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Greetings everyone,

I wanted to open a thread to talk about what specific unit or units you would like to see get some kind of buff for whatever reason. Maybe its a lore thing for you, maybe you think they aren't represented right, maybe a particular unit just doesn't fill its role quite right, ect...

To start off, for me, I wish that Stormcast Prosecutors got a buff. Like, a lot. I think the models are both really cool AND annoyingly expensive, hard to put together (at least the three I got have been an absolute nightmare this time!) and have an end result that is extremely "meh". I'm not looking for them to be top-tier must-includes or anything, but man, I would love to have a real REASON to have spent all my time and frustration getting these three little dudes just right!

Also, as a side note: in Warcry they are absolute beasts. Like, seriously, they are just the best. In AoS they are totally "meh", but for some reason Warcry would have them wreck everyone's faces... go figure right?

Oh, and also: special mention goes out to almost all the nighthaunt hero units. They aren't BAD, and I can easily see how buffing them much might easily make them OP... but come on, right now I end up losing all my coolest ghosts way too easily.

So how about you? What unit or units would YOU like to see get a buff?

As KO player I say Sky Wardens. I say they have been overshadowed by Endrinriggers the whole lifespan of AoS. Endrinriggers are better support (healing ships), better melee and better ranged. Same cost too.

As for BoC there are about 10 units that needs a buff, but not in points. They need a full overhaul.

Really the Brayherd part of BoC is 100% fine and should not change, its the Monsters of Chaos (Including Dragon Ogres) and the Behemoths (including 2 of the Warherds units Ghorgon/Cygor)

What needs to happen is all the "Monsters of Chaos" should get their own traits with the Shaggoth as a hero for them and let Chaos Warhounds be battleline.

Also make Monsters of chaos take extra Behemoths and counts them as more models. Give Warherds this as well.

Monsters of Chaos list,
Shaggoth
Dragon Ogres
Warhounds
Spawn (Spawns should be a part of all 3, Bray. war, monsters)
Jabberslythe
Cockatrice
Chimera
Giant
Razorgors
Battalion just for them


As for Brayherds, Gors needs to wound on 3+ not 4+ so they are actually stronger than Ungors, and give them +1atks always. This makes them 2A, 4+/3+ but Bestigors still hit much better with +1 to hit and +1 atks if they charge and fight larger units, also Bestigors are still -1rend. Makes Gors back to 80pts, Ungors 60, Gors 80, Bestigors 120. Perfect balance.
Centigors are almost perfect they just need a tiny bit of help, an HQ so you can take them as Battalion again
Finally for Brayherd the Chariot, its cheap and crappy, give it more power, something small like on a 2+ for each chariot that charged and within 1" it does D3 MW's (kinda like the Drakespawn chariot)

MegaDombro wrote:
As KO player I say Sky Wardens. I say they have been overshadowed by Endrinriggers the whole lifespan of AoS. Endrinriggers are better support (healing ships), better melee and better ranged. Same cost too.

Second this, always been a bit annoying how theyre better in pretty much all areas. A 3+ to hit on the pikes would go a fair way and maybe a charge bonus or something else. They do already have a lot of special rules though.

Id also want the standard Endrinmaster to heal 3 wounds rather than D3. The dirigible guy getting that but not the foot one feels a bit inconsistent. Maybe you could argue the dirigible suit helps him be more effective.

A lot of units I feel need buffs also seem to me like they have been designed to get written off. Or in other words, they are likely to get cut so GW doesn't want people getting attached. And I think we can all think of units like that, but I also get the sense such options are not really the intended topic of the thread.

Getting to the point, I totally agree with you on prosecutors. Just the models alone justify them being more powerful than they are, because dam are those models a complete pain in the ass.

I also nominate Liberators. They have been seriously left behind by power creep and were always a bit lackluster to begin with. More specifically I feel the regular scrubs need a stat boost on their weapons, but NOT the special weapons. Too much of their damage output is keyed off the special weapons right now. I would even go so far as to say the special weapons should be nerfed (and the ones on Sequitors while they are at it) while the main weapons are buffed. My suggestion would be to combine the hammer and sword profiles (both the regular and special weapons) to make two profiles at 3+/3+, then make the special weapons 1 damage so they do not define the unit's output. As things currently stand a 5-man liberator unit has about half of its damage output coming from one model--the unit leader with a great weapon.

