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2020/09/16 21:30:53
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
On the assumption that the CORE keyword and associated restrictions of certain abilities to CORE units only is going to be rolled out over all codexes as they are updated, i'd be intrested to hear what everyone thinks would be/should be the CORE elements of your respective faction army lists:
since i only really have Admech, i'll start their with them:
Troops: well, both types of Skitarii are a given. The battle servitors as well, Breacher and Destroyer....which is basically our entire troops selection anyway.
Elites: if termies are CORE, then we can assume at least some types of Elite infantry should be. the choices for Admech the Secutarii (personally, not likely, as forge world), the Sicarians (possible, but im not sure they'd benefit much) or the Electro priests (given how popular they are, i'd say most likely). Another option would be some new elite footsoldiers to help shift the new Codex, though i doubt it (i'd really like a "arc rifeman" type unit, though, that'd just be cool)
Fast attack: well, we haven;t a known example of a CORE fast attack choice, but given they said that "some" vehicles are core, we might make a baseless assumption that things like bikes might be CORE. Now, the closest equivlent the admech have is the robo-cav, but i dont think they'd get CORE. if anything, i think it might be the Ironstriders and the Dragoons, since they options of the same base kit, and the "original" fast attack options for the Admech. I doubt the Pteraxii are not gonna be CORE, either,
Heavy Support: this is really the intresting one, isnt it? what sort of units are considered CORE heavy support choices? my gut makes me think that SM Devastators are/should be CORE, but admech dont really have a equivalent option. The Dunecrawler is right out becuase we know SM tanks are not CORE, and the Kastellen Dakabots are not likely either. i think we may simply not have any CORE Heavy support options.
so, what are your thoughts on the CORE units of your own factions?
edit: accidently quoted myself when editing, silly of me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 21:33:41
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2020/09/16 21:39:01
Subject: Re:[specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
I play Marines so I'm going to take a guess here, rewind the clock and go back to the dawn of 8th edition and Marine codex 8.0. remember when Marines only got chapter tactics on their infantry bikes and dreads? thats because GW considers those three unit types to be the "core" of Marine lists. so I expect core units will be the infantry bikes and dreadnoughts.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/09/16 22:00:36
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
I'm with Brian on walkers being considered the Core vehicle units - that, and maybe certain Guard tanks like Chimeras or Leman Russes.
Eldar, I'm thinking Aspect Warriors for sure but I'd be intrigued to see if Wraith units are Core too. I sure hope so, because Wraiths needing Seer attention is super-fluffy.
Daemons almost seem too obvious, because pretty much every god has infantry (obviously Core), fancy-schmancy cavalry and supporting units (probably still Core), big monsters (obviously not), and buff characters (obviously not). When you boil each god's options down to their function, there's really not that much deviation between them, just in their effectiveness.
Tau should be interesting, the smaller battlesuits could go one way or the other.
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2020/09/16 22:05:39
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
I suspect that "core" will vary from army to army. dreadnoughts might be core to marines, but that doesn't mean sentinals will be classed as core for guard. just for example.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/09/16 22:08:41
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
Every SORORITAS unit except for the Exorcist or the characters I expect to be core.
And then maybe some of the characters, like the simulacrum, too?
None of the non-SORORITAS from the Sob Codex, though.
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2020/09/16 22:18:20
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
For Chaos, this feels like a place where Marks could come into play; Maybe Lords and Princes inspire those with the same Marks. It doesn't quite gel that Lord Blooddeath Dogshank's exhortations of MURDER THEM RIGHT IN THE BLOOD inspire Klaxesh of the Fondled Thigh to greater feats of precison duelling.
Maybe some subfactions, like Black Legion or Word Bearers, get looser restrictions on this, or that this is an advantage to having your buffer HQs stay Undivided. Maybe Cult Marines are considered Core or not depending on whether or not your subfaction can take them as Troops.
Almost Certainly Not:
Vehicles
Daemon engines(That's what Discolords are for)
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2020/09/17 04:56:23
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
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2020/09/17 05:05:32
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
CEO Kasen wrote: For Chaos, this feels like a place where Marks could come into play; Maybe Lords and Princes inspire those with the same Marks. It doesn't quite gel that Lord Blooddeath Dogshank's exhortations of MURDER THEM RIGHT IN THE BLOOD inspire Klaxesh of the Fondled Thigh to greater feats of precison duelling.
Maybe some subfactions, like Black Legion or Word Bearers, get looser restrictions on this, or that this is an advantage to having your buffer HQs stay Undivided. Maybe Cult Marines are considered Core or not depending on whether or not your subfaction can take them as Troops.
I'm skeptical of cultists, just because they've spent so much effort hacking them out of almost every possible benefit for being in the army list. Legion traits, a lot of strats, etc.
