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Made in us
Raging Ravener




Just putting it out there.
When you meet another Tyranid faction it just says there are two hive minds.
When you destroy the other Tyranid faction it says this was just a resolution of difference of opinion. The weaker, grosser hive mind lost out and now all the information, genetic data, and biomass it gathered is added to the stronger hive mind.

So there are multiple hive minds and inter tyranid conflict.
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

Other sources of fluff say there is a single hive mind. For instance the recent Devastation of Baal or Wraithflight novels.
That interpretation says that the source of tyranid vs tyranid conflict is the hive mind performing weapons testing. Throwing different strains of its forces against each other to see which is stronger.

Which to believe, depends on what author you prefer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My personal favourite take on the hive mind is that of the 'psychic area network' or 'tyranid internet'.
There was a great post about this on /r/40kLore a month or two back: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/fpczv6/the_hive_mind_isnt_an_entity_its_a_psychic_area/

This interpretation would mean that each fleet has its own hive mind, only so long as its long range communications are cut off from the other hive fleets. As soon as it reestablishes communication, it merges back into a single hive mind.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/22 03:54:38


 
   
Made in za
Regular Dakkanaut



South Africa

Headcannon but given the distance lf inter-galaxy travel the
chances of their being 2 hive minds in such close proximity to the Galaxy are miniscule. Even given the time between Behemoth and Leviathan / Kraken it seems unlikely that there are multiple unique instances of Tyranids.

I do wonder at the level of autonomy the hives have though. I'm of the opinion that the Hive Mind has adjusted tactics but that it's pretty much "told" the hive go get that galaxy and the sub commanders are doing it as they see fit, the antaganism simply being a version of Not Invented Here as opposed to actual intercine fighting.

KBK 
   
Made in gb
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Norn Iron

Gladius


Who?

Arson Fire wrote:
This interpretation would mean that each fleet has its own hive mind, only so long as its long range communications are cut off from the other hive fleets. As soon as it reestablishes communication, it merges back into a single hive mind.


I'd mostly go with Kayback in that the three big invasions - Kraken, Behemoth and Leviathan - are all the same hive mind, taking time to probe the galaxy at different points. But splinter fleets, especially with all the fracturing going on post-Leviathan and the Great Rift, I'd say are more like Arson Fire's quote here. In my headcanon the hive mind casts a big shadow in the warp but doesn't cast it very far, comparatively speaking. A hive mind can maybe detect far-off psychic signals (GSCs and sitch) but is there anything about them shooting off instructions and orders like astropaths?

Why they would fight rather than merge smoothly? Maybe there's no merging smoothly, if two splinters have been going off on their individual guided-hyper-evolution shtick for a while. Speciation, competition, fitness, red in tooth and claw.

   
Made in us
Raging Ravener




Arson Fire wrote:
Other sources of fluff say there is a single hive mind. For instance the recent Devastation of Baal or Wraithflight novels.
That interpretation says that the source of tyranid vs tyranid conflict is the hive mind performing weapons testing. Throwing different strains of its forces against each other to see which is stronger.

Which to believe, depends on what author you prefer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My personal favourite take on the hive mind is that of the 'psychic area network' or 'tyranid internet'.
There was a great post about this on /r/40kLore a month or two back: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/fpczv6/the_hive_mind_isnt_an_entity_its_a_psychic_area/

This interpretation would mean that each fleet has its own hive mind, only so long as its long range communications are cut off from the other hive fleets. As soon as it reestablishes communication, it merges back into a single hive mind.


Gladius also says Hive Minds are solitary. When you encounter Orks it says "To battle something so similar must be a strange feeling for the solitary mind"

So from Gladius we can know that the Hive Mind is a solitary pure warp entity that controls Tyranids like puppets. Further supported by the fact that the Hive Mind gives each individual Tyranid its attention, and great attention during the creation process of Synapse Tyranids, and stuff like this:
"birthing canals are something like biological production lines, enabling many creatures to be produced in parallel without direct oversight f the hive mind."
Without direct oversight. So it's a solitary mind giving attention and directly overseeing some tyranid production and not overseeing other tyranid production.



The best officially licensed WH40K video game in existence.
   
Made in us
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Think of it like the metaphorical angel-self over one shoulder and demon-self over the other, arguing why their perspective is right. Only they are actual hive fleets and you can have them fight to the death to determine which choice is better.

