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This thread is for discussing army building and strategy with a CHAOS or <DEITY> force that specifically uses units from multiple Codices, one of them being Chaos Daemons, with an emphasis of cross-codex synergy and overlap (for instance, auras and psychic powers that benefit <DEITY> DAEMON units not from the Chaos Daemons list). This may be a thematic monotheism, or a competitive ‘soup’ list with a strong emphasis on moving parts and stacking effects.

Whilst Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines have always been factionally aligned - and, for many years, shared a Codex - Daemonkin’s origin is in a 7th edition Codex focussing on Khorne. This volume was not not followed by the other deities, nor revised for 8th edition; instead, the rules for Chaos forces are now written with mortal-daemonic pacts in mind. The limited edition 8th edition Codex Daemonkin was an in-box rules pamphlet covering some new releases, most of them strongly able to benefit from this synergy. They have since been released as Start Collecting: Chaos Space Marines, and their rules have been integrated into that faction’s Codex.

Daemonkin lists usually - but not always - use at least one <DEITY> detachment solely containing Codex: Chaos Daemons units to unlock the powerful Locus auras. A cross-Codex <DEITY> detachment (for instance, a NURGLE Spearhead detachment containing a Poxbringer, a Word Bearers Defiler, an Iron Warriors Obliterator, and a Death Guard Plagueburst Crawler) is perfectly legal, but does not unlock any factional perks or Codex-specific Stratagems, which are usually key ‘moving parts’ that define a Daemonkin list. Alternatively, Daemonkin may have a focus on Chaos Daemons units, with mortal worshippers using abilities that disrupt the enemy in a way that enhances the Daemons (for instance, Morale and Ld debuffs to make various Slaaneshi abilities more reliable) - or vice-versa, the mortals exploiting the hubris of the supernatural (against some lists, simply unlocking the Daemonic Possession Stratagem can be a winning move). Sometimes, they use Summoning rules to flexibly respond to surprises, or to bypass the limits on and penalties from taking multiple detachments. Finally, it is worth nothing that fielding a detachment drawn from Codex: Chaos Daemons unlocks some powerful Stratagems that can only be used on units from that Codex; however, some of them generate aura effects that do benefit Daemon units from other Codexes. General aura effect modifiers are useful assets, enabling larger coverage of bonuses.

Cherry-picking Chaos units that are presently undercosted is fair enough if that’s how you roll, but that sort of thing usually gets obsoleted by rules revisions and should be considered a short-term advantage - I don’t recommend heavily focusing your purchases and hobby queue on a balancing oversight that sneaked in to the current Chapter Approved.

The general building blocks of these synergy lists include:

Chaos Space Marines

Death Guard

Thousand Sons

Chaos Knights

Other

This discussion does not replace or compete with the current Codex-specific tactica discussion threads, which are the ideal place to look for how single factions stand on their own merit:

Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition

Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]

Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed

All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!

Codex Chaos Knights - Honour Through Annihilation

If the above threads fall out of use and a more active and up to date thread develops, post about it in the comments and it’ll get edited.

If this gets bloated, then to help with indexing for newcomers, I’ll do my best to link to notable comments below with a summary digest, with most recent contributions first and striking of ideas that get shot down by FAQs and updates:

TBC

So you lose Locus of Virulence, but I'm thinking Nurgle Possessed and summoning in a Poxbringer and bringing a Feculant Gnarlmaw (I think you can take a fortification detachment without losing CP, or worst case it costs 1) is going to be pretty good. Locus of Virulence is a big loss but being able to reasonably Advance + Charge and get cover under the Gnarlmaw without using Horticulous to summon it is a good tradeoff, I think?

Advance & charge is probably a better ability than extra damage on 6’s. Certainly, it’s more of a game-changer - it drastically changes the way that units operate, especially if they're going to be Warptimed.

Also, hopefully it will unlock the Codex Daemons stratagems, which is the other downside to summoning.

What’s the plan with the Poxbringer, strength buff & virulent blessing?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Advance & charge is probably a better ability than extra damage on 6’s. Certainly, it’s more of a game-changer - it drastically changes the way that units operate, especially if they're going to be Warptimed.

