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Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter




Somerdale, NJ, USA

Just finished rereading the Gaunt's Ghost Series for the 4th or 5th times and I it just hit me - is there any reason why GW couldn't make actual Traitor Guard a thing?

Now I'm not talking about the troop tax of 'cultist' that exist now or the FW Guard that will probably never be fully and/or properly integrated into 40k ; I mean actual Traitor Guard like the Blood Pact or Sons.

All of the recent fluff has talked about this regiment turning traitor or this regiment falling to chaos; why not make it an actual usable army if it's so prolific in the fluff.

Two simple ways they could do this:
1. Copy the GSC method of including Guard units in a CSM or Demon army. Separate Detachment with no regimental traits or maybe 5 different Chaos god 'regimental doctrines'
2. In the actual Guard Codex make one of the first choices be Chaos or Imperial with the army gaining the associated Keyword. Then choose regiments, units, etc...


Thoughts?

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

- 8k /// - 5k /// - 5k /// - 6k /// - 6k /// - 4k /// - 4k 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

Traitor Guard exist thanks to the 40K rules for Blackstone Fortress. There was also Renegades and Heretics from Forge World that let you sort of build them. With the Blackstone stuff and R&H clearly being squatted, there's a theory we'll see a full book sometime in 9th.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Australia

Wouldn't be surprised to see it happen eventually, most likely as an option under a broader "Lost and the Damned" style book. We've already seen some Traitor Guard models in BSF after all

Sons of Horus 29th Company
Emperor's Children
Legio Magna + House Morbidia 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Lord Clinto wrote:
Just finished rereading the Gaunt's Ghost Series for the 4th or 5th times and I it just hit me - is there any reason why GW couldn't make actual Traitor Guard a thing?

Now I'm not talking about the troop tax of 'cultist' that exist now or the FW Guard that will probably never be fully and/or properly integrated into 40k ; I mean actual Traitor Guard like the Blood Pact or Sons.

All of the recent fluff has talked about this regiment turning traitor or this regiment falling to chaos; why not make it an actual usable army if it's so prolific in the fluff.

Two simple ways they could do this:
1. Copy the GSC method of including Guard units in a CSM or Demon army. Separate Detachment with no regimental traits or maybe 5 different Chaos god 'regimental doctrines'
2. In the actual Guard Codex make one of the first choices be Chaos or Imperial with the army gaining the associated Keyword. Then choose regiments, units, etc...


Thoughts?


FW is officially integrated

that aside, yes you could make actual traitor guard, yes that included up to traitor Stormtroopers, yes you could dedicate them to any good you'd like.

Further take on it, Servants of the abyss, will probably be turned at one point into a propper plastic range.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





If it works on the assumption that these are contemporary legions going rogue then GW only really needs a supplement that says what units you can use, has a few characters, and strats. Unless it’s impossible to make current guard models look rogue due to IG insignia etc
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

mrFickle wrote:
If it works on the assumption that these are contemporary legions going rogue then GW only really needs a supplement that says what units you can use, has a few characters, and strats. Unless it’s impossible to make current guard models look rogue due to IG insignia etc


It's insanely easy to make current Guard look rogue. Just shave off the Guard emblems(Catachans only really have them on their guns, Cadians on guns and helmets) and the Cadians' Imperial Eagles on the chest at minimum. Paint on Chaos Stars and/or add spikeys to taste.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 22:50:06


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

Its really ridiculous that they never released them in the past. A codex and a few conversion/accessory kits on top of the regular guard range would have let them sell a lot of models. Real missed opportunity that will hopefully be corrected this edition.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Its really ridiculous that they never released them in the past. A codex and a few conversion/accessory kits on top of the regular guard range would have let them sell a lot of models. Real missed opportunity that will hopefully be corrected this edition.
They were called Lost and the Damned (3.5, and I think versions in RT and 2) then Renegades & Heretics (5-8 via FW?)

They really could do with a regular codex or even just a GSC-style IG variation, though.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Traitor Guard should absolutely should have rules.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Insectum7 wrote:
Traitor Guard should absolutely should have rules.


Well until recently we had, .. kinda. well we had rules for what ammounts to a bunch of murderhobos worshiipping chaos becaus SCHTOOPID, because that is what the FW index for 8th was... now we don't even have that...

meanwhile some nobody milksops get a whole WD index Feelsbadman.

Spoiler:


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





They could include it in the demons codex. Add section to cover off traitor guard and cultists. I think they go along side demons better than CSM although there should me rules to merge all the armies to be a force of chaos
   
Made in gb
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





As mentioned Traitor Guard have been done (sort of) in the past, and ruleswise could easily be done again.

