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For units of 6 to 10 models - a roll of a 1 or 2 counts as 3 shots.
For units of 11+ models you get max shots.

Frags are blast weapons.
Tanks can't shoot blast into melee.

If I understand correctly a 3D3 gun will max 9 shots vs 6 models.

I think that's a decent rule. I'm sure it would only get 6 against 6 or more and 9 for 11+.

3D3 weapon will get 9 shots vs 11+.

Where are you guys seeing this? Didn't see it on Warhammer community

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Where are you guys seeing this? Didn't see it on Warhammer community

Stream.

I just hope that this doesn't completely ruin horde armies. Those should be a viable option too, not one or the other.

They just did a live stream.

Website is slow to update, it seems.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/10/having-a-blastgw-homepage-post-1/

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
3D3 weapon will get 9 shots vs 11+.

Doesn't seem to be the case - it will get 9 on 6 models, too.

I think that only D6 weapons will have the blast rule.

Wayniac wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Where are you guys seeing this? Didn't see it on Warhammer community

Stream.

I just hope that this doesn't completely ruin horde armies. Those should be a viable option too, not one or the other.

Yea, I have concerns about how this makes anti-infantry weapons obsolete, too (though these should be anti-infantry weapons). It almost feels like we need multiple saves back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
I think that only D6 weapons will have the blast rule.

Nada. Most random shot weapons that do not auto-hit will be blast.

Read it again, Daed:

"if the DICE ROLLED RESULTS IN LESS THAN 3 SHOTS BEING MADE"

roll 3d3

Roll a 1, a 2, and a 2

Results in 5 shots being made

No adjustment vs 6+ models.

Yeah, the minimum 3 attacks is for the weapon, not for each individual die. So something like a Wyvern (4D6 shots) will get 4D6 shots against 1-10 models, then flat 24 shots against 11+.

Now I'm really interested to see what they're doing to buff hordes, because this sounds pretty nasty.

I'm still kind of holding out hope here (my armies tend to be VERY light infantry heavy) that this means they'll be returning terrain to how it was in every other edition: Much more impactful for light infantry than heavy infantry.

If you make the role of light infantry go from "Required to generate CP for your army" to "The best at hunkering down in terrain and holding objectives" then fair's fair and they still get to have a job.

For several editions now light infantry have had this issue where, they are almost always the least efficient way to deal with heavy stuff, and heavy stuff can efficiently deal with either other heavy stuff or light infantry.

So why ever take any light infantry?

and GW's response has historically been 'because we told you to. Here, you are now required to take 2-3 units of light infantry before you're allowed your dessert"

They have also put in strange loopholes that allow light infantry to punch/annoy above their weight class, like vehicles always using their rear armor in melee (leading to the dreaded Klaw Nob Sergeant one-shotting your tank) or vehicles not being able to shoot when cheapo troops bad touch them.

GW just needs to have the balls to commit to allowing a unit to be annoying to kill.

Ok now I can see it. This rule feels like it should've existed at the start of 8th back in the day of conscript/zombie/Boyz/ and gaunts spam. Not sure if it's really necessary now. Armies like admech, marines, and guards put out so many shot already that it doesn't seem that necessary of a change to me. Not like it would've been in index days, where this would've been a gift from the emperor and well received.

It will all come down to how new points shake out and what the "horde" ability does, if it's a thing and not just a rumor I mistook as a real thing. If marines and vehicles get higher comparitive price bumps than infantry does, these could be necessary rules to help them survive green tide for example. I worry that this will just lead to armies like guard mercilessly pasting hordes, but to be fair, guardsmen will probably be 6ppm now and I highly expect guard tanks getting a significant price bump across the board, a Russ for example will probably be closer to 150-170, possibly even 200pts depending on what else changes.

I'm still waiting to see what else is in store, but this is the first rule to concern me, without other info to go off of at least. Im cool with this if for example morale is reworked to punish smaller units more than big ones, as it should. Then you'd have a genuine trade-off, do you stay small to avoid blast effectiveness but risk men running easier, or do you run big squads for morale insurance at the risk of easier to kill outright units. Also we could just see an outright price increase on blast weapons that balances it out. For example, we could see infantry have to actually pay for their frag grenades now, especially armies that have ways to throw multiple grenades

 catbarf wrote:
Yeah, the minimum 3 attacks is for the weapon, not for each individual die. So something like a Wyvern (4D6 shots) will get 4D6 shots against 1-10 models, then flat 24 shots against 11+.

Now I'm really interested to see what they're doing to buff hordes, because this sounds pretty nasty.

Volcano was specifically called out on stream as 9 shots against 6 models. Possibly they misspoke (or I misheard).

A 2D6 gun than rolls a 1 and a 2 does 3 shots against 10 models, but 12 against 11? Does that make sense to you?

Maybe that's the proper interpretation, because it protects elite units, I guess, but savages the hell out of hordes.

Hmmm. No less than 3 shots against units of 6 or more models. It would seem like it would be nice to have units that could be broken up into 5 man "combat squads" at the start of a battle if your opponent has a lot of blast weapons. Can anyone think of a faction that has a lot of those?

