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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So here's hoping the shift that balance in other ways.

Support their assault by charging your Assault Intercessors at the same time, and give everything buffs from the aura abilities of your Primaris Lieutenant and Bladeguard Ancient.


In other news they posted a bunch of PL lists. The CSM is almost the same points as before - this is like 460 now and ~440 under this PL.



The marines are 500 points. I presume the Assault Intercessors will be 100. The LT we'll keep at 65, Ancient at 70, and Vets like Vitrix @ 35 for 105. That puts 3 bikes @ 160, which is likely too high so those other units will come up. It seems odd that CSM seems to be staying the same and marines take a good hit. Am I missing something?


   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

It's because they aren't fixing any of our traits or units. They've basically decided that csm are cheaper, inferior, Bargain Basement Marines.

Also, auras need to go away. Thankfully, the Eighth Legion has a stratagem for that.
   
Made in fr
Flashy Flashgitz





If the chapter master aura goes away then I am fine honestly

It is too strong with the cap on neg to hit modifiers

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





The previewed GSC are 499 under current points.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It's because they aren't fixing any of our traits or units. They've basically decided that csm are cheaper, inferior, Bargain Basement Marines.

Also, auras need to go away. Thankfully, the Eighth Legion has a stratagem for that.


Yea, though is it scaled properly with Primaris now? It may be. But then Cultists are 6 -- are they benefiting from something else greatly? Still too much missing from the big picture here.

   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 addnid wrote:
If the chapter master aura goes away then I am fine honestly

It is too strong with the cap on neg to hit modifiers


Hmm, I actually disagree.

The greatest strenght of the CM aura was to mitigate the hit penalties.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Spoletta wrote:
The previewed GSC are 499 under current points.


So they could be roughly the same depending on the flex in PL from upgrades of which they took quite a few.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Spoletta wrote:The previewed GSC are 499 under current points.


Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The previewed GSC are 499 under current points.


So they could be roughly the same depending on the flex in PL from upgrades of which they took quite a few.


Wouldn't surprise me at all if the approach is to hike points on units and armies currently considered good, and leave all the under-performers alone.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Scheming Archon





Between the sacred silence and sleep.

Spoletta wrote:
 addnid wrote:
If the chapter master aura goes away then I am fine honestly

It is too strong with the cap on neg to hit modifiers


Hmm, I actually disagree.

The greatest strenght of the CM aura was to mitigate the hit penalties.


Yes it's good that they have that, it would be a shame if the marines weren't practically auto hitting with just their obnoxious rerolls.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw - 2500 pts

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 catbarf wrote:

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the approach is to hike points on units and armies currently considered good, and leave all the under-performers alone.


Which still begs the question - why Cultists? It feels weird.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Scheming Archon





Between the sacred silence and sleep.

Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.


It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw - 2500 pts

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 harlokin wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.


It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.


I'm curious if that will be the case in the new CP set up. A Patrol is 2 CP, so it seems detachments won't be terribly cheap.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 harlokin wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.


It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.


And RAW, they are better at buffing than Dante or Azrael. Which is why we use the RAI for those models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.


It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.


I'm curious if that will be the case in the new CP set up. A Patrol is 2 CP, so it seems detachments won't be terribly cheap.


You will take the rerolls and forget the detachments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 14:55:22


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Scheming Archon





Between the sacred silence and sleep.

I agree, it's hard to make reasonable judgements without the wider CP context.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw - 2500 pts

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 harlokin wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Or they could trash can the generic chapter master upgrade. Which is the real problematic source of full rerolls.


It's definitely too cheap for what it provides. An auto-take is a sure sign that cost/benefit balance is off.


When it could double to 4 CP and probably still be an auto take, you got a problem, yeah.

If you have to pay 300 points and a lord of war detachment for it, fine.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Martel732 wrote:


You will take the rerolls and forget the detachments.


But then your list building suffers in some respect. Most marine armies run on way more than 3 HQs and a Brigade forces them into other units they may not want.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Reroll 1s are fine, it's full rerolls that are problematic, and in particular the ridiculous full reroll 6" bubble that the chapter master trait gives.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:


You will take the rerolls and forget the detachments.