As a half-nomination I want to mention Judicators. A not-insignificant number of people don't even know they have a crossbow option, it is ridiculously inferior to the bow option but costs exactly the same (and has always been that way). Either buff it or split it into a separate point cost.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
A lot of units I feel need buffs also seem to me like they have been designed to get written off. Or in other words, they are likely to get cut so GW doesn't want people getting attached. And I think we can all think of units like that, but I also get the sense such options are not really the intended topic of the thread.

Getting to the point, I totally agree with you on prosecutors. Just the models alone justify them being more powerful than they are, because dam are those models a complete pain in the ass.

I also nominate Liberators. They have been seriously left behind by power creep and were always a bit lackluster to begin with. More specifically I feel the regular scrubs need a stat boost on their weapons, but NOT the special weapons. Too much of their damage output is keyed off the special weapons right now. I would even go so far as to say the special weapons should be nerfed (and the ones on Sequitors while they are at it) while the main weapons are buffed. My suggestion would be to combine the hammer and sword profiles (both the regular and special weapons) to make two profiles at 3+/3+, then make the special weapons 1 damage so they do not define the unit's output. As things currently stand a 5-man liberator unit has about half of its damage output coming from one model--the unit leader with a great weapon.

As a half-nomination I want to mention Judicators. A not-insignificant number of people don't even know they have a crossbow option, it is ridiculously inferior to the bow option but costs exactly the same (and has always been that way). Either buff it or split it into a separate point cost.

100% agreed on Liberators, they're basically outclassed in every way by Sequitors and there's no real incentive to take them with how many other battleline you can grab that actually does something you need in CC. They basically have the issue Chaos Warriors have in StD, despite being the iconic unit of Stormcast, they don't really see much play.

I'd say Orruk Brutes for Warclans need a bit of a buff atm. They got better with the slight points cut and Ardboyz getting more expensive, but I feel there's still too much overlap between them and Ardboyz. Brutes should be the anti-large unit, but they don't do that much on their own without Warchanter buffs. They should either have 2 damage base or have buffed up Gore Hackas and Brute Boss Weapon options to be -2 Rend, so that the damage sticks.

Squig stuff in general need more loving from GG, which is kinda touched upon with the upcoming options in WD, but I feel like the fundamental warscrolls need a lookover considering they're outdone in too many ways with the much more cost efficient regular grots for Moonclan. The only major Moonclan unit that needs some kind of change are the shootas variant, since they're literally redundant when their shooting is so limited. I feel like they should synergize with stabbas in some way, like getting +1 to wound against enemy units that are in combat with a stabba unit but every 1 they roll hits the stabba unit instead if they choose to use this option.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
A lot of units I feel need buffs also seem to me like they have been designed to get written off. Or in other words, they are likely to get cut so GW doesn't want people getting attached. And I think we can all think of units like that, but I also get the sense such options are not really the intended topic of the thread.

This is what it feels like.

Given examples for BoC, Honestly the Tuskgor Chariot is an ancient terrible finecast model that should be removed, and BoC has such a diverse army removing it along with Razorgors would be that bad, yes some people would get mad but really they are 20+ yrs old finecast models that the army doesn't need and are only slightly iconic now (they also are smaller than their equals, the Bestigor on the Chariot is the size of new plastic Ungors and the Ungor is even smaller than that) they also look derpy.

But Centigors and Jabberslythe needs to stay. Centigors are almost perfect but the Japperslythe is IMO the worst warscroll in the game (thats in a battletome).

Idoneth Reavers.
They need something to bolster their ranged fire or something. They're supposed to be 'seeing' via vibrations in the Aethersea and the like. Aimed Fire(18" hits on 4s, wounds on 4s, no rend and 1 damage) and Storm Fire(9" hits on 4s, wounds on 4s, no rend and 1 damage) just don't feel worthwhile.

If we don't want to add any Rend, bonus damage, or anything to make them killier...then we need to add some utility.

I'm thinking an 'elemental' or 'poisoned' arrow rule of some kind. Dritchleech, Bio-Shock Shell, and Terrornight Venom feel like they might be a good option for some rules to carry over for the Reavers.

To me its either - remove the model then if you don't want to support it - or put the effort to make everything viable in the game. There shouldn't be dead weight never-take units sitting out there for any great length of time, and those should be mistakes that get fixed as soon as they can.

For me it would be chaos warriors and chaos knights and the whole mortal chaos line needs to be brought up to be viable other than just spam a ton of marauders. Chaos is supposed to be the big bad. Those warriors should be something people fear, not laugh at or find to be a minor nuisance.

