Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I suppose what would it take for you to spend as much time on another game (I’m sure some already do) but also pay as much for the gear and maybe even drop 40k for another companies game. And for enough people to do it to rival GWs size.

I could see a world I inch Vallejo would attract a lot of attention using its big brand within mini gaming already to launch a serious competitor.

The way people complain about 40k it feels like it wouldn’t take much to make a better game in many people’s opinion

it feels like it wouldn’t take much to make a better game in many people’s opinion

The problem there is that everyone would have a different opinion on how to make a better version. What one thinks is better will go against the grain for another.

Other dedicated players.

Approximately 10x the cash value of GW and a very smart and innovative group of leadership, marketeers, and game designers.

You don't topple an industry giant with a product that is only marginally better (even though that's so nebulously defined as to be nonsense),

mrFickle wrote:
I suppose what would it take for you to spend as much time on another game (I’m sure some already do) but also pay as much for the gear and maybe even drop 40k for another companies game. And for enough people to do it to rival GWs size.

I could see a world I inch Vallejo would attract a lot of attention using its big brand within mini gaming already to launch a serious competitor.

The way people complain about 40k it feels like it wouldn’t take much to make a better game in many people’s opinion

Right. That is exactly the problem. Many people's opinions. Don't make the mistake of assuming the gripes about 40k are on the same page or about the same things.

Vallejo... I'm honestly puzzled by that idea. They're a paint company with a few tools and things. While they're somewhat well known, it isn't universal and its for a very specific niche of the hobby (and art supplies). Among 40k specific customers (the theoretical target market: small boys named Kevin who only know 40k, spend about 200 pounds out of Mum's purse and move on with their lives), I suspect they wouldn't even qualify as well known.
The transition/expansion cost to games and miniatures would be a HUGE hurdle for them. And given how poorly even other game companies do with miniature games (there's a long list of failures, abandon games and also rans, including some rather big companies), I can't see it as worth it.

The problems with this are manifold. In order to even come close to stealing a fair amount of players/revenue they'd need to:

1) Develop a robust IP that has enuff variety in styles/tropes as to appeal to the widest possible audience.
2) Develop innovative miniatures alongside the IP so one doesnt necessarily independently of the other.
3) Develop a game(or series of) that offers depth of player involvement while also able to be picked up quickly by new players(to wargaming).


Over the years GW has done all 3 of these, unfortunately they have only been able to 2/3 at any given time as of late.

For a newcomer to the party, the mountain is high and the climb incredibly perilous. Not an insurmountable task, but daunting nonetheless.

Just look at Star Wars Legion, they have yet to reach GW levels of minis but have a great IP and an ok game. So if they're able to hit all three and really push for it, they might "threaten" GW & their position in the market.

But the magic 8ball says chances unlikely.

For as much of a Star Wars fan I am, feth the jedi/sith/whatever they've done to it. I much prefer the fethed up'dness of 40k where even the "good" guys are the bad guys in every other scifi universe....and the bad guys are even worse!

FOR IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE.....

THERE IS ONLY WAR!!!!!!!

Privateer Press was a contender in the not too distant past. Then GW pulled it's finger out, released 8th while at the same time PP's steps into doing things the GW way (dedicated faction books) and the release of Mk3 went down.. not so well (amongst other things).

Toppling GW, when it's at a height it's not really every been at before and is just getting stronger and stronger? Doubt there's a company in the niche market that can threaten that. FFG might be able to with Star Wars... but only because of the Star Wars brand. They have a long way to go before they're doing multiple monthly simultaneous weekend releases around the world - something GW generally does now with ease from experience.

Ultimately, without having to rely on GW breaking itself at least in part, you'd need some sort of genuine clear qualitatively superior product, and I'm not really sure that's possible, not because GW is perfect, but because GW's stuff is "good enough" that I don't think there's enough room in the fundamental product concept (tabletop miniatures gaming) to do so currently. GW's dominance is through size and inertia, relying on the breadth of its IP. Gameplay doesn't really drive its success (and is why the rules always are so afterthought-ey), GW is essentially an IP company like Disney except that it produces most of its own physical retail product. Either GW will have to do something to break its hold, fundamental consumer tastes will have to change, or something else of that nature. 3D printing may result in problems to GW's production of models as a primary revenue source, but not the dominance of its IP.

