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EDIT: Profiles have been moved to the following link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aUFw2a5WOVXSoyVeZYS_Q9NvcIuadHHklumTlMYd4-A/edit?usp=sharing

I'm sorry dude but he's far to OP, he has abilities for all occasions and no weaknesses.

If you are homebrewing something then a good rule of thumb is to start with a baseline similar character - In this case you could use Shrike as he seems to be similar in terms of gear and some rules. Then take away a couple of things and add a couple of things and see what you have got.

Your's has more S than marine standard and a 2+ save with a jump pack plus super good weapons that play with invulnerable saves.

Regains W and reduces damage!

Rerolls charges, charge and fall back and charge and advance.......

Hes super fast, manoeuvrable and durable - choose one of these aspects and give him a single power to represent it, not every power that exists.

 WisdomLS wrote:
I'm sorry dude but he's far to OP

What if I removed his wound regeneration and damage reduction ability? Still OP?

His weapons are based on the melee weapon of Astral Claws-era Huron.

I agree he seems very overpowered. I’d also suggest starting with an existing character and for everything you add, you remove something to keep it fairly balanced.

At present there isn’t a direct comparison for you to go with. AFAIK Shrike is the only jump pack Primaris character, and you’ve gone with Jump pack and Gravis. Perhaps consider one or the other, then use the gravis Captain or Shrike as your start point.

If possible use rules that already exist in the game to achieve the effect you want because that is easier to gauge the points value and also you know it works in game. Have a look at existing names characters, especially captains and chapter masters and use those as a guide to how many bonuses/special weapons/special rules they have when compared to generic ones. I’d suggest you don’t exceed those. And for home brew characters it’s usually better to err on the !side of underpowered than overpowered.

An approach that might work, is to start off with an existing character (gravis captain/shrike etc) then give it one of the battle honours and a weapon enhancement from the crusade rules.

Good luck!

What if I was to edit Adamas' profile in the following ways; would he still be OP then, or more tolerable?

- remove his ability to heal wounds and reduce damage
- nerf his agility so that he can't charge and all back
- nerf his warlord trait to revive on 4+ instead of 3+
- nerf his Diving Charge to a 5+
EDIT: - as much as I am hesitant to, nerf his Boseman Claws from AP-5 to AP-4

You should start by examining why you've built what is effectively a flying Adeptus Custodes for a Marine chapter, then bolted on special rules from at least three separate codices.

Sterling191 wrote:
You should start by examining why you've built what is effectively a flying Adeptus Custodes for a Marine chapter, then bolted on special rules from at least three separate codices.

Funny you mention that. I was looking at the Biker-Custodes Smash Captain earlier, and I was thoroughly impressed. Shame it's Interceptor Lance is only AP-3 though, but I suppose it gets the job done.

NeoAigaion wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
You should start by examining why you've built what is effectively a flying Adeptus Custodes for a Marine chapter, then bolted on special rules from at least three separate codices.

Funny you mention that. I was looking at the Biker-Custodes Smash Captain earlier, and I was thoroughly impressed. Shame it's Interceptor Lance is only AP-3 though, but I suppose it gets the job done.

That statement was not meant to be aspirational.

I can see what you're going for, but there's too much built into this guy to reasonably work with. I've taken what you started with and re-jigged a few things to give you what I think is a fairer profile to work with while still giving him the sense of being a big character.

Chapter Tactics: Stalwart (wounds of 1-2 always fail) and Warded (+5 FNP against mortal wounds)

[Adamas, Supreme Commander of the Star Panthers]
M10" WS2+ BS2+ S4 T5 W6 A6 LD10 SV2+

Weapons
- Boseman Claws: Melee, S+1, AP-3, D2, enemy INFANTRY models must reduce their invulnerable saves by 1 when making saves against this weapon, you can re-roll failed wound rolls

Abilities
- Angels of Death, Teleport Strike (Teleport Strike pretty much replaces the jump infantry equivalent as far as I remember, so this isn't too outlandish)
- Supreme Commander
- Crushing Charge (Roll a D6 for each model in base contact when this model completes a charge move, for each 6+ that unit takes 1 mortal wound)
- Iron Halo (4++ save)
- Aerodynamax Engines (once per turn, Whenever this model makes an advance, move, charge move or fall back action, increase the distance moved my D6 inches)

Warlord Trait
- Indomitable Spirit (Whenever this model makes an armor or FNP roll, increase the result by 1 (A natural 1 will always fail)

Faction Keywords: IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, STAR PANTHERS
Keywords: CHARACTER, INFANTRY, CHAPTER MASTER, JUMP PACK, FLY, PRIMARIS, MK X GRAVIS, ADAMAS

As for points for this guy, you're not looking at anything cheap by any standards. I'd probably set at about 180-200pts as a start figure and tweak from there.