Also, hopefully it will unlock the Codex Daemons stratagems, which is the other downside to summoning.

What’s the plan with the Poxbringer, strength buff & virulent blessing?

Yup, Gnarlmaw will unlock Codex Daemons stratagems as it would be in a Chaos Daemons detachment . And yup, the poxbringer is for virulent blessing. I hadn't even considered the strength buff (I assume the Possessed will be too far out of range when they're in combat).

Assuming a character half an inch from the deployment line summons, the effective reach on a locus is just under 16”, which isn’t impossible to conga back to - especially if the possessed have to file around terrain and converge on a target

That said, Possessed are already S5, and the benefits from notching that up are somewhat limited. T6 usually has few enough wounds that they can take it down, it’s S789 that are the big jumps

Are there CP costs for soup in 9th? I was thinking of putting together a fluffy army of daemon engine-heavy Brazen Beasts coupled with a detachment of bloodcrushers, skullcannons, a skullmaster, and maybe a soul grinder.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Are there CP costs for soup in 9th? I was thinking of putting together a fluffy army of daemon engine-heavy Brazen Beasts coupled with a detachment of bloodcrushers, skullcannons, a skullmaster, and maybe a soul grinder.

There are. Your Warlord’s detachment is CP-neutral, as long as it’s one of the ones with mandatory Troops, but your other detachments cost a few CP. For e diversity costs CP, rather than farming it. Which is fair enough - those Loci are like an always-on stratagem, as long as the heralds stay alive.

I suspect Daemonkin will be for Chaos the direct opposite to the loyalists’ enhanced chapter tactics.

 lindsay40k wrote:

I suspect Daemonkin will be for Chaos the direct opposite to the loyalists’ enhanced chapter tactics.

How do you mean? Something that's a mechanical strength added for staying within one God's service across CSM/Daemon Detachments? Or soup we jank together to try and keep pace at a CP penalty?

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Are there CP costs for soup in 9th? I was thinking of putting together a fluffy army of daemon engine-heavy Brazen Beasts coupled with a detachment of bloodcrushers, skullcannons, a skullmaster, and maybe a soul grinder.

There are. Your Warlord’s detachment is CP-neutral, as long as it’s one of the ones with mandatory Troops, but your other detachments cost a few CP. For e diversity costs CP, rather than farming it. Which is fair enough - those Loci are like an always-on stratagem, as long as the heralds stay alive.

I suspect Daemonkin will be for Chaos the direct opposite to the loyalists’ enhanced chapter tactics.

I am aware of the costs of additional, non-warlord detachments. I'm just curious if I put in another detachment that's for daemons, will that cost more than if I have the same type of detachment but for more CSM units.

 Eldarain wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

I suspect Daemonkin will be for Chaos the direct opposite to the loyalists’ enhanced chapter tactics.

How do you mean? Something that's a mechanical strength added for staying within one God's service across CSM/Daemon Detachments? Or soup we jank together to try and keep pace at a CP penalty?

I mean the mechanical synergy we can unlock

A DEITY DAEMON detachment’s locus adds a bonus that’s potentially more powerful than a Chapter or Legion trait

Loyalist Astartes get perks for being a monoculture force (which are a hangover of attempts to balance 8ed and reduce the ubiquity of the Loyal 32), we get perks for DEITY coalitions that throw bonuses all over the pace

Had a thought that Red Corsairs might be good for daemonkin now. With 3 Chaos Space Marine Units as a tax, you get the CP for a non-Brigade detachment of daemons (or +1 if you bring a patrol) and Advance+Charge. So if you bring Nurgle Possessed you still get the +1D on 6s and don't need to spend points on a gnarlmaw for advance+charge, or you can go Khorne to get the loci and advance+charge and fight twice. Would have to test it out but I think there's potential here.

Rihgu wrote:
Had a thought that Red Corsairs might be good for daemonkin now. With 3 Chaos Space Marine Units as a tax, you get the CP for a non-Brigade detachment of daemons (or +1 if you bring a patrol) and Advance+Charge. So if you bring Nurgle Possessed you still get the +1D on 6s and don't need to spend points on a gnarlmaw for advance+charge, or you can go Khorne to get the loci and advance+charge and fight twice. Would have to test it out but I think there's potential here.