If miniatures gaming tastes change back to historical wargaming or "hard" scifi or something like that, and fantasy/space fantasy becomes passe, then perhaps, but it would have to be something like that.

FFG got close, with Xwing for a bit, but that was in large part due to mishandlings on GW's part and a confluence of new Star Wars movies, and didn't last.

The only thing that comes to my mind is: More time, money and effort than it would worth doing.

I mean maybe someone like Hasbro could sink a lot resources into making a high quality at all parts miniatures wargame potentially taking losses/low profits for years. It would probably have to have at least as high quality of miniatures as Citadel, demonstrate that it will absolutely stick around for at least a decade, remain well supported all that time, be very accessible to entry yet have something for long time fans to keep coming back, something familiar yet new with lore that can be skimmed and delved deeply into and probably not as high in importance as many on DakkaDakka would like, but decently balenced yet with enough in-built luck that novices always have a chance to win.

Everything there sounds like way too much effort for meager profits when many more projects would both return a bigger and faster investment.

1) Create an engaging fluff rivalling 40K - very hard because it being basically fantasy races in space is both unique and rich, and easily identifiable.
2) Have a ruleset that promotes strategy instead of arcady, in-your-face, pay-to-win tactics/units - basically avoid Warmachine-like design and focus on a bolt-action type design
3) Open gameshops everywhere to create visibility and promote games, or create a very effective network with existing local shops in order to heavily market the game and keep it alive. Without support, it won't work. Also, a good idea would be for commercial people to subsides the renting of places for local tournaments to happen.
4) A price roughly 30 to 40% lower per equal amount of plastic compared to GW
5) Have very distinctive armies, but not too many (5-7). and not countless derivative humans like Warmachines or Infinity, but very different looks for each armies.

For good humans, I'd avoid the space marines trope and focus on a more Astra-ish look with more advanced tech
For bad humans, i'd go with a mix of ad-mech/chaos marines (basically, borgs) look
For bad aliens, i think a drukhari-style chaotic-charismatic race would be perfect
For good aliens, a Tau-like focusing on greater good, but not too much mecha please

Then we would need 2 "monsters" races. Aliens/insect are overdone, so i'd prefer to see :
- some sort of orcs/Ogres in space with domesticated monsters helping them for a brutal aesthetic
- some sort of Cthulu like horrors (think Mutalith vortex beast), with a Demonic feel

The main problem is, most of us would probably play with 40K miniatures to try this "new" game, which would impact sales.

For me, there is nothing another tabletop company could do to rival GW.....unless perhaps if they acquired the IP.

I read 30K/40K books, I watch YouTube channels dedicated to 40K, and buy/paint/play with 40K mimiatures. If 40K somehow went away, I would not be seeking to replace it with other games because I am not invested in their lore, and don't have the time or inclination to become so. For me, playing the wargame is just a byproduct of my interest in the setting.

It depends largely on what you mean by a "better" game. GW has three major advantages over their immediate competitors:
-Ease of access. Warhammer is everywhere, lots of people play, and it has a very shallow learning curve.
-Exposure. Warhammer has an extensive universe, decades of novels, spinoff games, video games, etc., etc. Even if lots of them are crap they're way more in the public eye than anyone else.
-Miniatures. Injection-moulded plastics are horribly expensive and require a huge playerbase to support; PP got to the point where they could do a few, but then the playerbase crashed. Infinity can compete with GW on individual sculpt quality but they're still making single-pose metal minis. Mantic has the breadth of kits but they're still in historical-wargames "make a four-pose sprue and get people to buy twenty or thirty of them" mode.

If someone wants to seriously compete with GW they need to be able to touch all three of those. The companies best positioned to do so right now are probably Mantic (who are short on exposure) and FFG (who have massive supply-chain issues still to iron out, and who don't do the learning curve very well).

