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Made in us
Happy Imperial Citizen



Pennsylvania

Abbadon - 220
Sorcerer - 90
Master of Possession - 95

10x Cultists- 60

3x Obliterators - 315
3x Obliterators - 315
3x Obliterators - 315

Daemon Prince - 200

10x Cultists- 60
10x Cultists- 60

10x Terminators - 270

2000

So I got this list mostly from Tabletop Titans on Youtube. I'm brand new to the hobby, don't have an army put together yet or know/understand all of the rules, but have some of these pieces already. There seems to be potential according to the list builder. I took out 10 CSM as well as 10 Berzerkers to include 3 more Obliterators. Would this be a decent list and is it even legal? What changes would you make?
   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut






The list is legal except you have 1 hq too much, if you take it as a battllion. So you need to get a patrol detatchment somehow.

I too have been tinkering with a similar list. TTT mentions this list trying to dominate midfield with shooting and sending the terminators forth to counter and seize objectives.

Since the first group of obliterators with stratagems shoots more damage than the other two combined, i think dropping one squad of oblits is smart. Perhaps 9 slanesh bikers 5o clear out hordes with double shots and a chainsword assault (statistically killes 3 x 10 units of geqs). Defilers are also good, or even just berzerkers in a rhino or more terminators.
   
Made in us
Happy Imperial Citizen



Pennsylvania

The Bikers sounds like a fun time. They’ll give some mobility and speed and can grab early objectives.
So I should drop 3 oblits and a sorcerer maybe? Would that clear up the HQ, or does dropping the oblits accomplish that by itself?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Welcome aboard.

Honestly I feel the oblits are not as good as they are implying. While still very destructive they are now more swingy due to changes to cmd reroll strat and cutting 4" off the board really doesn't change their viability as sloggers enough to be spamming them IMO.
9 was not really a thing last edition and now compare to the new eradicators for example.

I would second the suggestion to drop 1 unit. Alternately you could go with iron warriors for the best oblits now due to several strong strats which really benefit them.

Either way if they are your heavy lifters I would be looking at MoS for endless cacophony and then mutated invigoration power and possibly gaze of fate access from daemons or Tsons.

Another alternative is alpha legion and doubling down on one unit with conceal and as many of the tools mentioned above as you can fit. The benefit is an untargettable unit that shoots like more than 2. The drawback is very cp and resource intensive. Mine often used upwards of 9 by turn 2. So I would say this is now the less attractive option.
   
Made in us
Happy Imperial Citizen



Pennsylvania

So would dropping a unit of the cultists, and trading one unit of the oblits out for bikers, or maybe even a venomcrawler or 2, be reasonable?
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker




New York

Is your heart set on Black Legion?

You don't really have anything that's taking advantage of the Legion trait or strats.

Abaddon is nice, but with Prescience, you're going to be hitting on 2's and rerolling 1's with a Lord anyway.

Iron Warriors will allow your Oblits to ignore cover and you get access to very relevant strats as well as a warlord trait to get exploding 6's
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

Black Legion Battalion Detachment - cost 0cp

Abbadon - 220
Sorcerer - 90
Master of Possession - 95

10x Cultists- 60
10x Cultists- 60
10x Cultists- 60

3x Obliterators - 315
3x Obliterators - 315
3x Obliterators - 315

10x Terminators - 270

Black Legion Auxillary Support Detachment - Cost 2cp

Daemon Prince - 200

2000

The issue I see is not enough bodies., but at least everything is durable. I'd far rather see combi-plasma/chain axe wielding terminators than a 3rd unit of oblits. Since the DP can be put into reserves... I suggest making him Emporers Children, take his wings off and use honour the prince to guarantee he charges in and makes combat and probably earning his points back. For that matter maybe a disco lord is even better.


   
Made in us
Happy Imperial Citizen



Pennsylvania

I’m not devoted to Black Legion. But I do want Abby. I’d be willing to take out the Prince for a Disco Lord because he works well with MoP too right? I don’t need the 9 oblits, but I’d like the 6. I’m just not 100% positive on all of the interactions. Currently the stuff I own is a Start Playing CSM and Abby. I’m just trying to figure something out with that stuff. But I’d also like something semi competitive and affordable.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker




New York

SweetManaT wrote:
I’m not devoted to Black Legion. But I do want Abby. I’d be willing to take out the Prince for a Disco Lord because he works well with MoP too right? I don’t need the 9 oblits, but I’d like the 6. I’m just not 100% positive on all of the interactions. Currently the stuff I own is a Start Playing CSM and Abby. I’m just trying to figure something out with that stuff. But I’d also like something semi competitive and affordable.


