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Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






I recall that in some parts of 8E it was mentioned that the emperor's golden throne life support system was beginning to break down and the ad mech's highest mages of mars could not fix it.

Was this ever expanded on and developed into a major plotpoint or did bellisariius cawl just find a 38,000 year old can of flex seal and give it a few good sprays? (Before using the rest to make a boat out of window mesh and row it across the imperial reflecting pool?)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 12:40:07


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
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Yup, they called in some Dark Eldar to try and help, but we don't know how that went, how successful it was, or really anything other than that.

It's definitely not fixed, but I also wouldn't say it's worthy of immediate plot development.


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The 9th BRB indicates its still probably not fixed, and Big E is needing a larger stack of psyker snacks every day.
   
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Watch Fortress Excalibris

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yup, they called in some Dark Eldar to try and help, but we don't know how that went, how successful it was, or really anything other than that.

It went badly. See Carry On Throning... er... I mean Chris Wraight's The Carrion Throne.

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
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Stevenage, UK

Whaaaaaaaa...?! Which absolute genius numpty decided that calling in the Drukhari to take a look was ever a good idea?!
Is this by any chance a Black Library book that's got some questionable canon...?

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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UK

 Super Ready wrote:
Whaaaaaaaa...?! Which absolute genius numpty decided that calling in the Drukhari to take a look was ever a good idea?!
Is this by any chance a Black Library book that's got some questionable canon...?


Whilst they might not be very upstanding, of all the races, they have the best understanding of prolonging organic life, whilst being sane enough and moderately trustworthy by Xenos standards. Craftworld are more trustworthy, but at the same time likely don't really bother focusing on that kind of technology.

Plus don't forget many races piggy-back off the Emperors Lighthouse and, whilst Eldar might not like humans, most would respect that they are doing about the best at holding the Galaxy from being overrun by Chaos/Orks/Tyranids. All three major threats to the Eldar. You might hate the Imperium, but its very useful to have around. Granted one might argue Tau are the new shining boys for the Eldar, but they've a long long way to go yet.

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 Super Ready wrote:
Whaaaaaaaa...?! Which absolute genius numpty decided that calling in the Drukhari to take a look was ever a good idea?!

Three of the High Lords of Terra - Fabricator-General Oud Oudia Raskian, Speaker for the Chartist Captains Kania Dhanda, and Master of the Astronomican Leops Franck.
   
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 Super Ready wrote:
Whaaaaaaaa...?! Which absolute genius numpty decided that calling in the Drukhari to take a look was ever a good idea?!
Is this by any chance a Black Library book that's got some questionable canon...?


Yeah I understand your response. But, it is worth remembering that most denizens of the imperium outside of the Xenos Inquisitors don't seem to know or care to make a distinction between Drukhari and Eldar. You would think that three highlords world, you know, make an informed decision with something so dire but I guess the point was to express the severity of the situation. It's an extreme risk that they most likely assume will fail but, maybe, just maybe it won't. It really drives home the utter lack of understanding regarding the workings of the Golden Throne and the Emperor's actual status.

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From the 8th ed Drukhari codex:

Tortured Throne
"Following the apparent abduction of several Custodian Guard, Inquisitors of the Ordo Xenos pursue the Coven of the Twisted Spiral to a wandering moon deep in the interstellar void. Hopes of catching their quarry soon vanish, but on the moon’s barren surface the Inquisitors find what appears to be a simulacrum of the Golden Throne, covered in blood and viscera. Just as they are sending word of their discovery, the Twisted Spiral appear and butcher the Imperial agents."

Looks like work is still ongoing

If anyone can figure out a fix for the Golden throne, it's the Covens.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 16:38:44


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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Grumblewartz wrote:
 Super Ready wrote:
Whaaaaaaaa...?! Which absolute genius numpty decided that calling in the Drukhari to take a look was ever a good idea?!
Is this by any chance a Black Library book that's got some questionable canon...?


Yeah I understand your response. But, it is worth remembering that most denizens of the imperium outside of the Xenos Inquisitors don't seem to know or care to make a distinction between Drukhari and Eldar. You would think that three highlords world, you know, make an informed decision with something so dire but I guess the point was to express the severity of the situation. It's an extreme risk that they most likely assume will fail but, maybe, just maybe it won't. It really drives home the utter lack of understanding regarding the workings of the Golden Throne and the Emperor's actual status.