I can certainly see the appeal of making decisions that way.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

roboemperor wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
Other sources of fluff say there is a single hive mind. For instance the recent Devastation of Baal or Wraithflight novels.
That interpretation says that the source of tyranid vs tyranid conflict is the hive mind performing weapons testing. Throwing different strains of its forces against each other to see which is stronger.

Which to believe, depends on what author you prefer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My personal favourite take on the hive mind is that of the 'psychic area network' or 'tyranid internet'.
There was a great post about this on /r/40kLore a month or two back: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/fpczv6/the_hive_mind_isnt_an_entity_its_a_psychic_area/

This interpretation would mean that each fleet has its own hive mind, only so long as its long range communications are cut off from the other hive fleets. As soon as it reestablishes communication, it merges back into a single hive mind.


Gladius also says Hive Minds are solitary. When you encounter Orks it says "To battle something so similar must be a strange feeling for the solitary mind"

So from Gladius we can know that the Hive Mind is a solitary pure warp entity that controls Tyranids like puppets. Further supported by the fact that the Hive Mind gives each individual Tyranid its attention, and great attention during the creation process of Synapse Tyranids, and stuff like this:
"birthing canals are something like biological production lines, enabling many creatures to be produced in parallel without direct oversight f the hive mind."
Without direct oversight. So it's a solitary mind giving attention and directly overseeing some tyranid production and not overseeing other tyranid production.



The best officially licensed WH40K video game in existence.


Out of curiosity, what do you make of the fluff in the tyranid codex where hive fleet Leviathan is leaving pre-digested worlds behind for hive fleet Kronos to consume?
Kronos is getting insufficient biomass due to constantly fighting against chaos daemons, so Leviathan appears to be helping it. That seems to run contrary to the fluff in the Gladius game. As it suggests that either there is a single hive mind controlling both fleets, or that their individual hive minds are not so solitary, and are capable of working together at a strategic level.
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener




Arson Fire wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do you make of the fluff in the tyranid codex where hive fleet Leviathan is leaving pre-digested worlds behind for hive fleet Kronos to consume?
Kronos is getting insufficient biomass due to constantly fighting against chaos daemons, so Leviathan appears to be helping it. That seems to run contrary to the fluff in the Gladius game. As it suggests that either there is a single hive mind controlling both fleets, or that their individual hive minds are not so solitary, and are capable of working together at a strategic level.


Neither scenario is inconsistent with Gladius.

Solitary means the hive mind is like a god instead of cloud computing. If you look at ants and cloud computing, everything runs on consensus of the masses. If enough ants make the same decision, or if enough computers in the cloud make the same decision, everything else follows. This is a non-solitary mind. A solitary mind is like a dictator where he gets to do whatever the **** he wants and there's nothing that can stop him.

So this means like you said, Leviathan and Kronos is controlled by a single hive mind, or they're controlled by separate hive minds working together. What it's not is a bunch of norn queens acting like cloud computers deciding to behave the way leviathan and kronos is doing. Hive Mind controls the norn queens. No consensus decision making thingy.
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






Little from column A, little from column B.

First, we need to understand that the Hive Mind is vast, and utterly alien in nature. There’s room for dispute as to despite its clear awareness, how far that goes. Is it truly sapient, or just highly, highly instinctual?

Now, I’ll use my profession as an example. I deal in financial complaints as an independent arbitrator. It’s my job to weigh up the facts as they’re presented, and compare them to various laws and that.

Quite often, that does involve a wee conversation in my head as I challenge my own assumptions.

Just now I’ve been going over a case, and had one of those conversations as to whether or not I really needed some additional info. So I worked out the potential scenarios compared to the likely delay the request will cause. Decided that if this shows what I think it will, it’ll kill off one party’s arguments completely. So I sent the email.

When we see Hive Fleets going at it, it’s likely the same, just on a scale we can barely comprehend. It’s likely both are travelling along the same adaptation experiment, and the scrap is a litmus test to see how it’s going,

After all, when Nid battles Nids, is there really any actual loss of biomass involved?

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Little from column A, little from column B.

First, we need to understand that the Hive Mind is vast, and utterly alien in nature. There’s room for dispute as to despite its clear awareness, how far that goes. Is it truly sapient, or just highly, highly instinctual?

Now, I’ll use my profession as an example. I deal in financial complaints as an independent arbitrator. It’s my job to weigh up the facts as they’re presented, and compare them to various laws and that.

Quite often, that does involve a wee conversation in my head as I challenge my own assumptions.

