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Hello, this is my first post here. I'm a new player, or rather a returning player after a hiatus of 17 years.
I still had my army of Chaos Space Marines, and I recently decided to paint them (most of my models were just sprayed black) and buy some new stuff. Along with the new codex and the 9th edition book, I decided to pick up a “start collecting” box (the one with Master of Possession, Obliterators, etc..), a Lord Discordant and a Maulerfiend/Forgefiend.
I assembled everything (except for the Lord Disco and the Mauler/Forgefiend) and painted them as Black Legion, and I'd like to ask for advice to build a 2000 points and a 1000 points lists with what I currently have. It doesn't really need to be super competitive, I just want it to be fun and maybe win some games.
I'm also asking for help regarding tactics, which traits, psychic powers, stratagems to use, etc...
As of now, I can't really tell which trait or stratagem is better, and what should be the main focus of the army.
This is what I have:

HQ:
- 1 Daemon Prince
- 1 Chaos Lord
- 1 Sorcerer
- 1 Master of Possession
- 1 Lord Discordant (still have to build this, which weapon is better?)

Troops
- 25 Chaos Space Marines

Elite
- 6 Terminators
- 2 Greater Possessed
- 8 Khorne Berzerkers

Fast Attack
- 3 Chaos Bikers

Heavy Support
- 2 Obliterators
- 1 Venomcrawler
- 1 Maulerfiend/Forgefiend (still have to assembly)

Transport
- Chaos Rhino

The only thing I'm planning to buy is the Heldrake because I love the model, and maybe a Defiler, so I'd like to build a good army list with what I have without needing to invest more money.
I can also provide some pictures if you need to see how the models are equipped.
Thanks in advance

Greetings and welcome back man. You have a solid mix of units that will work pretty well for you I think. I'm not a BL player but heres where I'd start..

Battalion detachment

HQ
1st hq- master of possession, mark of slaanesh, mutated invigoration,infernal power. Buffs oblits, can swap smite into delightful agonies or other good stuff like warp time (if close) etc.

2nd hq- all of those are viable just depends. The disco I'd go baleflamer he can support the other daemon engines. Sorc or lord I suggest jump packs, sorc with prescience/warp time typically or otherwise delightful agonies.
DP is now questionable. Personally I feel they aren't worth taking outside of death guard or Tsons.

Troops
3x5 csm, bolters, 1 reaper chaincannon. This may change with updates but for now thats what I would suggest. If you really wanna run more double the count and the reapers and add a fist. As BL you could consider double las or missiles if taking abby but thats another topic since you don't have the model.

Elites
Id run the termies with mark of slaanesh for double tapping with endless cacophony, all combi plas and chainaxes. Zerks with all chainaxes/chainswords and champ with fist inside that rhino. Greater posse leave out for now. If theres room they can ride inside the rhino with the zerks to make for a triple threat.

Fast attack
if you like these I've heard decent things about them with plas or melta on all 3 as combi weapons. No other upgrades.

HS
2 oblits, slaanesh for cacophony. Master of possession reduces their randomness (works on both shots with cacophony)

Defiler- scourge for 140 is solid now. Venomcrawler and forgefiend I've never used as there are better options. I'd leave these off unless you need filler. If using the daemon engines aggressively a disco lord would do well. If more slow rolling shooting variety then master of possession (a mop) can buff them instead.

Flyers
The heldrake is not overly killy at range or in combat. However it is a huge fire magnet and I can recommend it. The main purpose is threatening their backfield units especially tanks with a turn 1 assault if they don't kill it. This should leave your other units more intact.

Anyway thats a very fast general shell of what I would start with. You will need a lord nearby any unit focusing on plasma to mitigate overcharge. try and build around veterans of the long war (votlw) and endless cacophony (EC) as these are some of the most potent strats in the game. For other suggestions consider making some of those csm into chosen with combi weapons preferrably plasmas and consider picking up another rhino for multi use. Note the chosen can be placed into strategic reserves for a budget termicide unit.

Thats what I got..

dominuschao wrote:
Greetings and welcome back man. You have a solid mix of units that will work pretty well for you I think. I'm not a BL player but heres where I'd start..

Thanks a lot! Your answer is very useful to me!

So, buying the Defiler and the Heldrake seems a good choice.

I still don't know what to do with the Forgefiend/Maulerfiend. I like the looks of both models, but I'd like to build the one that's more useful.

I couldn't tell you from play experience. But from using comparable units such as dual butcher cannon contemptors and blood slaughterers I'd say both are good, depending on other factors. The hades AC is worse this edition just due to terrain and cover, but still very efficient for its cost. The mauler I would want a second, or if not then the venomcrawler to accompany for saturation. The forgefiend you could camp backfield and maaybe get away with 1.

Edit- Idk if I'd buy a defiler quite yet. They are horribly expensive atm and very old kit. There might be a new one on the horizon. Probably not ll just sayin. If you own one its worth playing. If not the model is like that super ugly dog. Its too ugly but if you own one you kinda get attached to it.