Thing is without the Golden Throne the Imperium falls in a day.

Their entire empire relies on the faster than light travel and that relies on the Golden Throne and the Astrowhatsitcalled. Shut that down and the Imperium has no faster than light travel beyond the odd kind Eldar loaning them a webway portal. They'd lose every ship in the Warp at the moment of shutdown and every connecting world would be isolated. Core worlds like Terra wouldn't even need invasion to fall, they'd run out of resources and food before long and would crumble. Feral and more self sufficient worlds would struggle on, but would have no protection from aliens who use other means to travel the void of space.

Tyranids would run amok and Orks would cause untold damage. Tau would be able to firmly estabilsh themselves, but even they rely in part on the Imperium protecting them from greater threats (though more by accident than intent on the part of the Imperium).



So yes I can see the High Lords making any move they can to restore the Throne, they would even, if it was dire enough, resort to Chaos itself to restore the functionality. Of course that would blight the Imperium at the core; it would be a last chance effort at retaining connections whilst they'd have to rush to try and abandon generations of dogma to research sciences long lost and never looked into in order to try and jumpstart another faster than light travel system.

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Except that half of the empire can’t see the astronomicon and are surviving.
   
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mrFickle wrote:
Except that half of the empire can’t see the astronomicon and are surviving.


Surviving is a bit of a stretch. Warp travel in Nihilus is exquisitely dangerous.
   
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'Surviving,' I assume, having the meaning of 'not dead yet.'

We don't have much about what's going on in the other half. We know vaguely that at the end of the Devastation of Baal, Roboute showed up, polished off some needs after daemons got bored of jumping up and down on them, gave Dante a bunch of Primaris as replacements and said, 'Well, you get the job of fixing this half of the galaxy, have fun.' And swanned off again.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 20:58:22


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Longtime Dakkanaut






 Overread wrote:
 Super Ready wrote:
Whaaaaaaaa...?! Which absolute genius numpty decided that calling in the Drukhari to take a look was ever a good idea?!
Is this by any chance a Black Library book that's got some questionable canon...?


Whilst they might not be very upstanding, of all the races, they have the best understanding of prolonging organic life, whilst being sane enough and moderately trustworthy by Xenos standards. Craftworld are more trustworthy, but at the same time likely don't really bother focusing on that kind of technology.

Plus don't forget many races piggy-back off the Emperors Lighthouse and, whilst Eldar might not like humans, most would respect that they are doing about the best at holding the Galaxy from being overrun by Chaos/Orks/Tyranids. All three major threats to the Eldar. You might hate the Imperium, but its very useful to have around. Granted one might argue Tau are the new shining boys for the Eldar, but they've a long long way to go yet.


Hmmmm, bit if an here: Wht if the eldar could transfer the emperor's spirit/soul to a giant soulstone? I mean the emperor's body is like dead, but it's needed to anchor his soul to the materium I guess. Suppose the eldar made a giant infinity circuit to do that? I know, depends on the writer and the direction gw decides to take the game in. After all a major eldar figure helped bring guilleman back to life, obviously for reasons that suited the eldar. If keeping the emperor operational served their purposes, it stands to reason they'd do so.

Some say the dark eldar are best at extending physical life (Ballisarious cawl clears his throat with a sound like a main battle tank's transmission being stripped) but the thing is the emperor's body is apparentkly just a corpse in stasis, it's only (I guess) anchoring his spirit/soul to this plane.The eldar can anchor sould to keep them from being swept into the warp with soulstones.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 05:18:03


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Voss wrote:
'Surviving,' I assume, having the meaning of 'not dead yet.'

We don't have much about what's going on in the other half. We know vaguely that at the end of the Devastation of Baal, Roboute showed up, polished off some needs after daemons got bored of jumping up and down on them, gave Dante a bunch of Primaris as replacements and said, 'Well, you get the job of fixing this half of the galaxy, have fun.' And swanned off again.


We know Imperial ships can still do calculated jumps so interstellar travel and commerce could still continue after a fashion, just like it did before the Astronomicon. It does mean though trip times would be longer with more frequent stops to re-position. This increased travel time might mean contraction of effective human/Imperial control as worlds heavily dependent on long distance imports would need to find closer reliable suppliers or die off.