Just now I’ve been going over a case, and had one of those conversations as to whether or not I really needed some additional info. So I worked out the potential scenarios compared to the likely delay the request will cause. Decided that if this shows what I think it will, it’ll kill off one party’s arguments completely. So I sent the email.

When we see Hive Fleets going at it, it’s likely the same, just on a scale we can barely comprehend. It’s likely both are travelling along the same adaptation experiment, and the scrap is a litmus test to see how it’s going,

After all, when Nid battles Nids, is there really any actual loss of biomass involved?


There are energy losses otherwise it would be a violation of thermodynamics. Taking a dead body and reprocessing it into a fresh Tyranid takes energy, which must come from somewhere. That somewhere might be solar energy via photosynthesizing Tyranid flora, or via the digestion of existing biomass whether that be dead Tyranid or some other non-Tyranid life caught in the crossfire.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 08:51:41


 
   
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Offset by the learning curve I’d argue.

Though I do prefer the concept of the Hive Mind being multiple entities united, rather than a single intelligence.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Offset by the learning curve I’d argue.

Though I do prefer the concept of the Hive Mind being multiple entities united, rather than a single intelligence.


My preference in order

1. Multiple Hive Minds. But the numbers are few and each hive mind controls ridiculous amounts of tyranids at once.
2. Norn Queen Cloud Computing.
3. Single Hive Mind controls all tyranids.
   
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Fixture of Dakka




UK

All our understanding of Tyranids is filtered through the fact that we very rarely get any actual lore written by Tyranids - its all other factions interpreting Tyranid actions. Even many things (like game) are interpretations of tyranids made into a form we understand as players.


As such there are huge areas we don't understand. For example we know that Hive Tyrants, Zoanthropes and such are highly intelligent creatures capable of operating well outside of the greater influence of the Swarm. We know that norn queens are even higher on the intelligence scale so, again, we can presume that they are also able to operate well outside of the hives core influence. Furthermore those creatures don't just operate themselves, they project the synapse connections to other Tyranids in their local area (varying on their signal power - ergo a queen can hit a bigger area than a tyrant etc...). How much individuality they have when operating alone and when operating within range of the bulk of the rest of the Hive Mind is totally unknown. Heck Norn Queens are only known of from a tiny fragment of records - the greater details we've no idea of.



We also know that "personalities" can exist within the swarm. The Swarmlord is such a creature/entity/mind within the Swarm. Both individual and unique and yet at the same time part of the united swarm. Again we've no real idea how much individuality and control it has over its own actions nor even the real concept of where self begins and unity ends in terms of the Tyranids. Ergo we might see what we think is individuality thoughts and unique approaches and even conflict within the tyranids united mind; yet it might simply be how the united mind deals with thinking. Ergo whilst its conflicted its not actually fighting itself.



We also know that genestealer cults can operate right outside of the will of the swarm. Infecting whole systems and even building small empires of their own if they can't call a swarm. Again we get that notion of the Swarm being able to operate in isolation from the greater whole; and yet when united again with the greater whole there is no "conflict". Even if one consumes/destroys/fights the other there doesn't seem to be the concept of civil war.




Tyranids also seem to resource bias for physical material (biomatter and minerals) which treating energy/thermal as essentially infinite. They don't appear to worry about the loss of raw energy when doing their weapons tests; instead they are far more concerned over raw materials. It's like a child playing with lego - it doesn't matter at the comparative tiny loss of energy in building, destroying and rebuilding - all that matters if you've got the most blocks to build with.

   
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Im shocked, shocked! that a mid-budget licensed third party video game takes some liberties with established lore.
   
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roboemperor wrote:




The best officially licensed WH40K video game in existence.

Yeah no. Meet Dawn of War and Space Marine
   
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Yazima wrote:
Yeah no. Meet Dawn of War and Space Marine


Never played space marine but dawn of war was terrible.

1. I tried moving my entire space marine army from one side of the map to the other. What happened? Half of each squad ended up getting split, they all got inter-congested along the path to the objective, and at the end all of units stand still. Because the units at the front want to go backwards to meet up with the rest of the squad but the way back is blocked by units trying to go forward so they all end up standing still doing nothing and it is impossible to untangle them. At this point I went pure vehicle solely because they only have 1 model per squad.
2. All the missions in Dark Crusade and Soulstorm are identical. You start here, 1-3 ais start there. The end.