I think what’s stopping this from happening is that GW don’t want to support them, with a codex and full model support. It also means supporting yet another 40K army, some people argue that 40K has too many armies already.

I don’t know how well Renegades & Heretics sold, though maybe GW have assumed that based on those sales a full release is not worth it. Of course a full release is very different to a Forgeworld release.

Also, what would Traitor Guard bring that Imperial Guard don’t already bring to the table? Especially since Genestealer Cults are now a thing. Is the fact that they can ally with other Chaos factions enough to differentiate them?
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Southampton, UK

You could do it with two words (adding 'or CHAOS' to their faction categories) and a chaosy bits sprue.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





personally I'd like to see a full blown lost and damned codex, with generic cultists removed from codex chaos space marines (the cultist unit is problematic back when I started I THOUGHT I wanted cultists in the codex, I started in 5th edition so they weren't a thing but I've since decided cultists are proably bad for the codices internal balance)

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





BrianDavion wrote:
personally I'd like to see a full blown lost and damned codex, with generic cultists removed from codex chaos space marines (the cultist unit is problematic back when I started I THOUGHT I wanted cultists in the codex, I started in 5th edition so they weren't a thing but I've since decided cultists are proably bad for the codices internal balance)


The cultist unit is problematic because GW can't write half decent rules for all CSM subfactions.
As exemplified by codex CSM 8th edition, or 4th, or 6th.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
El Torro wrote:

I don’t know how well Renegades & Heretics sold, though maybe GW have assumed that based on those sales a full release is not worth it. Of course a full release is very different to a Forgeworld release.


Badly, because A, the models were upgrade sets ontop of cadian bodies, in a horde army, yes that meant you'd paid 40£ to fully upgrade a squad of cadians into a R&H inf squad, which also had platoon rules so you'd need 2 more of these squads, which gave you at best, (fully kited out) between30 -75 pts.
B: more importantly, their rules support was often, really, lackluster sometimes casually sitting 2-3 editions behind their release, something which changed in late 6th -7th edition , with IA 13. which then led to a massive uptick in players of the faction, because the rules were decent, customizable, and supoorted well.
Granted with 7th in general beeing a downturn in player population because formations, allies and other niceties and was a wierd juxtaposition.

Also, what would Traitor Guard bring that Imperial Guard don’t already bring to the table? Especially since Genestealer Cults are now a thing. Is the fact that they can ally with other Chaos factions enough to differentiate them?


Spoiler:
firstly, Traitor guard would be,optimally, just one subfaction.
R&H or lost and the damned , or cults, or however you like to name them, had a tendency to be a pool of all sorts of heretics and renegades.
The most expansive work was that IA13 which allowed you to represent:

PDF forces, Psyker cults, Mutant uprisings, Hive city rebellions, che guevara style arch heretic revolutionaires hidding behind noble goals, heretek magos of varying preference, Mercenary forces of dubious loyality, turned formations of traitor guard, bloodpact style formations, turned stormtroopers, monotheistic followers of Khorne nurgle slaanesh tzeentch, zombie apocalypse, trained or untrained , etc. etc. and whatever in between you could come up with.

And yes, you were indeed able to represent all these with one list. Did it have some issues?

Yes, from unstackable 6+++ (which should've probably been combinable with another one to form a 5+++), questionable options like , erm grenadierspam (really really mean option) mutants (really really bad option) , a somewhat lackluster psy discipline for the average psyker in the force, mercenaries only hireable by unaligned Chaos forces, covenants (aka marks)all at the same price but quite differing in performance, Ogryns and some other biger gribblies beeing really bad, bs 2+ fortification garisons (mostly due to GW messing up alot at the time, including fortifications) , vehicles that suffered because well hullpoints..., Artillery either beeing worthless or broken if you used the purge formation thanks GW for that one..., A pts handicap for morale improvement to acceptable levels respectively the absolute binarity of either havin really wierdly good morale on units or terribad due to the construction of the morale rules affecting R&H at the time and the baseline morale system. And last but not least, sadly not really a good way to represent cult like structres. Which was about the only thing missing.

Overall, it is a bit like why chaos space marines 3.5 was so liked, customizable to all ends, your dudes were your dudes and the vast expanse of lore for such formations cults etc, allowed for great creative freedom and conversion. Sadly in 8th gw decided to completely yeet that concept, bleigh was dead and instead we got index malefic brimstone spam, with a side of unproofread garbage murderhobos.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/09 10:54:25


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

El Torro wrote:

I think what’s stopping this from happening is that GW don’t want to support them, with a codex and full model support. It also means supporting yet another 40K army, some people argue that 40K has too many armies already.


The game has too many armies for R&H or Corsairs, but not so many that we won't be adding even more Marines.


