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Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Which slots does your codex skimp and splurge on?

For example, Marines have a lot of good elites, and few good Fast Attack choices. Its very easy to find four different Elites I want to include. Its hard to find even 3 different FA I want to include.

What are your Armies like?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Well, not all codices are balanced in terms of the quantity and quality of Elite and FA slots.
In view of the actual discussion, Necrons have quite useful choice in the Elite and FA department, notably Wraiths, Scarabs and Tomb Blades on one side, and Lychguard and Praetorians on the other.

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admech: and elite skitarii choice, unless you go forge world.

our default elites are either the sciarin sevitors which come in stabby and sneaky flavours (though both are conventionally throught to be sub-par), and the electro-priests, who come in stabby and shocky flavours. but in the regular codex, we dont really have a "conventional" elite infantry choice, something equivalent to the 1st company veterans, or the IG veterans/stormtroopers, etc. Forge would do have the secutarii which fill the gap nicely, but thier not in the regular codex or any of the PA books (though we got quite a few nice units in PA: engine war. jet pack troops, a tank, APC, plane AND cavalry? yhea, we did pretty good out of that).

its also worth noting that while you might only be able to name 3 FA choices for marines that you'd play, the Admech codex only has two....period. both versions of the ironstrider. PA have us flying infanty and the robo-cav, which added some nice options, but still, we dont really have more than about 7 datasheets in any category (and thats elites, counting forge world)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 06:49:40


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 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not all codices are balanced in terms of the quantity and quality of Elite and FA slots.
In view of the actual discussion, Necrons have quite useful choice in the Elite and FA department, notably Wraiths, Scarabs and Tomb Blades on one side, and Lychguard and Praetorians on the other.


That's what I was wondering. If you were making a list with the Rule of 1 instead of the Rule of 3 (So obviously exempting Troops) which slots will you have a harder time finding something to fill than finding something to cut? Now some lists just have more datasheets so lets make it a fair comparison. How many sheets do you want, and how many are left? You just listed two Necron Sheets, how many FA sheets do they have? 2 out of how many are good? And not counting FW. Not that FW doesn't count but it's not widespread and frequently aimed for these holes when it wasn't a giant monster machine or a cosmetic resculpt.

For example in Marines, I've got 9 FA sheets, Only 1 is currently good (Inceptors). After the MM changes and a standalone kit a few more MAY be good.

Move Reivers to FA and make Grapnel+Chutes the same as Jump Packs (in price and effect), and they could be good there too.

But right now, there's no way I can find three different FA choices I want to use out of 9.

I've got about 17 HS choices 6 or 7 I could easily field, 2 or 3 would be a nice points fill on the borderline.

I've got about 27 Elite sheets. Just doing a quick count, not checking it twice. And most of them are likely where the flavor of the army is coming from so most of them can be taken if they fit in your theme.

Reivers would probably switch to good if both Grapnel+Chute=Jump Pack in cost and effect along with a move to FA. But they're really not right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
xerxeskingofking wrote:


its also worth noting that while you might only be able to name 3 FA choices for marines that you'd play, the Admech codex only has two....period.


I can only name 1, but I did add the out of X to the question as you were writing this because I agree context matters too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 07:02:41


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





0 and all.

no that isn't a joke, welcome to the CSM dex.

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Not Online!!! wrote:

no that isn't a joke, welcome to the CSM dex.


I didn't think it was. I was just looking through a couple codexes and noticed FA was often the smallest non-troop section and the suckiest. Figured I'd ask other people who play other armies if they had the same experience. It seems like the good FA when into the Elite section because they were more Elite than they were FA. Or Something.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in es
Masculine Male Wych





One of the "fastest" factions of the game, and I have 6 FA options.

- 5 of them locked behind a subfaction, just one open to all the army
- 3 of them are beasts, I'm not really sure what to tell about them, birds are fine I guess.

Reavers and Scourges are cool I guess, with their problems.

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NE Ohio, USA

Well, the armies I currently have handy to play are all Marine types (SW, DA, & all Dreads).
So in theory, Codex wise I'm quite good in the FA slot.
My actual armies though:
DA - I only run 1 Jump Pack Assault Squad.
SW - I run 2 jump squads & there's 3 speeders (all magnetized).
The Dreads - hmm, not so much.... Sure, I could take some sort of FA. But then it wouldn't be all Dreads....

I'm currently building a small GSC force. So I've got a Ridge Runner & two squads of Jackals on the desk.
   