The benefit to them being NOT core is also that they can finally drop the point cost back down to where should be.
I'm not entirely sold on things 'unlocking' core. That feels like a step away from their keyword system (its too easy to make that really muddy), and what happens when the 'unlocking model' dies? Do unrelated commanders get to buff them as they've been made core? That doesn't seem to fit.
I can see something _similar_ to core happen with marks (which is what the mark keyword should have done in the first place). Basically a Khorne lord has a special buff that effects other Khorne <legion> models, separate from whatever he may or may not give to Core <legion> models. That keeps non-core models separate while allowing them to benefit from someone appropriate.
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2020/09/17 05:28:06
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
I’m guessing most if not all non-character infantry.
Vehicles which are at least a couple of:
Iconic
Walkers
Super fast
Super slow
Only sort of a vehicle
Already mediocre.
SM Dreads are an iconic Walker.
TFC are slow, only sort of a vehicle, and sort of mediocre.
War walkers, wraithguard.
Penitent engines
Landspeeders
Kans and Dreads
Sentinels
Support weapons
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2020/09/17 08:17:52
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
For my Harlequins, I would guess Troopes and maybe bikes/transports. Which basically is the whole noncharacter army because there really isn't much there.
For Guard it's a little more complicated, but at the very least Infantry Squads/Scions (Conscripts might actually be left out), and then Veterans, Command Squads, Special Weapon Squads for Elites, in Fast Attack I'd say perhaps Sentinels and Hellhounds. In Heavy Heavy Weapons Squads and Russes. Although things might be switched up as well. Not that we have much in the way of Auras, but still.
Dolnikan wrote: For my Harlequins, I would guess Troopes and maybe bikes/transports. Which basically is the whole noncharacter army because there really isn't much there.
For Guard it's a little more complicated, but at the very least Infantry Squads/Scions (Conscripts might actually be left out), and then Veterans, Command Squads, Special Weapon Squads for Elites, in Fast Attack I'd say perhaps Sentinels and Hellhounds. In Heavy Heavy Weapons Squads and Russes. Although things might be switched up as well. Not that we have much in the way of Auras, but still.
With less powerful auras we may see more of them. GW does love to recycle an idea that works for one out to everyone.
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2020/09/17 08:29:06
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
IMHO only the troops and the most iconic units will get CORE. Also, the amount of CORE units in the army will be somewhat proportional to the total amount of available datasheets. Smaller factions will have less CORE options.
So for my armies it would look like this:
Tyranids:
Termagants Hormagaunts Warriors Genestealers Gargoyles Raveners Carnifici Not sure about rippers
Sisters:
Sisters Celestials (Yes, sisters will suffer a lot from this change)
Thousand Sons:
Rubrics Tzangoors Scarab Occults
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 08:30:35
2020/09/17 08:45:14
Subject: Re:[specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
BrianDavion wrote: I play Marines so I'm going to take a guess here, rewind the clock and go back to the dawn of 8th edition and Marine codex 8.0. remember when Marines only got chapter tactics on their infantry bikes and dreads? thats because GW considers those three unit types to be the "core" of Marine lists. so I expect core units will be the infantry bikes and dreadnoughts.
That's actually a pretty interesting observation, especially because the same is in place for CSM.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
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2020/09/17 08:55:00
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
They put something out about not being able to have you units hang back with a character and retain buffs. So even though they are infantry I wouldn’t have expected a devestator squad to be core. More support.
GW want you to get your units moving forward and capture objectives and engage in melees
So o think that will be the logic and I think there will be a lot of people complaining about units that don’t have the core word.
Of course in your SM supplements you will have things like raven wing and deathwing that will have their own buff auras so will be an interesting mix. Especially in the DA case when all. Characters are part of the deathwing (except maybe the raven wing??)
2020/09/17 09:08:34
Subject: Re:[specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
BrianDavion wrote: I play Marines so I'm going to take a guess here, rewind the clock and go back to the dawn of 8th edition and Marine codex 8.0. remember when Marines only got chapter tactics on their infantry bikes and dreads? thats because GW considers those three unit types to be the "core" of Marine lists. so I expect core units will be the infantry bikes and dreadnoughts.
That's actually a pretty interesting observation, especially because the same is in place for CSM.