Be that as it may Sterling191, I'm nonetheless still working on toning down Adamas. I'm debating further edits to his profile:
EDIT: Tristanleo, I saw your edits just as I edited this post. I like what I see and will definitely consider it.

- nerfing the claws to AP-4 (down from AP-5)

- removing the claws ability to re-roll on invulnerable saves (I can't recall Vibranium from the MCU piercing a forcefield of any kind)

- nerfing the claws to match the profile of a Deathwatch Xenophase Blade

- removing his ability to heal wounds and reduce damage

- removing his ability to heal wounds but keeping the damage reduction

- replace his Gravis Armour with Artificer Armour

- nerf his warlord trait to revive on a 4+ (down from 3+)

- nerf his Diving Charge ability to 5+ (down from 4+) or 6 (like the Crushing Charge of an Inceptor)

AP4 is the equivalent of a Meltagun. On anything that isnt packing a 2+ or an Invuln, that's a no save event.

The Xenophase blade is a STR;User, AP3, D1 weapon. It'll likely get a +1 STR from the power sword buff, but combined with your S5 base profile thats still a net result of swinging at S6. That's absurdly powerful.

What you've built is a character that can go toe to toe with Guilliman, is a better force multiplier than he is, and is as maneuverable as a Custodian Bike Captain. Unless you plan on paying 400 points for him, you need to re-work him from the ground up as something else.

Jesus you basically made Loyalist Huron obsolete. That's a pure Marty Stu if I've ever seen one in a long time and I made a joke character on that too.

@OP, I'd suggest that you try to consider
1) why you're making the character? If the point is most mechanical power, all you're going to do is alienate friends. If you want to show the winningest game, use existing mechanics. If you're making it to represent a character, then

2) what attributes are essential to the design? All space marine masters including bland vanilla ones in the codex represented by a small upgrade are the best of the best of the posthuman best (being better than captains). For instance, do you really need +1 strength for how punchy he because he's hulkingly strong by marine standards, is or is his str still within the range of 4 despite being stronger than an average marine (in the highly abstracted stat lines)? Same goes with, like, all of those rules.

NeoAigaion wrote:
I have a concept chapter named the STAR PANTHERS. I also have a named character for it. I'm just wondering if he'd be considered OP or not. FYI I've never been good with estimating points so that will be absent.

Chapter Tactics: Stalwart (wounds of 1-2 always fail) and Warded (+5 FNP against mortal wounds)

[Adamas, Supreme Commander of the Star Panthers]
M10" WS2+ BS2+ S5 T5 W7 A6 LD10 SV2+

Weapons
- Boseman Claws: Melee, S+1, AP-5, D2, enemy must re-roll successful invulnerable saves, you can re-roll failed wound rolls (guess who these are inspired by )

Abilities
- Angels of Death, Teleport Strike (Teleport Strike is part of their lore; they have access to a fair few teleportarium devices)
- Supreme Commander (Chapter Master ability)
- Diving Charge (from Shrike)
- Iron Halo (4++ save, I was thinking about a 3++ save but it seems 9th edition is nerfing that hard!)
- Aerodynamax Engines (re-roll failed charge rolls, can charge and fall back in the same turn, can charge and advance in the same turn)
- Self-Repair Framework (regain 1 lost wound at the start of your turn, reduce all damage taken by 1 (to a minimum of 1))

Warlord Trait
- Indomitable Spirit (first time slain roll a 3+ and he comes back to life with 1 wound)

Faction Keywords: IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, STAR PANTHERS
Keywords: CHARACTER, INFANTRY, CHAPTER MASTER, JUMP PACK, FLY, PRIMARIS, MK X GRAVIS, ADAMAS

What legion is he part of? You've chosen some pretty undesirable chapter tactics, if you chose an undesirable legion then you can have this guy pull up an overall underperforming army.