I got into warhammer because I was buying magic cards while a teen; so I could see MtG made into a TT game with its miniatures and cards to do battle sort of like warmachine.

The IP is there, fandom is there, they just need to make the miniatures and the game.

AnomanderRake has hit the nail on the head, it's all about publicity and availability. We've already seen other companies with games that have better rules, and... well, let's say minis that are on par with GW, since I'm not sure anyone can boast they have better minis over as wide a range as GW have (one or two models here and there? Sure).

The key thing that the competitors are missing is that sudden wave of popularity that will propel them into the really big leagues, after which point the brand will be somewhat self-sustaining as long as the company keeps making new product. This means reaching a customer base outside of the existing wargaming crowd. GW have been doing that lately with video games and (here in the UK at least) word of mouth from younger players, but in the past it's also included getting the games into big stores - for example, 2nd ed 40k and 1st ed Necromunda used to be sold in Argos, in fact that's how I got into the hobby thanks to my parents getting us 40k as a Christmas present as kids. Without that it would have been years before I heard about it from others at school... if those kids at school had ever heard about it either, in fact, for all I know they got into it from Argos too.

Beyond that I'll also say that the setting needs to be compelling. There's a good reason why the Star Wars, DC and Marvel tabletop skirmish games have become as popular as they have - they're settings we're familiar with, and know we enjoy. That means it's more likely we'll be comfortable buying the product as it's more likely we'll like it.

All of these reasons also add up to making it more likely you'll find someone to play against. The hardest part about trying out a brand new game, is getting someone to try it out with you, especially if they have to pay to do so.

Racerguy180 wrote:
The problems with this are manifold. In order to even come close to stealing a fair amount of players/revenue they'd need to:

1) Develop a robust IP that has enuff variety in styles/tropes as to appeal to the widest possible audience.
2) Develop innovative miniatures alongside the IP so one doesnt necessarily independently of the other.
3) Develop a game(or series of) that offers depth of player involvement while also able to be picked up quickly by new players(to wargaming).

#1 especially. Black Library and Relic were/are the best things GW had going for it. It could have been better, they should have ridden harder on continuity and scope, but nobody else has that level of immersion.

I’d add they should stay away from the same niche other competitors may be trying to carve out for themselves i.e. Warmahordes. If they’re going closer to kill team, I’d go closer to Apocalypse. Two startups fighting each other for the same scrap isn’t going to dent GW.

Finally I might try inverting GW’s path. Create an RTS first that isn’t going to be my tabletop but is in that world to develop the IP and generate name recognition, then dev the tabletop.

On paper you just have to create a game which is more fun to play. Preferably with models that are not ugly as sin.

Really I think the problem is companies run into the same problems as GW.

Warmahordes and X-Wing were competing with 40k (and had killed off Fantasy) circa 2012-2016. I feel unfortunately both ending up doing things which are a source of hostility to 40k. I.E. People got the models and rules and the game worked. Great. Problem is as a studio you need to sell your existing customers new stuff. Which means an endless expansion of models and rules, which inevitably brings codex creep, unit purpose duplication and general clutter.

So when GW go "here's a genuinely new edition, we're going to cut down the rules, and you won't need to carry 15 books to play the game, honest, *wink*" people unsurprisingly moved back in droves and in turn brought lots of new people into the hobby.

At its core the major advantage GW have is that people play their games. Obviously they have stores themselves - but there is also a usually vibrant tournament and club scene covering a large part of the world. I think one of the things Privateer Press did well was a system of trying to encourage people to set up those sorts of things - but again, it felt on the up circa 2012-14, and pretty toast now.

A better game that you could basically use the same minis for, but said game needs to exist and get steam for several years.

For GW to feth-up. GW is so far ahead in having manifested a supportive community that merely being better than GW is not good enough. GW has made an extreme amount of progress in the past 5 years and if they continue making progress then nobody is going to catch up to them.