I'm wondering what they're going to do with flamers. On one hand all the "bonus hits vs. large squads" makes sense for them, but on the other hand flamers in melee makes a lot more sense than high-explosives in melee.

They said flamers are not blasts. They talked about how they want them to work in melee.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Hmmm. No less than 3 shots against units of 6 or more models. It would seem like it would be nice to have units that could be broken up into 5 man "combat squads" at the start of a battle if your opponent has a lot of blast weapons. Can anyone think of a faction that has a lot of those?

None come to mind at all, though I usually only field my guys in squads of 5 anyways so no real change for my stuff.

Interesting thought (for me at least): that makes the frag option of guard grenade and missile launchers suddenly much more tempting. It's still just S3 AP0, but the described versatility of frag/krak is a bit better represented.

But as infantry heavy guard player I also hope that the terrain rules will give a chance to let your puny mortals survive now that we seem to see multiple buffs AGAINST hordes

I'm not super happy about this set of rules so far, mostly concerning the numbers and amount of shots. D3 blast weapons getting 3 shots all the time against 6+ models is not great. The max blast weapons for only 11+ is going to be brutal. They're going to need to not raise (Or actively decrease)the price of Horde units otherwise they are going to be pointless.

The terrain rules are going to have to just be bonkers otherwise.

Can confirm in the stream there was a long discussion of volcano cannons, and while the implication *I* got was that versus 11+ models you would get 9 shots, the above ruling would tend to suggest 9 shots versus 6+ models as well.

Seems... kind of logical that D3 damage weapons should instead get a minimum of 2 hits on 6-10 models but there you go.

All in all.... yeah.
If this system came into being at the start of 8th I think it would be fine. Grafting it onto a system which has essentially grown up to get around the weakness of the rule at the outset is however just going to make monsters. Yes I think ye old frag missiles did need a buff. But this just seems daft on things like Basilisks which didn't. (Basilisks probably not the best pick due to their rules, but you get the idea.)

All can be fixed by points perhaps - but I felt the stream was made a bit weird by the fact they kept going on about "you can now really mangle that horde of gaunts with battle cannons and volcano cannons and the humble frag grenade".
Newsflash to GW - no one is going to be running gaunts unless they get some amazing new rules. Those big blobs of Ork Boys also simply won't be on the table after the first month if they are there just to be obliterated.

Unless we start to see some changes to LoS/wound allocation and price changes for blast weapons, and the effects of terrain, it's going to look like the mother of all MSU editions. Given the literal doubling in firepower this will result in for many weapons against hordes, in what is already the most lethal metagame of 40k's history, I'm not sure taking squads above 10 will be terribly viable. Hopefully we'll see some additional changes.

I'm also imagining an Infantry Squad spending 1 CP for Grenadiers and toss 60 attacks at something

the_scotsman wrote:I'm still kind of holding out hope here (my armies tend to be VERY light infantry heavy) that this means they'll be returning terrain to how it was in every other edition: Much more impactful for light infantry than heavy infantry.

If you make the role of light infantry go from "Required to generate CP for your army" to "The best at hunkering down in terrain and holding objectives" then fair's fair and they still get to have a job.

For several editions now light infantry have had this issue where, they are almost always the least efficient way to deal with heavy stuff, and heavy stuff can efficiently deal with either other heavy stuff or light infantry.

So why ever take any light infantry?

and GW's response has historically been 'because we told you to. Here, you are now required to take 2-3 units of light infantry before you're allowed your dessert"

They have also put in strange loopholes that allow light infantry to punch/annoy above their weight class, like vehicles always using their rear armor in melee (leading to the dreaded Klaw Nob Sergeant one-shotting your tank) or vehicles not being able to shoot when cheapo troops bad touch them.

GW just needs to have the balls to commit to allowing a unit to be annoying to kill.

Totally agree with everything in this post; you've hit the nail on the head. Light infantry need a purpose; being able to take advantage of cover is a great one and IMO more satisfying than CP batteries, screening, or gimmicks.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Yeah, the minimum 3 attacks is for the weapon, not for each individual die. So something like a Wyvern (4D6 shots) will get 4D6 shots against 1-10 models, then flat 24 shots against 11+.

Now I'm really interested to see what they're doing to buff hordes, because this sounds pretty nasty.

Volcano was specifically called out on stream as 9 shots against 6 models. Possibly they misspoke (or I misheard).

A 2D6 gun than rolls a 1 and a 2 does 3 shots against 10 models, but 12 against 11? Does that make sense to you?

Maybe that's the proper interpretation, because it protects elite units, I guess, but savages the hell out of hordes.

I missed that Volcano Cannon example; you could be right- but the writing in the actual rule as presented explicitly describes the minimum shots for a weapon, not for an individual die.

I agree, it doesn't make sense to go from a Wyvern doing 14 shots on average against 10 models to a flat 24 shots against 11 models. On the flipside, it doesn't make sense either for a 4D3 weapon to do the same thing against 5 models as against 50.