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Port Carmine

 Denegaar wrote:
One of the "fastest" factions of the game, and I have 6 FA options.

- 5 of them locked behind a subfaction, just one open to all the army
- 3 of them are beasts, I'm not really sure what to tell about them, birds are fine I guess.

Reavers and Scourges are cool I guess, with their problems.


Agree. The Fast Attack section of the fast attack faction, is massively underwhelming:

Kabal
- None

Wych Cult
- Hellions (pretty bad)
- Reaver Jetbikes (very mediocre)

Coven
- None

Blades For Hire
- Scourges (expensive glass cannon, without the cannon)

Beast Packs
- Clawed Fiends (meh)
- Khymerae (poor)
- Razorwing Flocks (kind of ok....maybe)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 08:12:56


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Coven of the Screaming Statues

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I'm thinking GW put too many FA units in the Elite slot because they're good even if they are fast.

How many of your borderline Elite units become somewhat good if they're in the FA slot?

If they're in the FA slot with a minor tweak?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Breton wrote:
Which slots does your codex skimp and splurge on?
The new sisters:
- Troops: one unit, almost always 5 models bare with occasional special weapons
- Fast: two units, the first bodies to carry four deepstriking melta or flame pistols (and decent enough at it), the other a mechanised scout unit that can't scout while mechanised
- Heavy: four units, a big shooty missile predator type thing, two variants on fragile close combat dreadnoughts, and heavy bolter/multimelta infantry
- Elites: all the units. Twelve in all. A mix of aura givers, assault units, and redundant units.
- HQs: two, one good/economic but immobile, the other making up the numbers

If the dominions could still scout in their vehicles i'd say the sisters would go 2 for 2 with their fast attack. On foot not so much.
   
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Port Carmine

Breton wrote:
I'm thinking GW put too many FA units in the Elite slot because they're good even if they are fast.

How many of your borderline Elite units become somewhat good if they're in the FA slot?

If they're in the FA slot with a minor tweak?


None, I would say.

Our Elites consist of The Court of the Archon, Incubi, Mandrakes, Grotesques, and Beastmasters. Of those, only Beastmasters are fast enough to be FA candidates, but they are arguably the worst unit in the codex.

The Drukhari codex is lacking in Heavy Support Options:

Kabal - Ravager
Wych Cult - None
Covens - Talos & Cronos

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/19 09:31:25


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

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A.T. wrote:
Breton wrote:
Which slots does your codex skimp and splurge on?
The new sisters:
- Troops: one unit, almost always 5 models bare with occasional special weapons
- Fast: two units, the first bodies to carry four deepstriking melta or flame pistols (and decent enough at it), the other a mechanised scout unit that can't scout while mechanised
- Heavy: four units, a big shooty missile predator type thing, two variants on fragile close combat dreadnoughts, and heavy bolter/multimelta infantry
- Elites: all the units. Twelve in all. A mix of aura givers, assault units, and redundant units.
- HQs: two, one good/economic but immobile, the other making up the numbers

If the dominions could still scout in their vehicles i'd say the sisters would go 2 for 2 with their fast attack. On foot not so much.

Dominions might be better again in a meta with mass 2 wound marines, if only because they make a better target for Blessed Bolts.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




FA is just bikes, jump troops and occasionally light vehicles.

In *game* terms, it should probably be where you get your deep strike/infiltrate and any unit with movement above about 8". But that ship sailed many editions ago.
   
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Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Breton wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

no that isn't a joke, welcome to the CSM dex.


I didn't think it was. I was just looking through a couple codexes and noticed FA was often the smallest non-troop section and the suckiest. Figured I'd ask other people who play other armies if they had the same experience. It seems like the good FA when into the Elite section because they were more Elite than they were FA. Or Something.


there are no fast CSM elits though, so no, Good FA entering elites is a distinclty SM phenomenon.