A portion of players will always complain, in a big community that means that there will always be a vocal group that doesn't agree with whatever the company is currently doing. CA20 could be fixed in two weeks, add a couple of nerfs to Salamanders and IH Stratagems to appease the masses and most people will be ecstatic with 9th edition.

I think video games are the future, it's IMO just a question of replacing people's need to collect, build and paint and then the feeling of playing with real people and not just disjointed voices. That last one should be relatively easy, it's not like you want to feel their breath down your neck, 360 degree camera coverage of the users head and a 3d tv and you are basically there. I never really liked building and painting, but I like choosing which buildings to build in Total War, if CA gave us an easy-to-use paint scheme change then another part of the hobby would be covered.

A company with 20 years of compelling expanding IP that allows for a variety of models and play-styles for a fun game with excellent models combined with a marketing model that gets them to the masses. Nothing less is going rival GW.

Basically, to beat GW you need to follow their playbook and put in the time. You can't license your way to this. Licensing deals are inherently transitory and place limitations on a companies products. Whether you are FFG with Star Wars or CMON with ASOIF, they are a licensing renewal failure away from losing any momentum they make in rivaling GW.

And that is the problem. Who else in the miniature war-games business owns their own compelling and wide reaching IP that comes close to Warhammer 40K? I think we can safely say, nobody.

Interesting. Lots of folks talking Star Wars and MTG.

Interesting thing about both of those is that the IP comes from without- it is not created by the game company itself.

This is why I never considered Lord of the Rings to be a true GW game, even though GW made the models and rules. It always feels like an invader in a WD.

So for me, the compelling IP is king. I liked Mutant Chronicles, for example- there were enough factions, the right mix of human history and culture with space plus the supernatural. Only problem is that the miniatures were weak by comparison. Mutant Chronicles also benefited from cross platform support; it was released alongside an RPG and a Card Game.

Factions- I'm going to need at least five distinct factions, and even that is a little slim. Going to need 10 kits in each faction's range, and 2-3 of those should be dual build. Ground and air vehicles, as well as walkers- not necessarily super-heavies, but all other categories.

Then I need an integrated campaign system with character and unit progression. Then I need a game below it for small scale battle with the same IP and a game above it. I'd also like occasional one-off games that tie in and enrich the IP.

Then I need a set of novels to go along with it.

I never played Warmachine- I liked some of the models, and it might have had enough to offer, or could have grown into something. It felt like it needed more diversity amongst its factions.

I think one key aspect that GW has the edge on is the highstreet stores. Whilst almost every other retailer is fleeing the highstreet, GW is holding out (and as yet hasn't had to pair with food outlets at a national level to survive).

This gives them immense power in terms of market reach and marketing. To the point where they aren't just the market leader, they are currently the primary (by far) gateway game for the whole fantasy/sci-fi market in general.

They don't just lead the market, they make the market.




That's what you have to break in order to take a lions share of the wargamer market. At least if you want to stand shoulder to shoulder with GW. PP and almost all the other contenders have the big issue in that most of their customers are or were GW customers. So long as GW is the one on the highstreet with their own stores; with the biggest events; with the school programs; computer games (the big ones like Dawn of War and Total War Warhammer) and heck soon to be TV (or at least film/series shows).

With all that outreach GW is securing most of the market that there is for wargaming all on their own. It's not that there isn't more out there, I'm sure there is, but its that any other firm would have to invest heavily into beating that marketing and outreach machine. Otherwise all they are doing is relying on weakness in the GW system and exploiting it. Or variation in creative/game design elements to attract niches of the GW customer base.




So I'd say if you want to compete with GW you've got to invest a fortune in marketing, in outreach and basically trying to get as many customers first. Product quality, range, diversity, game design etc... all that is secondary compared to marketing. Otherwise all you'll do is rely on GW to get you customers and then have to "poach" them. This always runs the risk like PP and a good many others felt; when GW pulls its finger out and reacts to major market desires and shifts their attitude. Because it means a good chunk of your customers will go "Ohh shiny my first wargame interest is looking neat - I'll just dust off my old minis and go play".