Hmm. DK can be really CP-hungry. A trio of backfield screening Heretac units with a cheap big gun each, Possessed not needing a Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi hero, summon in the auras and casters you need? I like it!

Could also apply to Mutilators. Drop into cover by an occupied objective, tank the guards’ firepower, run out and beat them down. Not being anchored to your predeployed heroes could really extend reach.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FAQs have dropped

We can’t Warptime a Flyer any more. Dang, that came in handy when I threw a Heldrake up a 72” board to eat Njal Stormcaller

FWIW, Knights Tyrant seem to need LoS with their character sniper missile

Didn’t see anything massive, mostly just rewording to refer to engagement range and look out, sir

So Nurgle Daemonkin focused around the newly much sturdier GUO. Winning missions seems to be about getting on and holding objectives.

Would a core of Mutilators and Obliterators around tubby work? Could add a tree as well.

Do all the Daemon book tricks work on them? Bell returning Cult models? Healing/resurrection Strat also bringing back Cult models. Virulent+Vets on Mutilators making an absolute mess of things?

Poxbringer making the Venomcrawlers Str 9 on both profiles as well as helping out Oblit fire. Locus seems to buff shooting as well from what I can tell.

Between the Possession buffs and the Daemon ones seems like some really interesting possibilities.

I've never been completely clear on the inter book synergy. Does all of that work? I am confused by the "once the battle begins keywords don't have a factional distinction and the strats only work on factional Daemons. Is that for pregame purposes?

Stratagems from the codex daemons only work on daemons from the codex daemons.

Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses
the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with
the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon
Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the
Daemon Faction keyword.

As for synergy, you need to look for keywords. Some abilities say <LEGION> DAEMON, those only work on csm daemons, like cursed earth, or sacrifice. If another ability says NURGLE DAEMON, or only DAEMON, it works on any of those units, no matter from which codex they are from. The GUO bell can bring back slain oblits and mutis, because it says NURGLE DAEMON. The nurgle tree also buffs oblits and mutis, because of NURGLE DAEMON. Poxbringer buffs venomcrawlers, because it says NURGLE DAEMON. Poxbringer doesnt help oblits firing. Their strength characteristic is S+1, which is not their weapon strength, this is different from the venomcrawler, which uses its strength characteristic to shoot.

Thank you for that p5freak. Very helpful.

red corsairs indeed seem like a natural coice, granted you loose out on votwl for csm, lord discordants that can advance and charge seem quite nice to have without more investment.

Also, 3 x 10 csm works out potentially in your favour considering that you still can recycle them without additional cost.

 Eldarain wrote:
Thank you for that p5freak. Very helpful.

Actually this FAQ about stratagems for codex daemons is from 8th edition, so it doesnt apply for 9th. We have to wait until 9th is released, if there is a day 1 FAQ which says something about it.

 Eldarain wrote:
So Nurgle Daemonkin focused around the newly much sturdier GUO. Winning missions seems to be about getting on and holding objectives.

Would a core of Mutilators and Obliterators around tubby work? Could add a tree as well.

Their rules would interact, but Muties are so slow, they’re best off teleporting to where they gots to be. Oblits can work as a deployed unit because they’ve got ranged attacks.

Do all the Daemon book tricks work on them? Bell returning Cult models? Healing/resurrection Strat also bringing back Cult models. Virulent+Vets on Mutilators making an absolute mess of things?

Sadly, Virulent & Vets doesn’t stack - it only offsets a potential -1 to wound, as modifiers can’t total beyond +/-1. The Chaos Daemons Revolting Regeneration strat can’t be used on units from outside that Codex, but the identical Granfather’s Blessings from CSM can.

Poxbringer making the Venomcrawlers Str 9 on both profiles as well as helping out Oblit fire. Locus seems to buff shooting as well from what I can tell.

The Locus a Poxbringer gets for turning up doesn’t help Oblits, but the Locus of Virulence that all heroes in a Nurgle Daemons detachment get absolutely does.