I could see different pocket empires emerging, maybe even claiming to be the rightful continuation of Imperial authority for the duration of the emergency. That in my headcanon would be a good way to justify Imperial vs Imperial fighting. They squabble over resources or territory, each genuinely believing they are acting in the interests of the Emperor and the Imperium. Not everything has to be Chaos related.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 08:30:22


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Matt Swain wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 Super Ready wrote:
Whaaaaaaaa...?! Which absolute genius numpty decided that calling in the Drukhari to take a look was ever a good idea?!
Is this by any chance a Black Library book that's got some questionable canon...?


Whilst they might not be very upstanding, of all the races, they have the best understanding of prolonging organic life, whilst being sane enough and moderately trustworthy by Xenos standards. Craftworld are more trustworthy, but at the same time likely don't really bother focusing on that kind of technology.

Plus don't forget many races piggy-back off the Emperors Lighthouse and, whilst Eldar might not like humans, most would respect that they are doing about the best at holding the Galaxy from being overrun by Chaos/Orks/Tyranids. All three major threats to the Eldar. You might hate the Imperium, but its very useful to have around. Granted one might argue Tau are the new shining boys for the Eldar, but they've a long long way to go yet.


Hmmmm, bit if an here: Wht if the eldar could transfer the emperor's spirit/soul to a giant soulstone? I mean the emperor's body is like dead, but it's needed to anchor his soul to the materium I guess. Suppose the eldar made a giant infinity circuit to do that? I know, depends on the writer and the direction gw decides to take the game in. After all a major eldar figure helped bring guilleman back to life, obviously for reasons that suited the eldar. If keeping the emperor operational served their purposes, it stands to reason they'd do so.

Some say the dark eldar are best at extending physical life (Ballisarious cawl clears his throat with a sound like a main battle tank's transmission being stripped) but the thing is the emperor's body is apparentkly just a corpse in stasis, it's only (I guess) anchoring his spirit/soul to this plane.The eldar can anchor sould to keep them from being swept into the warp with soulstones.



Aye but the Imperium might not be happy replacing the system with a Spirit Stone system. Remember in part they don't actually want the Emperor waking up. With a Soul Stone, in theory if it worked, the Emperor would likely be awake and thus able to influence his will. Many of the core power players in the Imperium don't really want him awake, they already have trouble exerting their influence now that a Primarch is back. Plus they know that, deep down, the Imperium isn't what the Emperor would want and they would have their heads for the chop (if they are lucky) for failing and leading it down a path to madness and stagnation.

Plus it wouldn't be Imperial tech it would be Xenos, how could you trust them that that little stone is the Emperor and not some Eldar pretending. Even without the internal politics tearing the Empire into bits, if the Emperor were proven to be dead and arisen in a Xenos stone chances are you'd have loads who would declare him a false emperor and reject him.

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 Overread wrote:
Plus they know that, deep down, the Imperium isn't what the Emperor would want and they would have their heads for the chop (if they are lucky) for failing and leading it down a path to madness and stagnation.


Do they, though...? I completely agree with the point about the High Lords not being willing to share power. But bear in mind they don't have the Black Library's Horus Heresy books to enjoy... records of what the Emperor was *actually* like will have all but completely disappeared, long since superceded by the Ecclesiarchy's brand of information.

Maybe - MAYBE - the highest ranking members of the Ecclesiarchy might know a bit about the true nature of the Emperor's vision for the Imperium, but I doubt it. And even if they do, they sure as hell aren't telling the other High Lords about it.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Voss wrote:
'Surviving,' I assume, having the meaning of 'not dead yet.'

We don't have much about what's going on in the other half. We know vaguely that at the end of the Devastation of Baal, Roboute showed up, polished off some needs after daemons got bored of jumping up and down on them, gave Dante a bunch of Primaris as replacements and said, 'Well, you get the job of fixing this half of the galaxy, have fun.' And swanned off again.


Blood angles aren’t the only SM chapter on that side of the galaxy, just the only one worth writing on a map. Typical GW though to Rio the galaxy in half and only talk about half of it.

Unless we are going to find out that the dark imperium is now largely under ork and necron control. That will be mega. Chaos sitting in the great rift watching xenos do their work for them.

However I doubt GW will ever commit to having the empire suffer such losses. Wasn’t the indomitus crusade put in place to bring the sanctity of the empire back to the dark imperium, therefore I think that battle has already been won.