Granted PP had other issues at the same time, it was a double hit. However it still stands that it happened and a big part of it was GW looking more attractive for a bit.

 Big Mac wrote:
I got into warhammer because I was buying magic cards while a teen; so I could see MtG made into a TT game with its miniatures and cards to do battle sort of like warmachine.

The IP is there, fandom is there, they just need to make the miniatures and the game.

They tried a while back but was really a weird gateway attempt that only appealed to existing players plus theyd have to take Rosewater out behind the barn first

With a 40 year headstart GW are nigh invunerable, the odd fumble might let smaller players in for a while from time to time but their momentum makes them fairly unstoppable

Time machine.

It seemed more a possibility in the Kirby days when GW was on the decline and there were a few big up and comers. Now GW is generally on the ball and the most likely contenders pooped the bed. GW is a bit like apple with everything integrated and pointing back to other arms of GW to have their products advertise for their other products and have just about every aspect of the hobby covered short of an AI to play against or something. There are plenty of better games, there are some better models out there (though no where as consistent or diverse as GW), there are better paints, better tools, better fiction, etc. Even 40K is pretty far from the game in many ways from previous incarnations.

As said above, marketing, visibility, and advertising.

Having better rules or models is irrelevant if you can't convince people to use them, and convincing people to use them is difficult if you can't organise and consolidate your playerbase. No matter how good your product or rules, you need to be able to reach out to people who might not be so open to trying things that aren't directly well supported and have a strong community behind them.

 Big Mac wrote:
I got into warhammer because I was buying magic cards while a teen; so I could see MtG made into a TT game with its miniatures and cards to do battle sort of like warmachine.

The IP is there, fandom is there, they just need to make the miniatures and the game.

They won't, though.
WotC already did miniatures games (and dealt with several legacy miniatures games). They went nowhere. They even tried to mix them with random MtG-style boosters for both D&D and Star Wars, and they still failed. Metal (brief attempt at reviving Chainmail, at least in name), plastics, prepaints, they made multiple attempts. None went anywhere.

They're trying (halfheartedly) to mix M:tG into D&D, and not seeing a great response to it. Going for a miniatures game won't go very far, at least partially because of the IP issues (scrub the proper names off and MtG is very generic), and partially because outside Magic, their grasp of rules-writing isn't notably well regarded. There wouldn't be much faith they could manage a better rule-set.

Overread wrote:I think one key aspect that GW has the edge on is the highstreet stores. Whilst almost every other retailer is fleeing the highstreet, GW is holding out (and as yet hasn't had to pair with food outlets at a national level to survive).

I'm always dubious about this. Its a factor that doesn't matter anywhere but Britain (and maybe Austrailia/NZ). The rest of the world gets by fine relying mostly on indie stores.

 Vaktathi wrote:

FFG got close, with Xwing for a bit, but that was in large part due to mishandlings on GW's part and a confluence of new Star Wars movies, and didn't last.

FFG also has a bad habit of just dropping product lines.
That isn't a big deal when it comes to secondary games (like Blackstone Fortress), but its a terrible rep to have if you want people to buy into a big product line game.

mrFickle wrote:
I suppose what would it take for you to spend as much time on another game (I’m sure some already do) but also pay as much for the gear and maybe even drop 40k for another companies game. And for enough people to do it to rival GWs size.

I could see a world I inch Vallejo would attract a lot of attention using its big brand within mini gaming already to launch a serious competitor.

The way people complain about 40k it feels like it wouldn’t take much to make a better game in many people’s opinion

A vulkano blowing up both the GW HQ and their main factory kind of an event. Blow back from that, stop of production and financial problems that would follow, could open the way to some other company to enter the market in a big manner.

Voss wrote:

Overread wrote:I think one key aspect that GW has the edge on is the highstreet stores. Whilst almost every other retailer is fleeing the highstreet, GW is holding out (and as yet hasn't had to pair with food outlets at a national level to survive).

I'm always dubious about this. Its a factor that doesn't matter anywhere but Britain (and maybe Austrailia/NZ). The rest of the world gets by fine relying mostly on indie stores.