I've never been completely clear on the inter book synergy. Does all of that work? I am confused by the "once the battle begins keywords don't have a factional distinction and the strats only work on factional Daemons. Is that for pregame purposes?

It is somewhat contradictory. Play it safe and only play strats from Codex chaos daemons on units from that book, that’s the Rules As Intended reading that’ll avoid getting you into trouble when the FAQ tightens the legal language.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Thank you for that p5freak. Very helpful.

Actually this FAQ about stratagems for codex daemons is from 8th edition, so it doesnt apply for 9th. We have to wait until 9th is released, if there is a day 1 FAQ which says something about it.

We have a 9ed FAQ on the WC website

Is there a thread for 9th edition Daemons?

So... with scoring being paramount in 9th edition...

Massed nurglings might be a decent unit to deny objectives early in game and could conceivably appear in every table corner for other secondaries.

I just can't decide on the optimal unit size.

Is it better to go full-on MSU of 3 base nurglings? Or Max squad? Or unit size of 5 to avoid max-hit blast weapons?

The strats like Cloud of Flies and Nurgling Infestations (can recover a base on 5+ if lost in any phase other than in Morale).

The changes to battalion and patrol detachments might have a fundamental impact on Nurgling use

There’s no obligation to take three troops to maximise CP, and if you’re after a Bilepiper plus a load of Nurglings it might be worth taking one big unit

LOS changes plus objectives getting placed outside of cover might make MSU infiltrators strong

editted

I reckon run Nurglings in max squad size. Blast doesn't make that much difference. A d6 goes from averaging 3.5 shots to 4 shots, hardly make or break IMO. It will allow you to get better mileage from Nurgling infestation.

I feel like Nurgle soup with DG and Daemons of Nurgle can still work pretty well. GUO reviving Blighthaulers sounds fun. Quick question though: has there been a ruling if you can spend 2CP on Exalted Daemon to pick 2 traits you want (i.e. T8 and 4+++ for GUO)?

 Bane1778 wrote:
I feel like Nurgle soup with DG and Daemons of Nurgle can still work pretty well. GUO reviving Blighthaulers sounds fun. Quick question though: has there been a ruling if you can spend 2CP on Exalted Daemon to pick 2 traits you want (i.e. T8 and 4+++ for GUO)?

Ruling will come soon, as exalted exalted exalted GUO doesn’t make a lot of sense to be honest.

Does a straight nurgle list work now from a competitive sense? Eyeballing the secondaries they are frequently hard to max out - but with nurglings and a ton of plaguebearers it should be possible to (if not max then close) recon and any of the 'infantry' focused objectives. Finally even While We stand we fight might be viable if for example its a spoilpox scriviner, poxbringer and sloppity bilepiper embedded in a huge army of plagues (as it is highest value 'model' not unit). I know daemons are supposedly super underpowered but in true nurgle fashion I wonder if we can just outlast on objectives. A sample list:

Poxbringer
Spoilpox
Bilepiper
x4 Nurgling
x4 Nurgling
x4 Nurgling
30 plagues (banner et al)
30 plagues (banner et al)
30 plagues (banner et al)
x4 Drones (banner et al)
x4 Drones (banner et al)
x4 Drones (banner et al)

Gnarlmaw

Just a rough build, sure it can be optimized - total is 1991 points...

Since the number of characters is also low it would give up few secondaries - in some ways against a nurgle list having an opponent select Thin Their Ranks may be a trap.

That's not really much of a daemonkin list, lacking the -kin (possessed, obliterators, daemon engines, etc) but I do think that that's a solid nurgle daemon list!

What do you guys think about this analysis by O´Donnel here?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15ZDVlyHgLEWM-jxNIvJ7jnqGp4dGwZOZ/view

 Emicrania wrote:
What do you guys think about this analysis by O´Donnel here?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15ZDVlyHgLEWM-jxNIvJ7jnqGp4dGwZOZ/view

It seems like a well reasoned and founded set of analysis, if nobody raises any major criticisms over the coming days I’ll add a link to it to the OP

Gutted about Epidemius, I loved building lists around trying to max him out and all of the crit of him here checks out :(

Did anyone notice that splitting horrors doesnt cost reinforcement points anymore ?