I think GW needs to make a decision about the golden throne, fix or let it. They’ve put themselves in a cliffhanger now and need to provide closure. With RG back on the scene I can’t see him allowing The imperium to continue as if forever so either way I think the fluff for the empire is going to change significantly
   
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mrFickle wrote:

I think GW needs to make a decision about the golden throne, fix or let it. They’ve put themselves in a cliffhanger now and need to provide closure. With RG back on the scene I can’t see him allowing The imperium to continue as if forever so either way I think the fluff for the empire is going to change significantly


I don't agree, it's like saying that 40K needs to come to some conclusion....it doesn't. 40K should be a setting, not a story with an outcome lest we end up with a shower of gak like AoS again.

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 harlokin wrote:
mrFickle wrote:

I think GW needs to make a decision about the golden throne, fix or let it. They’ve put themselves in a cliffhanger now and need to provide closure. With RG back on the scene I can’t see him allowing The imperium to continue as if forever so either way I think the fluff for the empire is going to change significantly


I don't agree, it's like saying that 40K needs to come to some conclusion....it doesn't. 40K should be a setting, not a story with an outcome lest we end up with a shower of gak like AoS again.
True, nothing needs to change, but if that's the case then it's meaningless to say the throne is failing or the Imperium is losing to chaos or anything else; it's not really happening. The tyranids aren't really eating the galaxy, they're just taking a little nibble. The necrons aren't really waking up, they're just turning around in their sleep. The eldar aren't really headed for extinction, etc... If everything will stay the same forever, then all those supposed existential threats are just a joke.

It's like trying to get people scared about the fact that the Sun will blow up. In 10 billion years.
   
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dorset

 Tiennos wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
mrFickle wrote:

I think GW needs to make a decision about the golden throne, fix or let it. They’ve put themselves in a cliffhanger now and need to provide closure. With RG back on the scene I can’t see him allowing The imperium to continue as if forever so either way I think the fluff for the empire is going to change significantly


I don't agree, it's like saying that 40K needs to come to some conclusion....it doesn't. 40K should be a setting, not a story with an outcome lest we end up with a shower of gak like AoS again.
True, nothing needs to change, but if that's the case then it's meaningless to say the throne is failing or the Imperium is losing to chaos or anything else; it's not really happening. The tyranids aren't really eating the galaxy, they're just taking a little nibble. The necrons aren't really waking up, they're just turning around in their sleep. The eldar aren't really headed for extinction, etc... If everything will stay the same forever, then all those supposed existential threats are just a joke.

It's like trying to get people scared about the fact that the Sun will blow up. In 10 billion years.


maybe, but the "slowly failing" nature of the Golden Throne has been a part of the setting for many years. lexicanum quotes references to it starting to suffer unrepairable failures in the 5th edition rulebook, back in 2008. its been failing for over 12 years of real time, and they still havent "resolved" that plot.

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United Kingdom

And "The Hollow Mountain" (the sequel to "The Carrion Throne") takes place as The Great Rift opens, so it's several hundred years before the current setting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 14:56:16


 
   
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What I'm saying is that if a cliffhanger lasts for 20 years it's not a cliffhanger, it's the status quo. The throne isn't actually failing, we're just being told that it is to create some tension. That only works until you realize that this tension is completely artificial and the throne will still be failing just fine in 20 more years. Seeing the doomsday clock at 5 seconds to midnight is much less impressive when the clock is broken.

Unless the writers decide to take a leap and resolve that plot point one way or another, it's barely relevant.
   
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Bodt

 Tiennos wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
mrFickle wrote:

I think GW needs to make a decision about the golden throne, fix or let it. They’ve put themselves in a cliffhanger now and need to provide closure. With RG back on the scene I can’t see him allowing The imperium to continue as if forever so either way I think the fluff for the empire is going to change significantly


I don't agree, it's like saying that 40K needs to come to some conclusion....it doesn't. 40K should be a setting, not a story with an outcome lest we end up with a shower of gak like AoS again.
True, nothing needs to change, but if that's the case then it's meaningless to say the throne is failing or the Imperium is losing to chaos or anything else; it's not really happening. The tyranids aren't really eating the galaxy, they're just taking a little nibble. The necrons aren't really waking up, they're just turning around in their sleep. The eldar aren't really headed for extinction, etc... If everything will stay the same forever, then all those supposed existential threats are just a joke.