Captain in Gravis Armour 115

+5 M and FLY 50

+1 S, A and Sv 40

Boseman Claws 0

Supreme Commander should be changed to "Chapter Master: You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made by models in friendly STAR PANTHERS units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model." 40

Diving Charge should be "Diving Charge: After this model finishes a charge move, you can select one enemy unit within 1" of it and roll one D6; on a 4+ that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound." 5

Aerodynamax Engines 20

Self-Repair Framework 35

Warlord Trait 10

305ish pts for the original suggestion. I would develop 3 WL traits for your chapter or just pick one of your legion's WL traits instead of giving him a custom one. Remove the bonus S, Sv, Diving Charge, Aerodynamax Engines and Self-Repair Framework and give him a cost of 200 assuming you pick UM or IF successors or 220 if you pick WS or BA successors and he won't come across like a total meme.

I think Tristanleo and Spiralingcadaver hit my points for me.

You generally want your homebrew units to feel *different* from existing units but not *better* than existing units. Choose 2 or 3 unique things about this guy that you really want to see represented through tabletop mechanics, then use the fewest special rules possible to represent that.

You gave him a higher base strength than a normal marine. What in his fluff says that's so much stronger than a normal marine that it warrants a strength boost? Why would he win an arm wrestling contest against every other primaris marine?

You gave him a lightning claw that boosts his strength further (so a wolf claw basically) that also weakens invul saves. What is it about this claw that makes you feel it shouldn't be represented by a normal lightning claw?

You gave him Aerodynamix Engines. What is it about his jet pack that makes him so much more mobile than an interceptor? What makes him more agile than Dante?

You gave him the ability to heal (and come back to life) in the middle of the battle. What makes his ability to heal up different from another interceptor? What makes him as good at coming back to life as Roboute?

Identify which of those things are actually essential to the concept you're trying to convey on the tabletop. If one of them doesn't seem essential, drop it and congratulate yourself on finding a reason to lower his points. And at the end of the draft, ask yourself, "Does every other chapter master wish he were this guy?" And if the answer is yes, nerf him some more. If you could ignore chapter keywords and include any of the other named marine characters instead of this guy, would you? If the answer is a clear, "No," then nerf him again.

Changes have been made. See my first post. Hopefully he isn't as OP now.

Changelog:
Stats
- removed Gravis Armour and subsequently increased Movement to 12" (same movement as a Suppressor Squad)
- decreased Attacks from 7 to 6 (now in line with Shrike)

Weapons
- removed his weapon's ability to mess with invulnerable saves (to my knowledge, Vibranium in the MCU nor comics has ever pierced forcefields of any kind)
- decreased the weapon's AP from AP-5 to AP-3 (enemies having to roll a 6 to save provides some challenge)

Abilities and Warlord Trait
- removed ability to regain lost wounds (Adamas is inspired by Black Panther, and T'challa's Vibranium suit never had such an ability)
- nerfed his mobility somewhat (he can only advance and charge now)
- nerfed his charge ability (now it's exactly the same as an Inceptor Squad)
- changed his Warlord Trait to one from the base rulebook (The Imperium's Sword, which takes care of rerolling failed charges)

PL 8 160ish pts for the updated one. Have you decided on who their progenitor legion is? Killing your darlings can be hard but I like the new design a lot more, good luck if you ever get to test him in game.

 vict0988 wrote:
Have you decided on who their progenitor legion is?

I was thinking of keeping it deliberately unknown. I like to envision that the Star Panthers have the tech-savviness of the Iron Hands, the tactical know-how of the Raven Guard, and the increased humanity of the Salamanders. These are traits that the chapter has; I'm well aware that mixing gene-seed is forbidden.

I'm also aware that those three were the loyalist legions who miraculously survived the Drop Site Massacre.

Hungry for Battle and Stealthy actually sound thematically-appropriate chapter tactics for a chapter named after a big feline predator.

Update: I did a few battle tests using the Vassal app with the 40k module. Adamas performed well, if I do say so myself.

So are you intending to aim for a cost range somewhere north of 400pts, or...

Maethbalnane wrote:
So are you intending to aim for a cost range somewhere north of 400pts, or...

or what? I was hoping that the character wouldn't cost so much with the nerfs I introduced.

However maybe it's a bit too early to be designing him for 9th edition. Next month the Space Marine 9th edition Codex comes out, and with the Indomitus set and its changes, I'm seeing some tempting things. That Relic Shield looks appealing for instance. I wonder which is better; this new relic shield, or "reduce all damage inflicted by 1".

That's exactly it, though. You're still looking around greedily for newer, shinier 'toys' that you can give to your Marty Stu that will make it stronger, rather than contemplating what is an appropriate power level, and then what abilities would fit within that design space.