Hopefully Abaddon will become a Supreme Commander in 9th, but we are going to have to wait awhile for that.

Since you have the model and he's really much less useful if you're not utilizing his reroll aura, let's start down the Abby road.


A Lord Discordant with Baleflamer can rock the Sightless Helm to great effect (Same with the Autocannon, since the native + and the - from helm will cancel out leaving him at a BS of 2+.

Basic CSM enjoy the BL trait because you'll be able to advance and still get use out of your rapid fire weapons. Just be careful with plasma as you'll currently overheat on a 1 or 2 due to the -1 to hit.

Bikers will unfortunately lose out on double shots if you advance, but you're still covering 20" and getting two shots per model. I like to run mine in 4-model squads with 2 flamers and a combi-flamer to dedicate them to anti-infantry.


Most Black Legion lists have focus on having a core blob that moves up the board around Abaddon. CSM excel at mid-field fightning, so you're doing this anyway. Sometimes this takes the form of massive blobs of now-fearless cultists that are drowning your opponent in mass autogun fire. You can honestly stick almost anything with Abaddon and enjoy it. Dreadnoughts of any flavor are great. I personally love Havocs (usually I run 2 squads with Lascannons and 1 with Missile Launchers or Autocannons), who just happen to be enjoying a very favorable price cut in 9th. Defilers are also very hot right now for similar reasons.


A very classic strategy for CSM is to take a unit with ranged firepower (mainly Havocs or Obliterators, but they must be infantry) and buff them up with Prescience (+1 to hit), keep them near a reroll aura, use Veterans of the Long War to give them +1 to wound, and any other wound buffs (you don't really have any others in Black Legion). Fire away and at the end of your shooting phase, use Endless Cacophany to shoot again with your buffed up unit.

Building on this, some lists like to mix Havocs and Obliterators. You keep the Obliterators in reserves, then buff the Havocs for the first turn. As you move up the board, bring down the Obliterators and buff them instead.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc






Battle Barge Impossible Fortress

The cheap terminators are awesome. I love them. Just consider that they will be competing with the Oblits for buffs since both are very solid infantry choices. I would make them Mark of Khorne and do the dirty in melee. The list seems ok after playing a few 9th games with the new CA packet. You need to work those secondaries.

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Semper Fi! 2nd Bn 8th Marines Weapons Co (2003-2008)
 
   
Made in us
Happy Imperial Citizen



Pennsylvania

 Dr. What wrote:
SweetManaT wrote:
I’m not devoted to Black Legion. But I do want Abby. I’d be willing to take out the Prince for a Disco Lord because he works well with MoP too right? I don’t need the 9 oblits, but I’d like the 6. I’m just not 100% positive on all of the interactions. Currently the stuff I own is a Start Playing CSM and Abby. I’m just trying to figure something out with that stuff. But I’d also like something semi competitive and affordable.


Hopefully Abaddon will become a Supreme Commander in 9th, but we are going to have to wait awhile for that.

Since you have the model and he's really much less useful if you're not utilizing his reroll aura, let's start down the Abby road.


A Lord Discordant with Baleflamer can rock the Sightless Helm to great effect (Same with the Autocannon, since the native + and the - from helm will cancel out leaving him at a BS of 2+.

Basic CSM enjoy the BL trait because you'll be able to advance and still get use out of your rapid fire weapons. Just be careful with plasma as you'll currently overheat on a 1 or 2 due to the -1 to hit.

Bikers will unfortunately lose out on double shots if you advance, but you're still covering 20" and getting two shots per model. I like to run mine in 4-model squads with 2 flamers and a combi-flamer to dedicate them to anti-infantry.


Most Black Legion lists have focus on having a core blob that moves up the board around Abaddon. CSM excel at mid-field fightning, so you're doing this anyway. Sometimes this takes the form of massive blobs of now-fearless cultists that are drowning your opponent in mass autogun fire. You can honestly stick almost anything with Abaddon and enjoy it. Dreadnoughts of any flavor are great. I personally love Havocs (usually I run 2 squads with Lascannons and 1 with Missile Launchers or Autocannons), who just happen to be enjoying a very favorable price cut in 9th. Defilers are also very hot right now for similar reasons.