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 vipoid wrote:
El Torro wrote:

I think what’s stopping this from happening is that GW don’t want to support them, with a codex and full model support. It also means supporting yet another 40K army, some people argue that 40K has too many armies already.


The game has too many armies for R&H or Corsairs, but not so many that we won't be adding even more Marines.



The fact of the matter is, both lists require marginal brainpower and writting skill, not to mention a bit more playtesting due to beeing alot more customizable then their contemporaries, both costs money, it's easier to just CtrlC +CtrlV and then switch some words around.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




BrianDavion wrote:
personally I'd like to see a full blown lost and damned codex, with generic cultists removed from codex chaos space marines (the cultist unit is problematic back when I started I THOUGHT I wanted cultists in the codex, I started in 5th edition so they weren't a thing but I've since decided cultists are proably bad for the codices internal balance)


I could see this. At this point they got a point rise because they got <legion> traits, then got the <legion> trait stripped, didn't get the point cost back, and then were systematically removed from a lot of stratagems, then got the standard 9th edition point inflation (while their guard counterparts didn't, and they still get special rules, <regiment> and strats).

Being moved away from the chaos marines lets them get reworked in their own environment, and then anyone who wants them can pay the CP tax for a detachment. Or, hopefully, they're workable enough that it can be the other way around- CSM detachments for a LotD army.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut





Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut





Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Kithail wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?

I have a list in this thread this is how much you failed to actually read.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh

How about Loyalist Scum with csm rules without spikes? Or Dark Eldar using CWE rules with spikes?

R&H were so much more than "guard with spikes". Not Online!!! made a list a few comments back. I won't repeat it, as I hope you have the ability to scroll up.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh

How about Loyalist Scum with csm rules without spikes?


Probably not the best example to use considering the amount of people that ask for something like that to differentiate Renegade Chaos Marines and Legion ones.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/09 20:56:02


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Platuan4th wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh

How about Loyalist Scum with csm rules without spikes?


Probably not the best example to use considering the amount of people that ask for something like that to differentiate Renegade Chaos Marines and Legion ones.

Most of those people want loyalist vehicles and weapons with spikes, not csm vehicles and weapons without spikes.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




 Kithail wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?


Chaos Spawn, mutants, beastmen, daemon engines, summoned daemons, rituals, improvised weapons and utility vehicles rather than main battle tanks, etc.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Kithail wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?


I can think of infinitely more interesting units for traitor guardsmen than I can for fething space marines at this point. Just off the top of my head, what would be cool:

-Mutant infantry
-Fantasy-style flagellants
-Crazy mutated/possessed ogryn
-Beastmen with 40k versions of minotaurs
-Crazy psykers who have a built in way to get bonuses like weirdboyz where the goal with them is to try and peril so they can turn into spawn/possessed
-Actual dark mechanicus representatives in 40k
-Semi-daemon engine'd guard vehicles

What do marines need? "wow better release another unit of guys with boltguns, don't have many of those. Maybe these boltguns could have...like...maybe they're like bolt SHOTGUNS so the kids we want to play space marines can get them cus' fortnite. We'll model one of the marines doing a fortnite dance, it's brilliant!"

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





the_scotsman wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh


Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?


Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?


I can think of infinitely more interesting units for traitor guardsmen than I can for fething space marines at this point. Just off the top of my head, what would be cool:

-Mutant infantry
-Fantasy-style flagellants
-Crazy mutated/possessed ogryn
-Beastmen with 40k versions of minotaurs
-Crazy psykers who have a built in way to get bonuses like weirdboyz where the goal with them is to try and peril so they can turn into spawn/possessed
-Actual dark mechanicus representatives in 40k
-Semi-daemon engine'd guard vehicles

What do marines need? "wow better release another unit of guys with boltguns, don't have many of those. Maybe these boltguns could have...like...maybe they're like bolt SHOTGUNS so the kids we want to play space marines can get them cus' fortnite. We'll model one of the marines doing a fortnite dance, it's brilliant!"


it's a shame that all existed then isn't it.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





I mean, yes. I had my annoyances about it (like yet another army where GW decided that for some reason being totally worse than the loyalist equivalent didnt mean you could expect to pay less points for your stuff) but I felt the RnH list was pretty fun in 7th.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, yes. I had my annoyances about it (like yet another army where GW decided that for some reason being totally worse than the loyalist equivalent didnt mean you could expect to pay less points for your stuff) but I felt the RnH list was pretty fun in 7th.


it was, it had it's fair share of BS though admittedly aswell.
But comparatively in quality torwards rules and balance it still was superior then the rest of the drivel GW at the time threw out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/10 11:38:22


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
 
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