There are inevitably going to be some peculiar breakpoints; this one at least means that really-high-volume blast weapons will need to target 11+ model units to get their full benefit.

Sasori wrote:I'm not super happy about this set of rules so far, mostly concerning the numbers and amount of shots. D3 blast weapons getting 3 shots all the time against 6+ models is not great. The max blast weapons for only 11+ is going to be brutal. They're going to need to not raise (Or actively decrease)the price of Horde units otherwise they are going to be pointless.

The terrain rules are going to have to just be bonkers otherwise.

Food for thought- if terrain goes back to being a 5+ invuln save, then that 50% increase in survivability would exactly offset the 50% increase in damage when going from 2 shots average to flat 3 shots.

Terrain has the potential to be the equalizer here. I'm really interested to see what they've done. If they're still using the '+1 to your save' system, even if combined with a -1 to hit it's going to still benefit Marines the most and screw over light infantry.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Unless we start to see some changes to LoS/wound allocation and price changes for blast weapons, and the effects of terrain, it's going to look like the mother of all MSU editions. Given the literal doubling in firepower this will result in for many weapons against hordes, in what is already the most lethal metagame of 40k's history, I'm not sure taking squads above 10 will be terribly viable. Hopefully we'll see some additional changes.

I'm also imagining an Infantry Squad spending 1 CP for Grenadiers and toss 60 attacks at something

I won't complain much yet, because it makes Grotesque hordes a lot more risky. I hate those effin' things.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Yeah, the minimum 3 attacks is for the weapon, not for each individual die. So something like a Wyvern (4D6 shots) will get 4D6 shots against 1-10 models, then flat 24 shots against 11+.

Now I'm really interested to see what they're doing to buff hordes, because this sounds pretty nasty.

Volcano was specifically called out on stream as 9 shots against 6 models. Possibly they misspoke (or I misheard).

A 2D6 gun than rolls a 1 and a 2 does 3 shots against 10 models, but 12 against 11? Does that make sense to you?

Maybe that's the proper interpretation, because it protects elite units, I guess, but savages the hell out of hordes.

The phrasing of the rule makes me think they mean 3 shots total and not per die. However, one thing to keep in mind is that GW tend to use the word “dice” when they mean a single die, so minimum 3 per die could be the interpretation they intended if that is what they stated on the stream.

I’m not so sure that the wording is actually ambiguous, but we all know how good GW is at actually writing what they mean.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
3D3 weapon will get 9 shots vs 11+.

No, it doesn't.

Please, read the rule. "A minimum of 3 attacks" is not the same as "Each dice is a minimum of 3". If you roll 3D3, you get a number between 3 and 9. So the "minimum of 3" doesn't actually benefit a 3D3 blast weapon.

Likewise, a 2D6 blast weapon can roll between 2 and 12. If you roll a 2, it becomes 3. If you roll a 3, it stays as a 3.

donaldhuman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Yeah, the minimum 3 attacks is for the weapon, not for each individual die. So something like a Wyvern (4D6 shots) will get 4D6 shots against 1-10 models, then flat 24 shots against 11+.

Now I'm really interested to see what they're doing to buff hordes, because this sounds pretty nasty.

Volcano was specifically called out on stream as 9 shots against 6 models. Possibly they misspoke (or I misheard).

A 2D6 gun than rolls a 1 and a 2 does 3 shots against 10 models, but 12 against 11? Does that make sense to you?

Maybe that's the proper interpretation, because it protects elite units, I guess, but savages the hell out of hordes.

The phrasing of the rule makes me think they mean 3 shots total and not per die. However, one thing to keep in mind is that GW tend to use the word “dice” when they mean a single die, so minimum 3 per die could be the interpretation they intended if that is what they stated on the stream. Although I’m not so sure that the wording is actually ambiguous, but we all know how good GW is at actually writing what they mean.

Yea, my brain conceptualizes the Volanco cannon as three separate blasts. So it stood to reason (in my head) that each dice roll benefits from the blast dynamic. The rule wording is potentially fine if you forget about my mental musings - but also what BCB said above.

A volcano getting NINE shots at any unit with 6-10 models is bonkers and incredibly troubling. I really hope that's not what they meant.

So far, all of the buffs seems to be to shooty gunline armies. Mech Guard looks to be brutal and a hard counter to a lot of melee armies now that they can no longer be stopped from shooting by combat. Granted we're only seeing a small piece of the puzzle that is 9th so far, but the terrain rules and close combat rules will really need to be stellar to keep pace with the boosts to shooting that we've already seen.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Unless we start to see some changes to LoS/wound allocation and price changes for blast weapons, and the effects of terrain, it's going to look like the mother of all MSU editions. Given the literal doubling in firepower this will result in for many weapons against hordes, in what is already the most lethal metagame of 40k's history, I'm not sure taking squads above 10 will be terribly viable. Hopefully we'll see some additional changes.

I'm also imagining an Infantry Squad spending 1 CP for Grenadiers and toss 60 attacks at something

Yeah there basically HAS to be other adjustments that we're not seeing yet because as it stands this looks naaaaaasty.

And I have LOADS of Plasma Cannons ready to go.