OP

I’d like them to boost the Melusai and Kinari units for Daughters of Khaine. These units are underwhelming and outshone by stock Daughters despite ostensibly being the elite of the army.

I’d also say the same of Tree Revanants vis a vis Dryads.

Tree Revenants need to be elite infantry that can hold their own in melee. Not just for the unit, but for the whole Sylvaneth faction. Dryads are decent as basic scrubs but suck outside of wyldwood range and at the end of the day are just that; basic scrubs. IMO give Tree-Revs 2W (give Spite-Revs 2W as well for that matter), 4+ save, move the current waypipe deep strike to a battalion (the unit has to pay points for this, which immediately sinks anything above min size not to mention makes them low-efficiency for combat), and make their martial memories a generic re-roll ability so its efficiency is not based off unit size (a 5-man unit gets one reroll per 5, a 20-man unit gets 0.25 rerolls per 5); simply re-rolling hits of 1 all the time is not ridiculous. Oh and make them hit on a 3+ base, they are aelfish enough!


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 Kanluwen wrote:
Idoneth Reavers.
They need something to bolster their ranged fire or something. They're supposed to be 'seeing' via vibrations in the Aethersea and the like. Aimed Fire(18" hits on 4s, wounds on 4s, no rend and 1 damage) and Storm Fire(9" hits on 4s, wounds on 4s, no rend and 1 damage) just don't feel worthwhile.

If we don't want to add any Rend, bonus damage, or anything to make them killier...then we need to add some utility.

I'm thinking an 'elemental' or 'poisoned' arrow rule of some kind. Dritchleech, Bio-Shock Shell, and Terrornight Venom feel like they might be a good option for some rules to carry over for the Reavers.

I think you are right. Personally I think rend -1 on aimed shots would be a good way of increasing the unit's utility without raising the output of its highest-damage option.


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 Grimskul wrote:
They basically have the issue Chaos Warriors have in StD, despite being the iconic unit of Stormcast, they don't really see much play.

Actually I think that if anything Chaos Warriors are a model of what Liberators should be. They are not a bad unit; unlike Liberators they have a built-in means of getting full save re-rolls (HUGE on 4+ armor) and pair that with a 5+ to negate mortal wounds, making them tough customers with no Achilles heel to get around their durability. The reason they don't see much play is more on-par with Liberators though; they are totally outperformed by other units in the faction*.

*The current Marauders warscroll is awfully done and looks like something taken as a rough draft the writer hadn't even finished.

Funny thing about liberators is that they are the most often used battleline units for many competitive stormcast lists.
It is not because they have great rules. It is simply because liberators are the cheapest battleline option for stormcast.
The cheapest battleline option that can also be used to screen more valuable non-battleline stormcast units.
In this sense, Judicators are beyond consideration.
Sequitors, while better in melee combat than liberators, need expensive caster as a general to become battleline.
And sequitors melt like butter against even mediocre melee units, just like liberators do. And sequitors are more expensive than liberators.

In the end, liberators are basically glorified meat shields for evocators, dracothian guards, vanguard-raptors and celestar ballistas.
Even then never expect them to hold for a single phase of combat against even remotely capable close combat units.
I am not referring to hearthguard berzerkers, keeper of secrets or morsarr guard.
Even black orruks, regular ogors, squig riders can cut through liberators as if they were made of cardboard boxes.

So sad to see the backbone of the god king's army hit like wet noodles against even skaven clanrats, and melt against anything with decent number of attacks and/or rend -1.

Off the top of my head, I would like to see Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights buffed. Doesn't even have to be a lot either. Give Chaos Knights the ability to the Lance attack on the charge but go to the Ensorcelled Weapons any other time. Then maybe up Chaos Warriors Rend on their weapons. Possibly give both units one more attack. Just something to give these units some teeth.

I feel that knight lances and the great weapons for warriors need a buff, but I would not say the basic units need it outside those loadouts. Keep in mind it is EXTREMELY easy for them to get full rerolls to hit and wound, improving those characteristics would end badly. More attacks would be a huge increase as well. Though come to think of it more rend would probably be a good thing, so I agree with you somewhat.


