. This gives me a lot to think about, hopefully I can make these guys work in a potential list.


I wouldn't do either brazen beasts or word bearers for running chaos marines. Losing veterans of the long war when using brazen beasts sets you back farther than you might realize. And as previously mentions word bearers are better off using cultists.

You could do 3 squads of 5 guys with bolt pistols and chainswords, a exalted champ and a dark apostle in a red corsairs battalion to give yourself some CP. Then if you can get them to survive 1 turn they can move+advance and hopefully assault some gun line unit and tie them up for a little while. That wouldn't be the worst thing with chaos marines.

Black legion is alright as you can at least advance and shoot bolters. And they have some decent strats.

Iron warriors are alright for camping and plinking.


I run chaos marines purely as a vanity project. I arm them with crap that is never going to be worth it but looks cool and just hope the rest of my list is threatening enough that my opponent doesn't have time to delete my marines.

 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Cultists serve as a cheap screen with their large footprint, csm for holding back/midfield objectives, and both are reasonable at their jobs for their points. Csm are a lot harder to move off of objectives than cultists, especially in cover which helps in holding objectives- especially against light infantry with bolter drill and the assault buff.

Marines are not good screening units as they'be too small a model count/footprint to block effectively for their price. SM Scouts only get away with it because of their deployment rules allowing them to more aggressively block movement in a way csm are not meant for.

You can sprinkle some heavy weapons in for saturation, but their troops. At most you'll get some okay support fire, your actual punch is in your elites so those points are better spent there.

Ideally, you should take a mix of both as they fill different functions as troops. If you want generally more killy troops, add in some daemons

Though csm troops might have some extra value in alpha legion lists or red corsairs for the cp.
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





 BrotherGecko wrote:
Whatever you do, do not buy 20 CSM and arm them for close combat. It is absolutely garbage. I made the mistake and in every single game I ran them they were very bad huge wastes of points.

In one game running 20 red corsair marines the squad got decimated by primaris turn 1 to a few guys. So I spent CPs to bring back a full squad, deployed them in my opponents back line. Charged a squad of 5 primaris and killed nothing, lost a few, failed morale and by my 3rd turn they were all gone. 40 CSM couldn't even achieve killing 5 primaris.

Take them because you think they look cool. Expect them to never contribute.

No idea how to fix them. The game ground up probably would have to change to make them worth while again.


Were these just regular melee CSM or berzerkers?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Whatever you do, do not buy 20 CSM and arm them for close combat. It is absolutely garbage. I made the mistake and in every single game I ran them they were very bad huge wastes of points.

In one game running 20 red corsair marines the squad got decimated by primaris turn 1 to a few guys. So I spent CPs to bring back a full squad, deployed them in my opponents back line. Charged a squad of 5 primaris and killed nothing, lost a few, failed morale and by my 3rd turn they were all gone. 40 CSM couldn't even achieve killing 5 primaris.

Take them because you think they look cool. Expect them to never contribute.

No idea how to fix them. The game ground up probably would have to change to make them worth while again.


Were these just regular melee CSM or berzerkers?

He was using Red Corsairs, so Chaos Marines is implied. GW tried to incentivize them with a dumb CP bonus purely under Red Corsairs, only to fail to realize that you only get a couple less without them. Their rules just give a bonus in the first place after all.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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