And yes, you've 'nerfed' it down from where it was initially. But that was competing against Primarchs and coming out on top. A 'nerf' from that position doesn't really say much about the resultant power level.

As others keep telling you. Look at any other chapter master unique character. Why does yours do more then all the others?

The nerfs you have introduced still don't bring it in line with anything else.

NeoAigaion wrote:
EDIT: Profile updated!

Star Panthers Chapter Tactics: Hungry for Battle and Stealthy (see Codex: Space Marines)

[Adamas, Supreme Commander of the Star Panthers]
M12" WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A6 LD10 SV2+

Weapons
- Boseman Claws: Melee, S+1, AP-3, D2, you can re-roll failed wound rolls

Abilities
- Angels of Death, Teleport Strike
- Chapter Master (see Codex: Space Marines)
- Crushing Charge (from Inceptors, see Codex: Space Marines)
- Iron Halo (4++ save)
- Aerodynamax Jets (can charge and advance in the same turn)
- Kinetic Dampeners (reduce all damage taken by 1, to a minimum of 1)

Warlord Trait
- The Imperium's Sword (see Codex: Space Marines)

Faction Keywords: IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, STAR PANTHERS
Keywords: CHARACTER, INFANTRY, CHAPTER MASTER, JUMP PACK, FLY, PRIMARIS, ADAMAS

I think you're pretty close to something reasonable, personally. Looking at the stats of Calgar, Mephiston (a mobile primaris beatstick), and Dante, your statline seems to be in the right ballpark. Offensively, you're just slightly less lethal than Dante. Defensively, you're right there with Dante except that you have the Kinetic Dampeners (-1 damage). Right now, your unique things include:

* Crushing Charge
* Aerodynamax Jets
* Kinetic Dampeners
* The claws.

I feel like ditching one or two of those things would make people a lot more comfortable against this guy if for no other reason than it shrinks the list of deviations from a normal chapter master that they have to memorize. Crushing Charge is a rule tied to gravis armor. As your keywords and Toughness as well as your previous comment all indicate you're no longer picturing this guy in gravis armor, I suggest ditching this rule.

To my mind, Kinetic Dampeners and Boseman Claws are both clear nods to T'Challa while the Aerodynamax Jets just kind of feel like an add on. They also "double dip" on charge bonuses with your chapter tactics. Every character that wants to be in melee wants to charge after advancing. Do you feel that the jets are essential to Adamas's representation on the tabletop? If not, I suggest dropping the jets (but keeping a conventional jumppack and movement stat). That would leave you with comparable stats to Dante. You'd have a bit less offense than him but a solid improvement on defense from the Kinetic Dampeners. You'd have two pieces of wargear nodding to Black Panther and one of the best generic marine warlord traits.

After ditching the jets and crushing charge, I'd price this guy the same as Dante (175) and then tweak him from there.

Changelog:

- removed Aerodynamax Jets (Hungry for Battle and the Warlord trait Imperium's Sword still grants decent mobility)
- removed Crushing Charge (as Wyldhunt said, they're tied to Gravis Armour which Adamas does not have)
- removed Teleport Strike (it seems to no longer thematically-fit the Star Panthers in my opinion) and replaced it with Jump Pack Assault

Side note: Would making the claws AP-4 be a bit too much, thus should I keep them AP-3?

NeoAigaion wrote:

Side note: Would making the claws AP-4 be a bit too much, thus should I keep them AP-3?

Well, being AP-3 and Strength +1 already makes them an improved version of Lightning and Wolf Claws. 40k is full of extra special versions of weapons that have better profiles because reasons, but you have to ask yourself if you really want part of your fluff to be that your guy has a weapon that puts some of the most powerful weapons in the imperium to shame. How much better are his claws than normal lightning claws, and why? Are they really as good at penetrating armor as a meltagun? The galaxy is a big place, and you can totally find a fluff excuse for having better-than-average weapons, but the more powerful your weapon, the more you have to wonder why no one is replicating the tech or waging a war to steal the claw from him. An extra point of strength, AP, or Damage represents the use of exotic materials, rare levels of genius craftsmanship, or a nod to a history of performance that is noteworthy even among the sea of bloodshed that is the 41st millenium. Your claws have all three of these things.