A very classic strategy for CSM is to take a unit with ranged firepower (mainly Havocs or Obliterators, but they must be infantry) and buff them up with Prescience (+1 to hit), keep them near a reroll aura, use Veterans of the Long War to give them +1 to wound, and any other wound buffs (you don't really have any others in Black Legion). Fire away and at the end of your shooting phase, use Endless Cacophany to shoot again with your buffed up unit.

Building on this, some lists like to mix Havocs and Obliterators. You keep the Obliterators in reserves, then buff the Havocs for the first turn. As you move up the board, bring down the Obliterators and buff them instead.


Thank you for the info! So what might a list using Abby look like for you? I love some of the ideas you gave, but don’t exactly know how to implement them. Currently I’m in the process of moving and looking for another job, so I haven’t been able to purchase any of the codices yet. I understand most of the basics and want to get into the deeper game, just have to wait for now. I understand that the Black Legions main benefit is moving and shooting correct? Thanks everyone for the help and understanding so far!
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker




New York

SweetManaT wrote:


Thank you for the info! So what might a list using Abby look like for you? I love some of the ideas you gave, but don’t exactly know how to implement them. Currently I’m in the process of moving and looking for another job, so I haven’t been able to purchase any of the codices yet. I understand most of the basics and want to get into the deeper game, just have to wait for now. I understand that the Black Legions main benefit is moving and shooting correct? Thanks everyone for the help and understanding so far!


The BL trait basically mitigates a lot of the costs of advancing. The best thing you can do is play lots of games to get comfortable with the rules and figure out what units you like.

Also in full disclosure, I play Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors by preference and 9th edition is kind of awkward for CSM due to our price hikes, losing easy access to more HQ slots, and feeling quite pale in comparison to loyalists.

I would recommend starting out with a Battalion detachment. You must take at least 2 HQ's and 3 troops, but it has the most flexibility. Furthermore, units that can both push enemies off of objectives and are durable enough to hold objectives are highly desirable.

So for the core of your list, consider something like:

Abaddon
Sorcerer (If you have the points, Terminator Armor or a Jump Pack are both great upgrades if you need durability or mobility respectively). If I'm running a Sorc, I tend to give them the mark of Tzeentch so I can use the strat to manifest an additional power, but Slaanesh offers you Delightful Agonies and Nurgle gives you Miasma, both of which will make any unit more durable (it makes those cultists miserable to shift). I recommend Prescience + either Warptime or the durability granting power of your choice.

At least 1 Cultist Blob (20-30 of them). Give them autoguns and don't really worry about any additional gear. They protect your HQ's from being shot, become incredibly potent and durable near Abaddon (immunity to morale + full rerolls). In addition, if they ever get low on models, check out the Tide of Traitors strat (you get to return them to the board at full strength).

2 Squads of 5-10 Chaos Space Marines. With Black Legion, it's reasonable to just go for bolters + combi-bolter, but packing a plasma gun + combi-plasma is never an awful choice because they're flexible.



So for the following:

Abaddon
Sorcerer
2x5 Chaos Space Marines with a plasma gun and the champ has a combi-plasma and chainsword
30 Cultists w/ autoguns

That's going to run you 670 points, leaving 1330 points to fill with goodies.

The Lord Discordant is very strong, but unfortunately lacks the ability to be protected via Look Out, Sir.

A Daemon Prince (always with wings, but the melee weapon of your choice) can be protected, can be a psyker, and while unfortunately quite expensive at the moment, still a solid model. You can give it Warptime for 24" of movement before charging or Diabolic Strength to make it hit harder in melee. Going the latter route and giving it double Malefic Talons and the Intoxicating Elixir relic will give you a 12" flying monster that can dish out 10 attacks on the charge at S10, with an AP of -2 and dealing D2. That means it's a solid melee threat against basically anything, but especially tanks and Primaris. Don't forget that it also has a reroll aura that it benefits from.

For anti-tank, you can choose from a variety of options.

Personally, I like to run two squads of Lascannon Havocs for the reasons I mentioned before. Really, you can run just about anything here as they'll benefit from Abby's aura.

If you find that you're running a fair few units with the daemon keyword, consider a Master of Possession for your 3rd HQ (or swap the Sorc for it), especially if you decide not to use Havocs.