I did manage to enjoy dark crusade by going chaos, rushing defiler, and having that rushed defiler solo the entire ai long enough for me to get more defilers out and just win with defilers and later Daemon Prince Eliphas. But that squad pathfinding congestion thing is unforgivable.

Dark Crusade dialogue was great. I watched youtube videos of everyone just talking solely because it was that great. Eliphas is awesome as hell.

But the game was severely unpolished, balance is completely broken especially dark crusade necrons and soulstorm air units, etc. etc. The game attempted to be a starcraft dupe and failed miserably.

----

DoWII was fun too but it was severely repetitive and no challenge. You just build units, suicide them to the enemy, and repeat repeat repeat. YOu cannot lose any mission because there is no real loss condition. No penalty for losing units. No penalty for taking a million years to complete the mission.
Last stand was fun while it lasted. But why only 2 maps? They could've made it so much more popular if they made a few more maps. I mean how hard is it to make a map that sends 20 waves of units and the players?

----

In any case DoW is nowhere near the level of Gladius.
DoW > Gladius at launch cause gladius at launch was boring.
Gladius > DoW now because Gladius is super polished now and amazing.
   
Made in fr
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France

Yazima wrote:
roboemperor wrote:




The best officially licensed WH40K video game in existence.

Yeah no. Meet Dawn of War and Space Marine


UNfortunatly I can't seem to find any more games of space marines, the srves have been abandonned a while ago...

I briefly considered getting gladius but then turned away, I wasn't confident in a 4X 40k videogame.

I personnaly love the idea that a single, gigantic entity would control all tyranids butI believe that in the current fluff's state, several interpretations of what the hive mind in pratice is are open. To me the better one would be that the hive mind is a sort of cloud, but that hives then have a somewhat autonomous counsciensness to lead them. The confrontations between different hives would hint that direction, wouldn't it?

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



South Africa

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
To me the better one would be that the hive mind is a sort of cloud, but that hives then have a somewhat autonomous counsciensness to lead them. The confrontations between different hives would hint that direction, wouldn't it?


The scary prospect for the Imperium and the Galaxy at large is the thought that there is a bigger over-mind behind the hive fleets. If Behemoth was a precursor to Leviathan/Kraken they could be the precursor to a bigger fleet coming up behind, like a river's tributaries but in reverse. For now the "feeler" fleets are acting autonomously but when the parent wakes up the squabbling children will be clipped around the ears and then the parent will step in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 13:25:49


KBK 
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener




 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I briefly considered getting gladius but then turned away, I wasn't confident in a 4X 40k videogame.


Despite being advertised as "4X" I wouldn't call it that.

This is what you do in game
1. build buildings
2. use those buildings to build units
3. keep repeating 1&2 until everyone is dead.

The game is 100% combat. And is super deep mechanically and soooo much customization. Which heroes to get out first, whether to go infantry focused, vehicle focused, monster focused, or all 3. I often just play an empty map for 80 turns to perfect my build order for that thing I'm trying to do. I call it turn based starcraft because calling it "4X" imo is not accurate.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




What perspective is the gladius thing from? Tyranids, mechanicus or what?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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roboemperor wrote:
Yazima wrote:
Yeah no. Meet Dawn of War and Space Marine


Never played space marine but dawn of war was terrible.


Naturally, having a wrong opinion is totally within your rights.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
roboemperor wrote:
Yazima wrote:
Yeah no. Meet Dawn of War and Space Marine


Never played space marine but dawn of war was terrible.


Naturally, having a wrong opinion is totally within your rights.

Take away their MetAl BawKseS!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



South Africa

Space Marine was pretty epic. Did a good job of balancing "realism" of the 40K fluff with gameplay. The ability to commandeer Guard heavy weapons was great.

I wanted to shoot the Inquisitor in the face the second I met him.

KBK 
   
Made in gb
Nimble Glade Rider





Kayback wrote:
Space Marine was pretty epic. Did a good job of balancing "realism" of the 40K fluff with gameplay. The ability to commandeer Guard heavy weapons was great.

I wanted to shoot the Inquisitor in the face the second I met him.

I think it was that Skrillex-looking hairstyle that did it for me. Dude deserved a thunderhammer to the face for sure.
It was a great game though, sadly let down by the multiplayer
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Sterling191 wrote:Im shocked, shocked! that a mid-budget licensed third party video game takes some liberties with established lore.