Overall i guess we can't really complain about chaos spawn, for it's price, it's what it is and on average does what it should, even if a bit slow.
The rest of the section either relies on specific subfactions and combos, like literally any other CSM dex choice does, because feth you for wanting a unit working without psy, subfaction, stratagem combination.
Bikers f.e. at the very least need if they want to melee Khorne, icon, and RC or a psyker. If shooty some support char and slaanesh, but there are other units which take the strat for double shooting making shooty bikers a bit of a waste.
Raptors, without Nightlords are either 3 x plasma in 5 mobile dudes, stuck at 1W, there's an argument to be made for purge for full rerolls, but ehh, to expensive, and if you want to use them as the intended role it's khorne nightlords with strat and HQ support... (khorne beeing etremely unfluffy for nightlords anyways so think about that what you want)
Warp talons, same story, but atleast daemons and usefull ability, either nightlords or any faction that can make good use of legion daemons. still for what they do way to overcosted.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Death Guard has 3 FA choices and they're all good (Drone, Spawn, Hauler).
Where we lack is the heavy support section, there's basically only the PBC that is strong. And the Defiler, but mine isn't fully painted yet.

On the other hand my renegade CSM (which is made up of models I had to throw out of DG with 8th edition) the Heavy support slot is pretty bloated with Oblits, Havocs, Rapiers and Vindicator.
   
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I play BA and very fast lists. 0 dedicated transports or FA choices though. All the good infantry units are elite and even the invictors are elites. I can have 75% of my army charge turn 1 yet my FA choices are too slow to keep up with my elites and characters.

I am still waiting for my Indomitus boxes so I can get some outriders and eradicators but until then my lists will continue to be 90% HQs and elites with the minimum amount of troops.
   
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IG: can't really complain. Hellhounds, Scout- and armored Sentinels are all useful. Depending on if they move to legends I personally think Tauros Venator, flamer Tauros Assault cars, Salamander Scout tanks and Rough riders are all useable. Not powerful, but useable.

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Interceptors with their sudo fly are okey. This is the only GK FA I ever tried out.

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Italy

With SW I only use TWC and not even everytime. Which is a shame because they're basically the main reason why I started SW

With orks I have Kustom Boosta Blasta, Shokkjump Dragsta, Megatrakk Scrapjet and Deff Kopta that are all good. Stormboyz and Warbikes not so, but they still have some use. I haven't played those two units since ages though. For orks Fast Attack it's the most crowded section in the codex, along with Heavy Support.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 10:48:57


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Breton wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, not all codices are balanced in terms of the quantity and quality of Elite and FA slots.
In view of the actual discussion, Necrons have quite useful choice in the Elite and FA department, notably Wraiths, Scarabs and Tomb Blades on one side, and Lychguard and Praetorians on the other.


That's what I was wondering. If you were making a list with the Rule of 1 instead of the Rule of 3 (So obviously exempting Troops) which slots will you have a harder time finding something to fill than finding something to cut? Now some lists just have more datasheets so lets make it a fair comparison. How many sheets do you want, and how many are left? You just listed two Necron Sheets, how many FA sheets do they have? 2 out of how many are good? And not counting FW. Not that FW doesn't count but it's not widespread and frequently aimed for these holes when it wasn't a giant monster machine or a cosmetic resculpt.

For example in Marines, I've got 9 FA sheets, Only 1 is currently good (Inceptors). After the MM changes and a standalone kit a few more MAY be good.

Move Reivers to FA and make Grapnel+Chutes the same as Jump Packs (in price and effect), and they could be good there too.

But right now, there's no way I can find three different FA choices I want to use out of 9.

I've got about 17 HS choices 6 or 7 I could easily field, 2 or 3 would be a nice points fill on the borderline.

I've got about 27 Elite sheets. Just doing a quick count, not checking it twice. And most of them are likely where the flavor of the army is coming from so most of them can be taken if they fit in your theme.

Reivers would probably switch to good if both Grapnel+Chute=Jump Pack in cost and effect along with a move to FA. But they're really not right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
xerxeskingofking wrote:


its also worth noting that while you might only be able to name 3 FA choices for marines that you'd play, the Admech codex only has two....period.


I can only name 1, but I did add the out of X to the question as you were writing this because I agree context matters too.


Umm Outriders are fast attack and they're pretty solid.
fast attack is proably the weaker part of the marines codex yes (honestly thats more common then not with most codices) but I'd not complain about it, especially given 9th edition is giving Marines 3 new entries to fast attack (Outriders, the ATV and the Primaris Land Speeders)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 10:57:01


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BrianDavion wrote:


Umm Outriders are fast attack and they're pretty solid.
fast attack is proably the weaker part of the marines codex yes (honestly thats more common then not with most codices) but I'd not complain about it, especially given 9th edition is giving Marines 3 new entries to fast attack (Outriders, the ATV and the Primaris Land Speeders)



Outriders aren't really out. They're the "when they get a kit they'll be good" I've been referring to. They're also 3 and only 3. I hate those units, but some of it is my 5/10 100, 1000 OCD.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:


Umm Outriders are fast attack and they're pretty solid.
fast attack is proably the weaker part of the marines codex yes (honestly thats more common then not with most codices) but I'd not complain about it, especially given 9th edition is giving Marines 3 new entries to fast attack (Outriders, the ATV and the Primaris Land Speeders)



Outriders aren't really out. They're the "when they get a kit they'll be good" I've been referring to. They're also 3 and only 3. I hate those units, but some of it is my 5/10 100, 1000 OCD.


given we've not seen a multipart kit breton I don't think they ARE getting a kit.