But then your list building suffers in some respect. Most marine armies run on way more than 3 HQs and a Brigade forces them into other units they may not want.


I don't think it suffers remotely enough. Have you seen how many units marines have? Against a -1 to hit, the vanilla chapter master is a 50% increase in firepower. You can't get that anywhere else in the codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 15:06:09


 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

GW has stated that all models points cost will increase in 9th, but even a 1 point increase is an increase.

Interestingly, the Chaos Space Marine army is the same PL in this sample list as it is now. However, it is also only 363 points. That's a lot of space for points increases on those models. Also, not having actually PL per unit, there is lots of flex space in that list for units PL and Points to change.

Correction: I forgot to add the second Obliterator to the list. CSM List is currently 28 PL and 458 points.

More interesting is that the Genestealer Cult list is currently PL 26 versus the 22 shown, and clocks in at 479 points. If it is only 22 PL in 9th, that indicates a points value closer to 430-450 points. If the value of models goes up, the value of some upgrades may be going down in 9th, at least for this list.

Very, very interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 15:26:16


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Uhhuh this was non-news to begin with.

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Martel732 wrote:


I don't think it suffers remotely enough. Have you seen how many units marines have? Against a -1 to hit, the vanilla chapter master is a 50% increase in firepower. You can't get that anywhere else in the codex.


Coverage matters. Chapter master, LT, and one other HQ does not cover a ton with more mobile missions.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:


I don't think it suffers remotely enough. Have you seen how many units marines have? Against a -1 to hit, the vanilla chapter master is a 50% increase in firepower. You can't get that anywhere else in the codex.


Coverage matters. Chapter master, LT, and one other HQ does not cover a ton with more mobile missions.


But doesn't matter enough. That's the problem. It's that crazy.

Even if I agreed with you, it just puts the snowflake chapters in an even worse position.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 15:13:08


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 alextroy wrote:

Interestingly, the Chaos Space Marine army is the same PL in this sample list as it is now. However, it is also only 363 points. That's a lot of space for points increases on those models. Also, not having actually PL per unit, there is lots of flex space in that list for units PL and Points to change.



Hmm... The CSM list has little upgrade flex in PL, so --

MoP - 88
CSM - 55 + 4 + 7
Oblits - 95 + 95
VC - 115

459 total. 22 PL is 440. So, theoretically the CSM could go up 1 point each, but their PL stays.

If MoP is 90ish then he's 5 PL. Oblits could be 100 and still 5 PL. VC will be above 100, so 6 PL. That leaves just 1 PL for the CSM.

I'm so confused. They could be rounding PL down now, too?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 15:20:50


   
Made in gb
Numberless Necron Warrior




UK

Even with a nerf to Chapter Master there are a good number of units in the Marine dex that are far, far too cheap currently. Even without taking into account CM or any stratagems and chapter tactics, these units are costed so low that they are a massive problem. But you add those things in and they become ridiculous.

Assault Centurions are so absurd that they're easily worth their points even if you were to ignore the drills and never get them into CC.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Martel732 wrote:


But doesn't matter enough. That's the problem. It's that crazy.

Even if I agreed with you, it just puts the snowflake chapters in an even worse position.


It matters. People were mixing and matching a ton. Chappies were abundant as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 15:22:37


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:


But doesn't matter enough. That's the problem. It's that crazy.

Even if I agreed with you, it just puts the snowflake chapters in an even worse position.


It matters. People were mixing and matching a ton. Chappies were abundant as well.



I agree it matters. Just not compared to the full reroll aura,.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





This is interesting.


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

I would assume that they're just explicitly codifying two choices for 'you have started your turn in melee': Fall Back, or stay where you are and shoot Pistols.
   
Made in us
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 catbarf wrote:
I would assume that they're just explicitly codifying two choices for 'you have started your turn in melee': Fall Back, or stay where you are and shoot Pistols.


Seems like a weird term for that. Almost feel like its a +1 to hit for not moving sort of thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also that blurb kills the idea of Fallback moving to end of Shooting (not that it was likely anyway).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/26 15:55:17


   
 
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