More likely when they asked GW "So what are Tyrainds" they got something along the lines of "hive mind controlled swarming monsters that attack with huge hive fleets. Tyranids of different hive fleets have different focus and colourations and sometimes fight against each other as weapon tests." Which gets interpreted as each hive fleet has its own hive mind even if they are all linked.
Which to be fair might actually happen - everything we know about tyranids is filtered through other races impressions. We don't have a perfect first hand break down of all the ins and outs of Tyranids. Furthermore the way they operate might defy our understanding, so we end up with translations into a way we understand which don't quite convey the full truth. Especially when you're trying to convey those concepts with a few words rather than paragraphs

roboemperor wrote:
 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I briefly considered getting gladius but then turned away, I wasn't confident in a 4X 40k videogame.


Despite being advertised as "4X" I wouldn't call it that.

This is what you do in game
1. build buildings
2. use those buildings to build units
3. keep repeating 1&2 until everyone is dead.

The game is 100% combat. And is super deep mechanically and soooo much customization. Which heroes to get out first, whether to go infantry focused, vehicle focused, monster focused, or all 3. I often just play an empty map for 80 turns to perfect my build order for that thing I'm trying to do. I call it turn based starcraft because calling it "4X" imo is not accurate.


Personally I was hesitant with the game as its Slytherine who are competent, but often feel like they are abit resource starved (not quite enough skill within smaller teams in specific areas; or not quite enough budget to realise the full potential). I liken them to a "little Paradox" as they cover very similar genre areas, but the latter has a few big titles that let them have far more money to devote to bigger teams and larger game budgets.

That said Gladius does what it does really well for what it is. I agree its closer to simply turn based strategy rather than pure 4x. I think calling it 4x is more marketing because that segment of games is actually doing rather well whilst RTS And TBS are not doing as well. It is indeed totally combat focused, but like you say it achieves a really fun and good level of fun with its combat. The depth is purely in the army side of things. Unlike many 4x there's no vast research tree (there is research and choices on it are important); or vast array of buildings to get you "lost" in the complexities of building cities as well as combat. If anything I'd say its superior to quite a few other 4x where the split between managing cities and combat tends to result in one taking a loss - often combat can feel very simplistic or you end up with a game where resource management is complex and its very easy to lose because you devoted too much to either the city or the army etc...



It's an overall fun game and very good turnbased strategy game - well worth a punt if you like 40K and strategy

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Yazima wrote:
Kayback wrote:
Space Marine was pretty epic. Did a good job of balancing "realism" of the 40K fluff with gameplay. The ability to commandeer Guard heavy weapons was great.

I wanted to shoot the Inquisitor in the face the second I met him.

I think it was that Skrillex-looking hairstyle that did it for me. Dude deserved a thunderhammer to the face for sure.
It was a great game though, sadly let down by the multiplayer

I quite enjoyed the multiplayer especially the co-op one.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Nimble Glade Rider





pm713 wrote:
Yazima wrote:
Kayback wrote:
Space Marine was pretty epic. Did a good job of balancing "realism" of the 40K fluff with gameplay. The ability to commandeer Guard heavy weapons was great.

I wanted to shoot the Inquisitor in the face the second I met him.

I think it was that Skrillex-looking hairstyle that did it for me. Dude deserved a thunderhammer to the face for sure.
It was a great game though, sadly let down by the multiplayer

I quite enjoyed the multiplayer especially the co-op one.

I mean the support for the multiplayer. It feels like they abandoned the whole thing so early. The horde mode was decent and chaos rising was fun but the player base eroded long before anything really came of it. I remember buying the Dreadnought DLC and it being impossible to get a game within 1-2 weeks of its release
   
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Halifax

I like the notion that each Tyranid has a tiny notional Swarm Lord on one shoulder, and their local Hive Tyrant on the other.

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Gladius is a video game that is justifying Tyranids fighting Tyranids. I think to imply more is overthinking it.

   
Made in us
Raging Ravener




Sterling191 wrote:
Im shocked, shocked! that a mid-budget licensed third party video game takes some liberties with established lore.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Gladius is a video game that is justifying Tyranids fighting Tyranids. I think to imply more is overthinking it.


GW is incredibly protective of their IP. They blew up their deal with blizzard because of lore stuff. So I doubt Gladius or Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 or any officially licensed WH40K game is permitted to take any liberties with established lore.

pm713 wrote:
What perspective is the gladius thing from? Tyranids, mechanicus or what?

I think omniscient narrator. When you meet Imperial Guard they Hive Mind "flexes its psychic muscles". It's impossible for any faction to notice that.
   
 
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