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Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Funny thing about liberators is that they are the most often used battleline units for many competitive stormcast lists.
It is not because they have great rules. It is simply because liberators are the cheapest battleline option for stormcast.
The cheapest battleline option that can also be used to screen more valuable non-battleline stormcast units.
In this sense, Judicators are beyond consideration.
Sequitors, while better in melee combat than liberators, need expensive caster as a general to become battleline.
And sequitors melt like butter against even mediocre melee units, just like liberators do. And sequitors are more expensive than liberators.

In the end, liberators are basically glorified meat shields for evocators, dracothian guards, vanguard-raptors and celestar ballistas.
Even then never expect them to hold for a single phase of combat against even remotely capable close combat units.
I am not referring to hearthguard berzerkers, keeper of secrets or morsarr guard.
Even black orruks, regular ogors, squig riders can cut through liberators as if they were made of cardboard boxes.

So sad to see the backbone of the god king's army hit like wet noodles against even skaven clanrats, and melt against anything with decent number of attacks and/or rend -1.

I think you raise a lot of good points with the liberators but have missed the mark on sequitors. Because they can get full save rerolls every combat phase they become extremely durable against non-rending foes while they can switch to full hit rerolls if they need to deal damage (which they can definitely do thanks to their special weapon loadout). Being battleline does require a lord arcanum general but the one on foot is not bad nor high in point cost.

The real reason they do not get used much at tournaments is the predominance of mortal wounds. MW has always been a staple of tourney AoS, and 10 of them will wipe a unit of sequitors as easy as liberators. This leads off into the topic of how balancing based off tournament play has its drawbacks, and as someone who has seen how hugely OP sequitors are in a casual setting (on the dealing end, before someone makes that argument) I would say there is a definitive case of that.


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Apologies for spamming this thread with conversation everyone, tbh trying to find distraction from real life right now.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Keep in mind it is EXTREMELY easy for them to get full rerolls to hit and wound, improving those characteristics would end badly. More attacks would be a huge increase as well.

Well extremely easy like half of the time as long as there is an enemy Wizard in dispel range. Daemonic Power is pretty good, but it would still have Chaos Warriors starting to get on the level of Mortek Guard I believe.

Warshrine does it on a 3+ and it is a prayer so can't be dispelled. And can be done multiple times via multiple warshrines, in addition to said daemonic power, should one be inclined.

Chaos Warriors have double the wounds of Mortek Guard so I think in a 1v1 they'd do alright!

Throwing another thing out there:

Aspect of the Storm. "Crashing Upon the Foe" needs to be a chain-lightning deal.

It's the Aspect of the Storm. Every time I see that thing, I think of Thor: Ragnarok and the 'lightning landing' on the Rainbow Bridge.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Warshrine does it on a 3+ and it is a prayer so can't be dispelled. And can be done multiple times via multiple warshrines, in addition to said daemonic power, should one be inclined.

Chaos Warriors have double the wounds of Mortek Guard so I think in a 1v1 they'd do alright!

Chaos Warriors were 100pts (now 90pts) for 5 (10 wounds). Mortek Guard are 130pts for 10 (10 wounds). Both units have 2 attacks per model with Mortek Guard +4 to wound vs. +3 for Warriors and Rend 1 vs. Rend 0. Warriors are one 32mm bases, Mortek Guard on are on 25mm. So Mortek Guard are roughly generating about double the number of Wounds than Chaos Warriors for about 30% more points. They most certainly don't do that well in a 1v1 fight. They don't do all that well in Chaos Warriors + Sorcerer/Foot Chaos Lord vs. unsupported Mortek Guard.

Time and time again, I haven't come up with a solution for my S2D army to deal with OBR. They generally do everything my army does but better (primarily Attrition). Partly, because I have things that aren't that useful against them (Runic armor/shields or Battleshock effects) but in large part their units are stronger and not that much slower.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think you raise a lot of good points with the liberators but have missed the mark on sequitors. Because they can get full save rerolls every combat phase they become extremely durable against non-rending foes while they can switch to full hit rerolls if they need to deal damage (which they can definitely do thanks to their special weapon loadout). Being battleline does require a lord arcanum general but the one on foot is not bad nor high in point cost.

The real reason they do not get used much at tournaments is the predominance of mortal wounds. MW has always been a staple of tourney AoS, and 10 of them will wipe a unit of sequitors as easy as liberators. This leads off into the topic of how balancing based off tournament play has its drawbacks, and as someone who has seen how hugely OP sequitors are in a casual setting (on the dealing end, before someone makes that argument) I would say there is a definitive case of that.