If you want additional protection, consider 1-2 Rhinos. You can deploy your Havocs and/or CSM inside of them at the start of the game, then disembark them within Abby's aura when it's your turn for a bit of added safety.

For more speed, definitely look at Bikes. They're fast and durable. Bolter Discipline/Malicious Volleys makes them always fire double shots at max range, which is delicious.

Terminators make for a very durable unit. You can keep them cheap with chainaxes (possibly sprinkle in a couple power/chain fists) and combi-bolters, or give them all combi-plasmas and unload with VotLW + Cacophany. The downside is getting all of the bits to do that (thank chaos for shapeways).

Rubric Marines are a bit pricy, but they are durable and having AP on bolters is nice. If you cast a defensive power on top of them as well, they become increasingly difficult to shift.

If you want more HQ's (for example, I like to run two Daemon Princes so that I can slingshot them up the board and into melee on the first turn, while also having a Lord, Sorc, and sometimes a 5th HQ), consider running a patrol on top of your battalion (or just running two patrols and no battalion). It'll cost you 2 CP, but that isn't much and if you really want that CP, let Abby be your warlord to make it "free."

Avoid taking any icons (the Khorne one is essential for melee units, but the rest suck).

As an aside, you should definitely consider learning how to magnetize your models. You don't have to do it to all of them, but for example, my CSM squads all have 1 model with an arm and hand that comes off so I can swap out special weapons and each champion is magnetized to allow for different wargear. My terminators are also magnetized so I can swap out what they're equipped with.
   
Made in us
Happy Imperial Citizen



Pennsylvania

 Dr. What wrote:
SweetManaT wrote:


Thank you for the info! So what might a list using Abby look like for you? I love some of the ideas you gave, but don’t exactly know how to implement them. Currently I’m in the process of moving and looking for another job, so I haven’t been able to purchase any of the codices yet. I understand most of the basics and want to get into the deeper game, just have to wait for now. I understand that the Black Legions main benefit is moving and shooting correct? Thanks everyone for the help and understanding so far!


The BL trait basically mitigates a lot of the costs of advancing. The best thing you can do is play lots of games to get comfortable with the rules and figure out what units you like.

Also in full disclosure, I play Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors by preference and 9th edition is kind of awkward for CSM due to our price hikes, losing easy access to more HQ slots, and feeling quite pale in comparison to loyalists.

I would recommend starting out with a Battalion detachment. You must take at least 2 HQ's and 3 troops, but it has the most flexibility. Furthermore, units that can both push enemies off of objectives and are durable enough to hold objectives are highly desirable.

So for the core of your list, consider something like:

Abaddon
Sorcerer (If you have the points, Terminator Armor or a Jump Pack are both great upgrades if you need durability or mobility respectively). If I'm running a Sorc, I tend to give them the mark of Tzeentch so I can use the strat to manifest an additional power, but Slaanesh offers you Delightful Agonies and Nurgle gives you Miasma, both of which will make any unit more durable (it makes those cultists miserable to shift). I recommend Prescience + either Warptime or the durability granting power of your choice.

At least 1 Cultist Blob (20-30 of them). Give them autoguns and don't really worry about any additional gear. They protect your HQ's from being shot, become incredibly potent and durable near Abaddon (immunity to morale + full rerolls). In addition, if they ever get low on models, check out the Tide of Traitors strat (you get to return them to the board at full strength).

2 Squads of 5-10 Chaos Space Marines. With Black Legion, it's reasonable to just go for bolters + combi-bolter, but packing a plasma gun + combi-plasma is never an awful choice because they're flexible.



So for the following:

Abaddon
Sorcerer
2x5 Chaos Space Marines with a plasma gun and the champ has a combi-plasma and chainsword
30 Cultists w/ autoguns

That's going to run you 670 points, leaving 1330 points to fill with goodies.

The Lord Discordant is very strong, but unfortunately lacks the ability to be protected via Look Out, Sir.

A Daemon Prince (always with wings, but the melee weapon of your choice) can be protected, can be a psyker, and while unfortunately quite expensive at the moment, still a solid model. You can give it Warptime for 24" of movement before charging or Diabolic Strength to make it hit harder in melee. Going the latter route and giving it double Malefic Talons and the Intoxicating Elixir relic will give you a 12" flying monster that can dish out 10 attacks on the charge at S10, with an AP of -2 and dealing D2. That means it's a solid melee threat against basically anything, but especially tanks and Primaris. Don't forget that it also has a reroll aura that it benefits from.