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Upstate, New York

I’ve not played my Eldar in 9th, but their FA slots always seemed decent.

Shining Spears and Vypers are probably the stand outs these days, but regular bikes and Hawks have generally served me well. (Spears are theoretical, I’ve not converted any personally)

If Craftworlds need to shuffle slots around, it’s the heavy support slot that needs to be unpacked a little. Although Banshees could move from elite to FA, which would help give them some space from Scorpions.

As an Ultramarine, I like to have one of every slot in my lists. Makes it feel more like the well balanced TAC force they should be. What I take depends a LOT on the theme of the list overall. I’ve generally enjoyed Land Speeders. MM back in earlier editions when they could actually pop tanks (even just the threat of that could shape the battle) but more recently TML/HB is my speeder of choice.

I will admit that FA is a lot thinner than other slots.

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BrianDavion wrote:


given we've not seen a multipart kit breton I don't think they ARE getting a kit.


We haven't actually seen any of the Indomitus Kits yet. And I expect we will see Outrider kits, but not until the starter set sales peter out.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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As someone who plays Ryza AdMech, fast is amazing for me. Dragoons are brutal in CC, Steriluzors are very good at clearing screens and killing units in cover. My personal favorite though are sulphorhounds. I put 2 units in a Rad-Saturated patrol for that sweet 3" debuff aura to support my dragoons and sicarians.
   
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Upstate, New York

Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:


given we've not seen a multipart kit breton I don't think they ARE getting a kit.


We haven't actually seen any of the Indomitus Kits yet. And I expect we will see Outrider kits, but not until the starter set sales peter out.


While not full sprue pics, we have some solid details (including official pictures) on the assault intercessors and bladeguard vets with new options. So saying we’ve not seen and Indomitus kits is not entirely accurate.

I think the outriders are fine bare-bones. If they actually get options, they can only go up from there. Even just a CC toy for the sarge will reap some pretty good rewards seeing how many attacks they put out.

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Necron player here. Fast Attack is probably the strongest role in the codex pre 2.0. We still don't know how the new codex will play out, but currently we have Destroyers, Wraiths and Tomb Blades. These are probably some of the most competitive options in the codex as it stands right now.
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Breton wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

no that isn't a joke, welcome to the CSM dex.


I didn't think it was. I was just looking through a couple codexes and noticed FA was often the smallest non-troop section and the suckiest. Figured I'd ask other people who play other armies if they had the same experience. It seems like the good FA when into the Elite section because they were more Elite than they were FA. Or Something.


there are no fast CSM elits though, so no, Good FA entering elites is a distinclty SM phenomenon.

Overall i guess we can't really complain about chaos spawn, for it's price, it's what it is and on average does what it should, even if a bit slow.
The rest of the section either relies on specific subfactions and combos, like literally any other CSM dex choice does, because feth you for wanting a unit working without psy, subfaction, stratagem combination.
Bikers f.e. at the very least need if they want to melee Khorne, icon, and RC or a psyker. If shooty some support char and slaanesh, but there are other units which take the strat for double shooting making shooty bikers a bit of a waste.
Raptors, without Nightlords are either 3 x plasma in 5 mobile dudes, stuck at 1W, there's an argument to be made for purge for full rerolls, but ehh, to expensive, and if you want to use them as the intended role it's khorne nightlords with strat and HQ support... (khorne beeing etremely unfluffy for nightlords anyways so think about that what you want)
Warp talons, same story, but atleast daemons and usefull ability, either nightlords or any faction that can make good use of legion daemons. still for what they do way to overcosted.

Once they go to 2W warp talons won't seem quite so overpriced, they'll be even better at taking objectives from enemy units and holding them, though you are correct that it will only be for Eighth Legion armies. Raptors will be in the same boat.
   
 
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