Sequitors are one of the few units who can re-roll "failed" save rolls, as opposed to many units with latest warscrolls allowing them to re-roll any save rolls.
This means sequitors are surprisingly vulnerable to attacks with any kind of rend, even when sequitors activate their soulshields ability.
And most of the times, the units that come to your sequitors are those with good rend or mortal wounds.
Hence my opinions that sequitors' defence is not noticeably superior to that of liberators, even against attacks that do not inflict mortal wounds.

However, your remark that abundance of mortal wounds makes sequitors less attractive is spot on.

On a sidenote, mandatory lord-arcanum for battleline sequitors is not as attractive as some people think.
In a world where Lumineth realm-lords, seraphon, any death faction with arkhan or any other mortarchs reign supreme in magic phase, you never want to over-invest in magic.
And unfortunately, stormcasts are one of the worst spell-casting factions in AoS. Spells are mediocre at best, modifiers to casting rolls are exceedingly rare, and wizards are expensive. As of now, the only stormcast wizard I take is knight-incantor. Not because of her spell-casting abilities, but because of her once-per-battle auto-unbind item.

If you take lord-arcanum to take large number of sequitors as battleline, you are not just sacrificing points you could have spent on evocators, ballistas or vanguard-raptors.
You are also wasting the points you could have spent on useful heroes such as lord-castellant, knight-incantor, or knight-heraldor.

Using their wizards as other factions do will always make them seem poor--they are durable as hell and quite readily beat things up in melee. They are hybrid heroes which will naturally perform poorly if not used as such. Arcanum specifically gets to negate a killing wound every turn, is an excellent nuker thanks to increased arcane bolt damage, and the one on foot has a solid support spell with a relatively low casting cost. The one on Dracoline has a decent warscroll spell, a decent command ability, and has access to a very powerful mount trait. I have seen them used at tournaments multiple times by players who did reasonably well, so they really can't be that bad.

Re-roll failed saves for Sequitors is 1s, 2s, and 3s. On top of rerolling 1s all the time from their shields like Liberators do. Objectively their defense is far superior, on a basic mathematical level. But yeah, MW output at tournaments.


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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Warshrine does it on a 3+ and it is a prayer so can't be dispelled. And can be done multiple times via multiple warshrines, in addition to said daemonic power, should one be inclined.

Chaos Warriors have double the wounds of Mortek Guard so I think in a 1v1 they'd do alright!

Chaos Warriors were 100pts (now 90pts) for 5 (10 wounds). Mortek Guard are 130pts for 10 (10 wounds). Both units have 2 attacks per model with Mortek Guard +4 to wound vs. +3 for Warriors and Rend 1 vs. Rend 0. Warriors are one 32mm bases, Mortek Guard on are on 25mm. So Mortek Guard are roughly generating about double the number of Wounds than Chaos Warriors for about 30% more points. They most certainly don't do that well in a 1v1 fight. They don't do all that well in Chaos Warriors + Sorcerer/Foot Chaos Lord vs. unsupported Mortek Guard.

Time and time again, I haven't come up with a solution for my S2D army to deal with OBR. They generally do everything my army does but better (primarily Attrition). Partly, because I have things that aren't that useful against them (Runic armor/shields or Battleshock effects) but in large part their units are stronger and not that much slower.

Comparing a mid-tier faction to a top-tier faction will generally make the mid-tier one look bad. As for the Mortek Guard comparison I apologize; I misunderstood and thought you meant something different (literally one Warrior model vs one Guard model). Comparing the two units, Mortek Guard will definitely come out on top and not by a small margin as you say.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
A lot of units I feel need buffs also seem to me like they have been designed to get written off. Or in other words, they are likely to get cut so GW doesn't want people getting attached. And I think we can all think of units like that, but I also get the sense such options are not really the intended topic of the thread.

This is what it feels like.

Given examples for BoC, Honestly the Tuskgor Chariot is an ancient terrible finecast model that should be removed, and BoC has such a diverse army removing it along with Razorgors would be that bad, yes some people would get mad but really they are 20+ yrs old finecast models that the army doesn't need and are only slightly iconic now (they also are smaller than their equals, the Bestigor on the Chariot is the size of new plastic Ungors and the Ungor is even smaller than that) they also look derpy.