Every CSM army needs a unit of havocs with four RCCs. They put out 32 shots at S5 AP-1 D1. With prescience they hit on 2s, with a chaos lord nearby they reroll 1s, with votlw they get +1 to wound, and with mark of slaanesh and endless cacophony they get to shoot again. That 64 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound.

So, in terms of which trait is best, from what I've heard from other chaos players most of the reason to go for Black Legion is to get Abbadon on the table - he's quite powerful, and compared to other chaos factions like Night Lords and Alpha Legion the abilities you get out of BL aren't that amazing.

Without abbadon, your warlord is most likely goin to be the Lord Discordant with the "incoming damage is halved" trait. I'd go for Baleflamer.

Also, I'd go for the Maulerfiend, so that you can have the lord discordant paired with those two dudes, charging up against the enemy while the rest of your list plays fire support.

Here's how I'd run the list at 1000 points:

Lord Discordant 180+Baleflamer 20. Warlord: Indomitable. Relic: Sightless Helm.
HQ: Master of Possession 95

Troops: 5x Chaos Space Marines, 70 Reaper Chaincannon 20
Troops: 5x Chaos Space Marines, 70 Reaper Chaincannon 20
Troops: 5x Chaos Space Marines, 70 Reaper Chaincannon 20

Elites: 5x Khorne Bezerkers with Chainaxe+Chainsword 90

Transport: Chaos Rhino 75, Combi-Bolter and Havoc Launcher 8.

Heavy: Venomcrawler 130
Heavy: Maulerfiend 130, Mechatendrils

998 points.

Basically, you want to take the power that gives +1 to hit and wound and the power that gives +1 to invuln on the Master of Possession, advance him up the board and try to keep him within 6" of the daemon engines turn 1 to defend them, and use the rhino full of bezerkers to threaten the other flank on the map. CSM move up onto objectives to hold them and act like stationary gun turrets (all their guns fire to full effect if they don't move 24" away) and they and later the rhino score while your daemon engines and bezerkers take the fight to the enemy.

Fine list. Doesn't gain much from being black legion. Could be pretty much any legion and work just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM army needs a unit of havocs with four RCCs. They put out 32 shots at S5 AP-1 D1. With prescience they hit on 2s, with a chaos lord nearby they reroll 1s, with votlw they get +1 to wound, and with mark of slaanesh and endless cacophony they get to shoot again. That 64 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound.

I actually kind of disagree with this because they end up being 37 points per single T5 wound. I've found people running RCCs in their space marine squads give minimum squads of chaos marines a whole hell of a lot more threat than normal, and it's a lot harder to get rid of the chain cannons that way.

Like yeah, I know the second I see a havoc squad full of RCCs theyre gonna drop every strat and power on them and that's gonna suck for me, but its also incredibly easy to kill them.

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM army needs a unit of havocs with four RCCs. They put out 32 shots at S5 AP-1 D1. With prescience they hit on 2s, with a chaos lord nearby they reroll 1s, with votlw they get +1 to wound, and with mark of slaanesh and endless cacophony they get to shoot again. That 64 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound.

OMG! Thanks for pointing this out. I had not noticed Havocs were T5. And I thought they were able to take autocannons, not chain cannons.

While I like the Havocs, am I correct that I can take 2 RCCs per 10 man CSM squad?

 Green is Best! wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM army needs a unit of havocs with four RCCs. They put out 32 shots at S5 AP-1 D1. With prescience they hit on 2s, with a chaos lord nearby they reroll 1s, with votlw they get +1 to wound, and with mark of slaanesh and endless cacophony they get to shoot again. That 64 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound.

OMG! Thanks for pointing this out. I had not noticed Havocs were T5. And I thought they were able to take autocannons, not chain cannons.

While I like the Havocs, am I correct that I can take 2 RCCs per 10 man CSM squad?

you are.

personally, I'd run Havocs with a safer, slightly cheaper weapon, like Autocannons, or Lascannons where they can attack from extreme range and won't be targeted quite so much.

The nice thing about a RCC in a 5-man squad of chaos marines, is that the chaos marines are fighting at their peak effective range (24") and also they're 4 bodies that only cost 14pts that also stand in the way.

Plus, you'll be including them anyway (they're the minimum troops!), so you may as well bring them in.

You are, and I personally prefer them there (until the updates to wounds anyway).
Note that they are not relentless (forgot the name) so still suffer -1 to hit when moving unlike the havocs.

You basically trade more than twice the damage output and worthwhile use of EC for much greater resilience on the guns due to ablatives. Its a solid unit and I'll add PF/cbplas champ is also a worthwhile investment, at 10 strong.

A unit of 10 CSM with two RCCs is minimum 194 pts. They suffer -1 to hit when moving and firing heavy weapons. Using prescience and votlw on them is inefficient. A havoc unit with RCCs is 165 pts. Yes, they die pretty fast (CSM too), but before they do, they kill at least their points value, its usually more. AL has a strat which protects a unit from getting shot, unless its the closest unit. Making sure something else is closer to the enemy makes sure havocs survive another turn.