It's like trying to get people scared about the fact that the Sun will blow up. In 10 billion years.



This highlights an interesting problem that probably hasn't happened before. We have a universe with its own canon, with evolving storylines, but crucially, another factor, miniatures for different factions that people invest in. Where do we go? Does it stay in a sort of suspended animation, or does the story need to evolve? It's ok for space marine players, they are always front and centre, and they can have stories for ever with nothing changing in universe, but fans of the other factions are undoubtedly going to want to see some progression of their guys. There have obviously been some in universe story evolutions, Armageddon, fall of cadia, Great rift etc, but most of the other things are in universe historical events...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 16:17:54


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Here's the thing.

Some people only really care for the lore and they want a changing, evolving and shifting timeline. They want big victories, losses and even total faction destruction. They want to see something like Tyranids perhaps win a swathe of battles and consume a faction; they want to see the Imperium fall from grace and fragment into a million different warring kingdoms etc...

Thing is tabletop side this is rarely if never reflected. If it is its often met with hostility. When people buy into an army they buy into a theme, idea and look and style. If the lore changes and suddenly Marines go from a massive arm yto "well this edition you can only get 5 marines and then use Imperial guard to represent the rest of your army. This represents the change in lore when the Geneseed plague hits and destroys almost every marine bar a few".


Gamers don't like that - just look at the shift from Old World to AoS.

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Everybody used to get on just fine with the in-universe date steadily advancing with the real world date - that's how we got the arrival of Leviathan, Tycho's injury and death, the steady build-up to the 13th Black Crusade, etc.
There was timeline and plot advancement without the 'need' for vast upheaval.

But then GW flipped the table and scrapped advancement for a couple of years, in favour of cramming everything into a single in-universe year, before jumping several centuries into the future, then backpedaling again.
   
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At least 40K has a timeline - AoS they don't even use dates. It's an utter nightmare just trying to work out which story comes before another or even where the yare in the setting


Heck even the series within themselves can be a mess (Gotrek and Malaneth already has one or two short stories that are near impossible to place nicely in the timeline and he's only been in the mortal realms for a short while!

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 Tiennos wrote:
What I'm saying is that if a cliffhanger lasts for 20 years it's not a cliffhanger, it's the status quo. The throne isn't actually failing, we're just being told that it is to create some tension. That only works until you realize that this tension is completely artificial and the throne will still be failing just fine in 20 more years. Seeing the doomsday clock at 5 seconds to midnight is much less impressive when the clock is broken.

Unless the writers decide to take a leap and resolve that plot point one way or another, it's barely relevant.


Exactly before the story with the throne felt perpetual but they have changed it, moved it on quite far and stated that the throne is on a knifes edge. Where as before it was more oooooooooh it’s being going for 10k years I hope it doesn’t stop working, to state the reliance humans place on it. But now it either is going to fail soon unless the fix it. GW can’t leave it like that for long especially if they advance the universe again.

I suppose another way to look at it was for a long time the emperor and the throne were part of the setting of the universe and we looked at people that loved in that universe. Now the emperor and the throne have been thrust front and center as main characters
   
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Well the mistake is hinting at huge galaxy-changing events in a setting that can't really deal with these. The goal is to make the stories feel more important but how well does that work when you know that it won't actually get anywhere? Who seriously expects any meaningful change to the status quo? What are the odds that GW will press the reset button and turn 40k into 42k or something?

Focusing on smaller scale events is the best solution. You can have the necrons purge a planet or two, you can feed a sector to the tyranids, you can have a whole space marines chapter get slaughtered by an ork waaagh... all of that leaves a million other toys to play with. In the end what makes a story feel important is how much you can get people invested into it. People don't need to know the entire universe is in danger to care.
   
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But in the grand scheme of things losing a planet in the Imperium means nothing. They lose more worlds through administrative errors; Navigators Guild tiffs and spats and through general mismanagement. Heck lore states that they basically forgot about the Tau world for generations.


In the end I think one has to agree to disagree when it comes to story direction. GW has made a choice to make changes in the lore and advance things. I think you either have to get on board with their vision or agree its not your vision. Plus GW has already got loads of stories of smaller victories and losses and battles and characters

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