Yeah, you actually saw it with a lot of the original codices, and even when custodes got a codex GW returned to it (in fairness with custodes they where proably terrified of 6++ land raiders or something) so with some armies GW clearly has an idea that certin types of units should be the ones that make up the core of the army
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/09/17 09:26:17
Subject: Re:[specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
as far as I know the "auras" are:
Morale: Commissars summary execution
WL trait Draconian Disciplinarian
Mordian WL Iron Disciplin
Color Sergeant kell
Command squad regimental standard
Movement Tallarn WL trait Swift attacker
WL trait Implacable Determination
rerolls: WL trait old grudges
Yarick
Master of ordnance
Harker
more attacks: Ministorum Priest
Straken
So when I look at this I would say:
Infantry squads, Conscripts, Special weapons teams, heavy weapons teams should definitly be core, as the sources of the morale buffs, movement buffs as well as # of attack buffs are explicitly meant for them in the lore (especially the commissar aura should definitly work on conscripts). I think CC, PC and command squad should not be core, as they are commanding.
I'm not completely sure with the scions. On the one hand they are trained together with the commissars etc. in the schola progenium, on the other hand lore wise they usually don't need additional inspiration or encouragement to do their job.
On the vehicle side: if they want to stick closely to the lore Chimeras should definitly be core, as they seem to make up the bulk of the motor pool. Maybe also sentinels and the normal Russ. And unless it is reworded, the Master of ordnance would be pretty pointless if Wyverns, Manticors and Basilisks would not be core, so those also.
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2020/09/17 09:50:25
Subject: Re:[specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
BrianDavion wrote: I play Marines so I'm going to take a guess here, rewind the clock and go back to the dawn of 8th edition and Marine codex 8.0. remember when Marines only got chapter tactics on their infantry bikes and dreads? thats because GW considers those three unit types to be the "core" of Marine lists. so I expect core units will be the infantry bikes and dreadnoughts.
That's actually a pretty interesting observation, especially because the same is in place for CSM.
Yeah, you actually saw it with a lot of the original codices, and even when custodes got a codex GW returned to it (in fairness with custodes they where proably terrified of 6++ land raiders or something) so with some armies GW clearly has an idea that certin types of units should be the ones that make up the core of the army
It would lend credence aswell , to the theory that SM2.0 with the expansion of the traits system into vehicles on top of doctrines were an expermiment terribly gone wrong.
Considering that neither SoB nor PA later on jumped on that band wagon.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/17 11:02:27
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
BrianDavion wrote: I play Marines so I'm going to take a guess here, rewind the clock and go back to the dawn of 8th edition and Marine codex 8.0. remember when Marines only got chapter tactics on their infantry bikes and dreads? thats because GW considers those three unit types to be the "core" of Marine lists. so I expect core units will be the infantry bikes and dreadnoughts.
That's actually a pretty interesting observation, especially because the same is in place for CSM.
Yeah, you actually saw it with a lot of the original codices, and even when custodes got a codex GW returned to it (in fairness with custodes they where proably terrified of 6++ land raiders or something) so with some armies GW clearly has an idea that certin types of units should be the ones that make up the core of the army
It would lend credence aswell , to the theory that SM2.0 with the expansion of the traits system into vehicles on top of doctrines were an expermiment terribly gone wrong.
Considering that neither SoB nor PA later on jumped on that band wagon.
extending "chapter tactics" to vehicles was first done to eldar and Imperial Guard. I don't anyone ever felt that marine chapter tactics being applied to a predator was horriably broken. the Altioc "chapter tactic" applying to their fliers on the other hand....
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/09/17 11:48:05
Subject: Re:[specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
BrianDavion wrote: I play Marines so I'm going to take a guess here, rewind the clock and go back to the dawn of 8th edition and Marine codex 8.0. remember when Marines only got chapter tactics on their infantry bikes and dreads? thats because GW considers those three unit types to be the "core" of Marine lists. so I expect core units will be the infantry bikes and dreadnoughts.
That's actually a pretty interesting observation, especially because the same is in place for CSM.
Yeah, you actually saw it with a lot of the original codices, and even when custodes got a codex GW returned to it (in fairness with custodes they where proably terrified of 6++ land raiders or something) so with some armies GW clearly has an idea that certin types of units should be the ones that make up the core of the army
It would lend credence aswell , to the theory that SM2.0 with the expansion of the traits system into vehicles on top of doctrines were an expermiment terribly gone wrong.
Considering that neither SoB nor PA later on jumped on that band wagon.
Do sisters vehicles not now get order benefits?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
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2020/09/17 11:52:54
Subject: Re:[specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
BrianDavion wrote: I play Marines so I'm going to take a guess here, rewind the clock and go back to the dawn of 8th edition and Marine codex 8.0. remember when Marines only got chapter tactics on their infantry bikes and dreads? thats because GW considers those three unit types to be the "core" of Marine lists. so I expect core units will be the infantry bikes and dreadnoughts.
That's actually a pretty interesting observation, especially because the same is in place for CSM.