This is supposed to be a thread about wich units you'd like to see buffed, not removed.
So why don't we hope for a new, better statted , all plastic chariot - vs F* up each others armies just because you don't like the model?
You don't like the model (or it's stats)? Simple solution: Don't buy/use it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Using their wizards as other factions do will always make them seem poor--they are durable as hell and quite readily beat things up in melee. They are hybrid heroes which will naturally perform poorly if not used as such. Arcanum specifically gets to negate a killing wound every turn, is an excellent nuker thanks to increased arcane bolt damage, and the one on foot has a solid support spell with a relatively low casting cost. The one on Dracoline has a decent warscroll spell, a decent command ability, and has access to a very powerful mount trait. I have seen them used at tournaments multiple times by players who did reasonably well, so they really can't be that bad.

Re-roll failed saves for Sequitors is 1s, 2s, and 3s. On top of rerolling 1s all the time from their shields like Liberators do. Objectively their defense is far superior, on a basic mathematical level. But yeah, MW output at tournaments.

You have emphasised the prevalence of mortal wounds in tournaments settings, which seems to be the standard both of us are constructing arguments upon.
The "durable as hell" lord-arcanum and many other stormcast heroes have "only" 3+ normal saves. I find this expression of yours contradictory.
One or two mortek crawlers, or lumineth archers hiding behind terrain will easily dispatch him as easily as they remove heroes of other battletome with worse save.
3+ save on 5~6 wound hero is nothing to be overestimated.

And instead of describing lord-arcanums as hybrids, I prefer calling them "master of none, and not even necessarily the jack of all trades while being expensive".
Even if the version on foot has comparatively useful spell, severe lack of casting bonuses and abundance of armies with superior magic means those spells rarely come into play.

And I honestly do not find anything attractive about unique spell which lord arcanum on dracoline can use. Draw a line between the model and a spot 12" from him, roll a dice for every model the line passes through, and then......deal a mortal wound for 5+. I am not really impressed.

D3 damage for their staff is not bad, but any dedicated combat unit will make short work of them if you try to use them as "hybrid" melee caster.
Cycle of Life, the ability to negate a wound, is surprisingly difficult use as it does not negate excess wound. You need to have your enemy deal the exact number of wounds/mortal wounds equal to the total number of wounds your unit has. One more excessive wound and there goes your opportunity to revive one model.

I can however agree that lord-arcanum on dracoline has good uses, especially in list with large unit of dracoline evocators.
But even then I would spend points on ballistas and other non-battleline choices rather than sequitors.
Their defensive capabilities of course is mathematically superior to liberators like you mentioned.
But they also cost 30 more points after 2020 GHB. And again, because of mortal wound being everywhere I would rather take cheaper meat shields for my SCE list.

Come to think of it, now I do remember where a list with lord-arcanum and battleline sequitors performed superbly in tournaments.
The list had lord-arcanum on foot, battleline sequitors and dracoline evocators supported by ballistas, and was run by Nathan Princi.
He took fifth place with that list during......2019 Cancon.

That's right. January 2019.
Before the inexplicable points nerf on SCE on 2019 Handbook, long before the advent of ossiarchs, seraphon, new Tzeentch, or even skaven, FEC, HoS.
Nowadays I cannot recall any SCE list with lord-arcanum and sequitors that is capable of showing similar performance.

There is a reason why many players who try to play competitively with SCE rely heavily on Kroak as their "crutch".
While the mummified toad brings all the command points to home, drop comets everywhere and unbind spells with no range limit, the storm bois are relegated to cheerleading elements.


P.S.
To make sure my post do not turn into tirade that attempt to address all the issues, I will make these points clear.

1) I agree that sequitors are statistically more durable than liberators. I also agree that abundance of mortal wounds in competitive game makes them less attractive than liberators.

2) However I am not too impressed on performance of Lord-arcanums in competitive games post 2020 GHB(July 2020). Their spells and casting abilities are mediocre at best. And they pay bit too much points for their melee weapon and 3+ save. These traits more often than not fail to prove their values in many competitive games, where mortal wounds are plentiful and character sniping is easily done by many factions with respectable shooting.

3) Liberator is only the tip of the iceberg that is vast majority of warscrolls in Stormcast Eternals battletome. Paladins, prosecutors, tempestors, gryph hounds, judicators, lord-veritants, lord-exorcists, knight-venators, etc. The list of units in need of overhaul is endless.

You are right; this is getting long and many of the units in question got points reductions last month anyways. I'd say GW agreed with your assessment more than mine.