The thing is if you go into a GW store the only thing you can buy is GW product. From models to books to paint to brushes to glue - its all GW direct sales.
With an indie store you are heavily reliant on the staff and local playerbase to do the selling for you. This is why when PP lost their PG system a lot of their local recruitment up and vanished almost overnight.

Thing is a lot of indie store would rather sell card games. They have fast easy sales; are easy to push for impulsive sales; have a built in time limited period of use*; heck MTG even has game modes that require you to buy into them (Booster Draft). The potential sales are far greater. Wargames, in comparison, are worse. They sell slower; the prices are higher so you can't as easily encourage impulsive purchases; they have a long product lifespan etc.... So unless a new company could develop a means to make local stores really want to push their product; then they are reliant on local interest alone. This can be hard to manage and very hard to grow in specific areas.

GW on the other hand can release their own stores; even if its majority in the UK, it gives them a huge edge. Plus because they are well established the world over, they have that natural attraction of people being able to get games. Any newer firm has to compete against that. Local reps are essential, but at the same time its a fickle thing and not always as easy as one might think. MTG and PP both show how there can be big legal issues, esp if your company grows big. Most don't care about legal loopholes or challenging for pay etc.... when you're a one-man-shed firm; things change when you get into the big numbers.



*MTG cycles its cards on an annual basis. Each year you get what 2 or 3 new blocks and an annual "core". Sure you can use them in extended formats, but the standard limited format is only that smaller current selection of blocks.

 Overread wrote:

Voss wrote:

Overread wrote:I think one key aspect that GW has the edge on is the highstreet stores. Whilst almost every other retailer is fleeing the highstreet, GW is holding out (and as yet hasn't had to pair with food outlets at a national level to survive).

I'm always dubious about this. Its a factor that doesn't matter anywhere but Britain (and maybe Austrailia/NZ). The rest of the world gets by fine relying mostly on indie stores.

The thing is if you go into a GW store the only thing you can buy is GW product. From models to books to paint to brushes to glue - its all GW direct sales.

Yes. That's a bad thing. Sure the direct sale thing is good for GW as a business (maybe, I'm not particularly convinced the rents and salaries and etc are worth the sales difference), but nuts to that. Its bad for customers.

With an indie store you are heavily reliant on the staff and local playerbase to do the selling for you. This is why when PP lost their PG system a lot of their local recruitment up and vanished almost overnight.

Eh. My experience with PP games had zero to do with PG system. The last one I dealt with was actually a detriment.

GW on the other hand can release their own stores; even if its majority in the UK, it gives them a huge edge. Plus because they are well established the world over, they have that natural attraction of people being able to get games.

Here, 'getting games' isn't a thing in GW stores. Even if there IS one nearby (and by 'nearby' I mean, within several hours' drive), they're just too small, and don't have adequate table space (or table sizes). Most can manage a demo game in a 4x4 table, but that's the practical limit. Outside the even more rare 'battle bunkers' (which I'm not sure even exist anymore). The GW stores are more boutique showcases where they hope Mommy and little Timmy will wander in while passing by in the mall and drop money on a couple boxes.

Same question is, how can an MMO take the top place from WoW

the only answer is, if the original game dies.

even if people switch, they will complain that it is not like their original game and they go back as soon as the next Update/Expansion hit
no matter how bad the game is

this is for 2 reasons, people are used to it and people have spend lots of money and they will "lose" it if they switch


So, you can only get the top spot over time, if you the new game gets more new people in than the old game does

and there is a chance that this is happening, but the company also needs a long term plan, how to handle things in 5-10 years

Warmachine/Hordes was on the way, as was X-Wing or FoW but they failed after their initial success, mainly because the new recruits were missing after a while (for different reason) and Edition changes were not taken well by the community (you only can mess things up with a new Edition of you are the Top Dog, no one is going to leave Warcraft for ever because 1 update was bad, they will return, same with 40k)


Most companies now just have their niche inside the market and don't want to be the top company as there is no point to try