Yeah, you actually saw it with a lot of the original codices, and even when custodes got a codex GW returned to it (in fairness with custodes they where proably terrified of 6++ land raiders or something) so with some armies GW clearly has an idea that certin types of units should be the ones that make up the core of the army
It would lend credence aswell , to the theory that SM2.0 with the expansion of the traits system into vehicles on top of doctrines were an expermiment terribly gone wrong.
Considering that neither SoB nor PA later on jumped on that band wagon.
Do sisters vehicles not now get order benefits?
they do. perhaps he's thinking "super doctrines" for some odd reason?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/09/17 12:45:37
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
It would be a good way for CSM if they connected CORE to marks and/or legions. They could also disconnect it from Troops. I mean, GW tried since 6th edition to make Cult units Elites, in 6th and 7th they were only allowed as troops if they had the same marks as the warlord, in Traitor legions CSM got special rules to basically be pretty close to Plague Marines/ Berzerkers and so on, in 8th edition they tried to make Noise Marines and Berzerkers elites even for World Eaters/ EC but luckily that backfired and they had to adjust.
Maybe they'll try again, make them elites but allow for WE and EC to make their Cult units CORE at least. That way there's a place for CSM and Cult units in the legions.
Also iconic units: Raptors for Nightlords, Daemon engines and Havocs for Iron Warriors (Oblits, too? Could be too much), Cultists only for Alpha Legion (but they could benefit from Apostles in every legion), Possessed for Word Bearers, Chosen for Black Legion. If they're cool Daemon units can be CORE in Word Bearers armies, that would be pretty awesome.
2020/09/17 12:51:07
Subject: Re:[specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
BrianDavion wrote: I play Marines so I'm going to take a guess here, rewind the clock and go back to the dawn of 8th edition and Marine codex 8.0. remember when Marines only got chapter tactics on their infantry bikes and dreads? thats because GW considers those three unit types to be the "core" of Marine lists. so I expect core units will be the infantry bikes and dreadnoughts.
That's actually a pretty interesting observation, especially because the same is in place for CSM.
Yeah, you actually saw it with a lot of the original codices, and even when custodes got a codex GW returned to it (in fairness with custodes they where proably terrified of 6++ land raiders or something) so with some armies GW clearly has an idea that certin types of units should be the ones that make up the core of the army
It would lend credence aswell , to the theory that SM2.0 with the expansion of the traits system into vehicles on top of doctrines were an expermiment terribly gone wrong.
Considering that neither SoB nor PA later on jumped on that band wagon.
Do sisters vehicles not now get order benefits?
they do. perhaps he's thinking "super doctrines" for some odd reason?
I meant more not to the same extent as the SM traits were.
F.e. the IG codex did early on cover vehicles, but more often with a seperate trait which only applied to vehicles, or by having a general trait that applied to both, and whilest that was far from perfect cough catachans cough, it was better then the certainly more excessive traits of sm 2.0
I guess i should've written that it was an experiment in regards to how many traits and faction specific rules apply to all units in an army that went wrong, which would've been more accurate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote: It would be a good way for CSM if they connected CORE to marks and/or legions. They could also disconnect it from Troops. I mean, GW tried since 6th edition to make Cult units Elites, in 6th and 7th they were only allowed as troops if they had the same marks as the warlord, in Traitor legions CSM got special rules to basically be pretty close to Plague Marines/ Berzerkers and so on, in 8th edition they tried to make Noise Marines and Berzerkers elites even for World Eaters/ EC but luckily that backfired and they had to adjust.
Maybe they'll try again, make them elites but allow for WE and EC to make their Cult units CORE at least. That way there's a place for CSM and Cult units in the legions.
Also iconic units: Raptors for Nightlords, Daemon engines and Havocs for Iron Warriors (Oblits, too? Could be too much), Cultists only for Alpha Legion (but they could benefit from Apostles in every legion), Possessed for Word Bearers, Chosen for Black Legion. If they're cool Daemon units can be CORE in Word Bearers armies, that would be pretty awesome.
It would allow for more thematic builds something most CSM players want since, well 3.5, or indeed the Legion supplement if they came into the hobby later on.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 12:52:45
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/17 13:05:59
Subject: [specuation] Core units for non marine armies?
For AdMech:
-Skitarii of all flavors(Serberys, Pteraxii, Vanguard, Rangers, Sicarian) PLUS Sydonian Dragoons, Ironstrider Ballistarii, and Onager Dunecrawlers.
That would leave the Skorpius and Archaeopters out while giving the units that are supposed to be 'iconic' for a Skitarii force a bit of new life.
-Electropriests(both types)
-Kataphron and maybe Kastellans.
I put Kataphron but I'm hoping that they'll add the 'Mindlock' rule to them, making it so they get a bit better with a Techpriest within a certain distance of them.