Mechanically, going from AP-3 to AP-4 probably wouldn't break your character (I'd probably add 15 or 20 points to the price tag), but it might make your opponent roll their eyes.
"He has a lightning claw, right? So my phoenix lord's 2+ save goes down to a 4+."
"Oh, no. He has special lightning claws that are AP-3."
"Ah... So a 5+."
"Oh wait. I decided they were even more special than that. So you get a 6+."
"...K."
"And did I mention they're Damage 2? So he only needs half as many wounds to kill you."

Personally (and this is just me, not an attack on yourself or others), I feel a bit cringe if I end up giving a special character a straight up better version of an existing weapon. Being okay with giving your unique characters generic weapons is classy. Just watch your friends' faces when you tell them your SC is equipped with normal wargear. See them mentally adding a monocle to the face of the gentleman of good taste before them.

Partly this is because I really prefer special characters to be different rather than better, and unique weapons especially tend to just be more killy versions of their GW counterparts.

Nobody brings Dante because he's a wet noodle in combat compared to a Smash Captain and his chapter master ability doesn't work on hit rolls of 3 against -1 to hit enemies. I've been assuming +1S is going to be part of the profile of all claws going forward, it'd be pretty sad if they were left out AFAIK there are very few units that would ever take claws previously, maybe WS Vets because their super doctrine can take them to D2.

As far as the character being OP you have to consider that his chapter tactic is pretty sub-par, I'm kind of assuming T'Challa has to go and save all his stupid rhino riding cowboy friends and idiots using their blasters primarilly as quarterstaves or spears. It's like with the Nihilakh Dynasty special character he's just a joke because he doesn't do anything, he has one special rule that costs an inordinate amount of pts to build into a list and a special weapon that isn't better than a warscythe, not to mention no synergy with his sub-faction, a weakness it seems Adamas shares.

1 point of AP is far from worth 20 pts, 5 is more than enough. How many models in the game have a 2+ Sv and no back-up invul? Most likely you're looking at a 4++, going from 2 AP to 5 AP might be worth 20 pts. I know Phoenix Lords kind of suck at the moment but I don't think that's a reason to make every custom character suck just as much, it's okay if OP's custom character is slightly better than a Smash Captain IMO, nobody is taking a jump Captain with a D1 weapon, no dedicated melee character should have D1, especially not in a world where Smash Captains will be D4 going forward.

Fair points on the claws. 15 or 20 points to go from ap-3 to ap-4 is probably too many. Much smaller than that and it's a small enough increase to the overall pricetag to maybe not worry about for now. If you start him in the ballpark of 180 points, you can raise or lower his points based on performance.

I was originally going to give him a 3++ save, but with the recent change to Storm Shields, that no longer seems to be a possibility. Although a +1 to saving throws could be something I could work in somehow.

I was also considering giving Adamas a 5+ FNP save, and also changing his Kinetic Dampeners to "reduce all damage suffered by half".

Would 2+/3++/5+++ be a bit much?

Would 2+(with +1)/4++/5+++ be better?

The idea is not for Adamas to survive the full brunt of a Dual Turbo-Laser Destructor point-blank to the face, but to survive significant punishment from those on his own level.

EDIT: As for the claws, AP-4 was considered to represent how Vibranium in the MCU can seemingly cut through almost anything. Even someone with a 2+ save would be weary - that was the whole idea. I removed the interaction with invulnerable saves since, after consideration and feedback from other users, such an ability may have been overboard.

I think the best comparison to look at for the Boseman claws would be the Night Lords relic The claws of the black hunt.

The Claws of the Black Hunt are vicious hooked power talons possessed by the Night Lords, and have spilt the blood of thousands of victims since their creation in the Soul Forges. They are only worn by those who are the master of the Black Hunt, a vicious ritual that precedes the greatest of Night Lords' invasions, and have been so encrusted with gore they are almost black. This is seen by some as a clear sign of a gory blessing from destructive gods, and the crackling field is so powerful it can burn cloth at a yard's distance. Even when the Night Lord wielding the Claws of the Black Hunt swipes the air near a foe, the victim's armour and flesh part, as if slashed open by a fierce and invisible beast.

Statwise, these are S+1, AP-3, Damage D3 claws.

Having your chapter masters claws as S+1, AP-3 Damage 2 puts him pretty much in line with these ones and in a very comfortable spot for picking and choosing targets with the guaranteed damage characteristic.

I have a google document with Adamas' latest profile. Also added another Star Panthers character.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aUFw2a5WOVXSoyVeZYS_Q9NvcIuadHHklumTlMYd4-A/edit?usp=sharing

Feedback will continue to be welcomed.