For anti-tank, you can choose from a variety of options.

Personally, I like to run two squads of Lascannon Havocs for the reasons I mentioned before. Really, you can run just about anything here as they'll benefit from Abby's aura.

If you find that you're running a fair few units with the daemon keyword, consider a Master of Possession for your 3rd HQ (or swap the Sorc for it), especially if you decide not to use Havocs.

If you want additional protection, consider 1-2 Rhinos. You can deploy your Havocs and/or CSM inside of them at the start of the game, then disembark them within Abby's aura when it's your turn for a bit of added safety.

For more speed, definitely look at Bikes. They're fast and durable. Bolter Discipline/Malicious Volleys makes them always fire double shots at max range, which is delicious.

Terminators make for a very durable unit. You can keep them cheap with chainaxes (possibly sprinkle in a couple power/chain fists) and combi-bolters, or give them all combi-plasmas and unload with VotLW + Cacophany. The downside is getting all of the bits to do that (thank chaos for shapeways).

Rubric Marines are a bit pricy, but they are durable and having AP on bolters is nice. If you cast a defensive power on top of them as well, they become increasingly difficult to shift.

If you want more HQ's (for example, I like to run two Daemon Princes so that I can slingshot them up the board and into melee on the first turn, while also having a Lord, Sorc, and sometimes a 5th HQ), consider running a patrol on top of your battalion (or just running two patrols and no battalion). It'll cost you 2 CP, but that isn't much and if you really want that CP, let Abby be your warlord to make it "free."

Avoid taking any icons (the Khorne one is essential for melee units, but the rest suck).

As an aside, you should definitely consider learning how to magnetize your models. You don't have to do it to all of them, but for example, my CSM squads all have 1 model with an arm and hand that comes off so I can swap out special weapons and each champion is magnetized to allow for different wargear. My terminators are also magnetized so I can swap out what they're equipped with.


This is perfect information! Thanks a ton!
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





I just don't have the number of obliterators to try this list. But I imagine having 9 oblits with Abaddon to give them reroll, the MOP to give them 4++ and reroll 1 to wound wound probably go a long way towards their swingy nature. And you would have to roll really bad for the d3 if all three squads of Oblits ended up with 1 damage weapons.

Maybe they will make Adabbon a supreme commander (I seriously think they should, he has led 13 black crusades!) and then the list will be perfectly legal. If not, you could probably drop a sorceror and the list would still work as a batallion. The sorceror just gives you prescience or warptime or deathhex. Its a great toolbox to have, but losing the sorceror won't change how the list operates. And your DP still has one spell as well.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/18 08:39:29


 
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




United States

this is what i would run having the models you say you have, but also running the 4 HQ.


Battalion:

Abaddon
Master of Possession
sorcerer
-405

(3x) 10 cultist
-180


10 terminators Champ with PF
-284

(2x) 3 oblits
-630


Patrol

Daemon Prince MoK
-160

5 csm Champ with PF
-90

10 Khorne Berzerkers
-170

Rhino
-78

i think this is a good list that balances some range and power and allows the in your face ability that the Black Legion loves and wants. I hate the idea of spending 220 points on Abaddon to have him buff. just keep the sorcerer near the oblits for pres and run Abbadon with the termies and zerkers as a death star. what ever they go for dies and the oblits pick up the straglers as they move on.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Actually, even if you are running the original list with Abaddon and the 9 Oblits, you should march them up the board and not be afraid to fight. Abaddon is an absolute beast in close combat. There are not a lot of stuff that can take a charge from Abaddon and survive. And while Oblits shoot really well, if they get charged, they can hold their own in a fight. Especially with Abaddon to buff their hit rolls. Oblits do d3 damage with their melee fists. Its actually pretty good. So in the original list, if its Abaddon surrounded by 9 Oblits, it is almost the same as Abaddon being surrounded by 10 terminators. In fact, one Oblits are more durable than one terminator, and unless you are running powerfist terminators, the Oblits actually have higher damage (d3).

So, 9 Obliterators around Abaddon makes a rather tough wall, and Abaddon can then heroically intervene anything that charges the Oblits. And like I said, not alot of stuff survives getting charged by Abby.

So, don't think of Abby as just being there to provide that reroll bubble buff. That would be wasting his awesome combat ability. The idea is to march up and dominate the midboard with that deathball of Obliterators and Abby.
   
 
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