Let us put that aside and agree that the Lord-Exorcist sucks and desperately needs a buff. Poor sod is down to 90 points.

ccs wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
A lot of units I feel need buffs also seem to me like they have been designed to get written off. Or in other words, they are likely to get cut so GW doesn't want people getting attached. And I think we can all think of units like that, but I also get the sense such options are not really the intended topic of the thread.

This is what it feels like.

Given examples for BoC, Honestly the Tuskgor Chariot is an ancient terrible finecast model that should be removed, and BoC has such a diverse army removing it along with Razorgors would be that bad, yes some people would get mad but really they are 20+ yrs old finecast models that the army doesn't need and are only slightly iconic now (they also are smaller than their equals, the Bestigor on the Chariot is the size of new plastic Ungors and the Ungor is even smaller than that) they also look derpy.

This is supposed to be a thread about wich units you'd like to see buffed, not removed.
So why don't we hope for a new, better statted , all plastic chariot - vs F* up each others armies just because you don't like the model?
You don't like the model (or it's stats)? Simple solution: Don't buy/use it.

So? GW won't keep all the units, many will be removed. You can't just wish this won't happen and discussion wish units you feel are ok to be remove can help in that discusion on "Is this unit even worth updating?

I also never said "I dont like XYZ unit so just remove them" I was saying "XYZ unit is 20+ yrs old, in full finecast, isn't the correct size, so it most likely will be removed" wish goes back to what i just said, is GW even looking at updating them? Should be really focus on them? Given that i said they would be ok to be removed i still gave something to fix them. I said Monsters needs a buff in BoC, but also said Razorgors might be removed, Razgors are monsters.

MegaDombro wrote:
As KO player I say Sky Wardens. I say they have been overshadowed by Endrinriggers the whole lifespan of AoS. Endrinriggers are better support (healing ships), better melee and better ranged. Same cost too.

*Looks at the collection of 30 riggers they have*

I mean you're not wrong, but I might one person riot outside nottingham if they reversed this

The entire Nighthaunt tome please.

 Sasori wrote:
The entire Nighthaunt tome please.

Yeah other than when they get a good roll on a charge ive never really had trouble with them, and I'm not playing a meta list I use cities tempest keep to run an all dwarf force.

I know they had some changes in white dwarf but it really didn't hurt them much.

It's a shame because it's a cool looking army with good lore, just needs some tweeks.

There is a basic issue when it comes to balancing Nighthaunt; every unit has ethereal and fly. Each unit needs to have these abilities factored into their point cost to avoid being overpowered (doubly so because most are also in LoN). But when the whole army has it there is a diminishing return. Having a few units in your army with ethereal is extremely useful as you can send them against high-rend enemies and let other parts of your army handle enemies with high MW output. Having the whole army be that way is nice, but many units will end up fighting the low-rend parts of the opposing force or parts which have high MW output to bypass armor, where you would rather the unit not have ethereal in order to cost fewer points. Fly is the same; there are only so many places on the battlefield where deployment of fliers will be useful and the battle cannot be fought entirely within them, so some units will again be paying points for an ability they are getting little use from.

If it was something of small value like battleshock immunity, the situation would not be the same since the point difference to account for it is minor. But fly and ethereal are powerful abilities that accordingly have a notable impact on points cost. Yet with diminishing returns that means a whole army of nighthaunt spends a good chunk of points on abilities they don't get much use from.

The solution here is that the allegiance abilities must be strong to compensate; it is only using a Nighthaunt army that this is an issue, so it is only Nighthaunt armies that need a dramatic buff. Yet Nighthaunt allegiance abilities are not strong, they are weak (I would say mainly from power creep of other factions). More on the level GHB allegiances were than other battletomes.

GW did stealth-address this via the Legion of Grief allegiance rules in Forbidden Power, which allow Nighthaunt to be run with what is in effect LoN allegiance abilities, but that robs the army of identity and it just feels bad to have one's faction's supposed current battletome be reduced to a paperweight.




That said Glavewraiths still suck pretty hard.

I have often wondered if there wasn't some easy way they can improve the haunts enough so that they are good, but not outrageous.

Auto raise-the-dead every turn? Too powerful.

Auto wound on 6's to hit? (like a lot of the army has already) Probably not powerful enough.

More wounds? Too powerful on some, not powerful enough on others.

Honestly, they are a bit of a pain to balance at this point.

I think their hammers just need to hammer harder or more reliably not necessarily harder.