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2020/09/24 12:51:03
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Browsing on YouTube, because I should be working. And I came across the following video which I thought might be of interest. Essentially, Midwinter Minis came across a 1997 Citadel Price guide, and using an inflation calculator, worked out equivalent prices.
Now, I am not drawing conclusions here, just starting off the topic. And I think that what could be fun would be to use his spreadsheet to work out what your current army might’ve cost in 1997. No, scratch that. Spreadsheet isn’t comprehensive. Nads.
Heck the aussie from the outer circle (atleast i assume it's one, due to dialect) made a more indepth one.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/24 13:09:00
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Fasinating stuff in that some stuff has leap up stupidly, but other stuff has... Dropped?
Clearly the change from metal to plastic is in there. I can't believe guardsmen have dropped - I wonder if he was taking into account the old box was 20 and the new box is ten?
Interesting the Codex's are all net cheaper, but of course now we have to pay for suppliments, and they've outsourced their printing overseas, which used to be in the UK.
... I guess... GW... Isn't... As bad... As I... Thought?
Ugh, that sentence was hard to say.
Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder.
2020/09/24 13:18:57
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Yes, the plastic squad is cheaper than the original metal squad - but the plastic lacks a Heavy Weapon team. It does however include the Vox Caster, which was a separate model during 2nd Ed.
If anyone has a 1997 price guide, I’d be interested in completing the spreadsheet (crap as I am with a Excel, I can still enter values!) for sake of an in depth reference.
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Hmm, haven't watched the video yet, but do they take into account that several newer equivalent models are significantly more expensive than older equivalents? Take the Dunerider and Impulsor, which seem to be the new price point for more basic transports. Both kits are $75 USD compared to say $45 for a rhino/razorback or $58 for a wave serpent.
2020/09/24 13:20:24
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Sure allbeit i can't judge the mold price since it isn't in my metier:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/24 13:20:57
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Fasinating stuff in that some stuff has leap up stupidly, but other stuff has... Dropped?
Clearly the change from metal to plastic is in there. I can't believe guardsmen have dropped - I wonder if he was taking into account the old box was 20 and the new box is ten?
Interesting the Codex's are all net cheaper, but of course now we have to pay for suppliments, and they've outsourced their printing overseas, which used to be in the UK.
... I guess... GW... Isn't... As bad... As I... Thought?
Ugh, that sentence was hard to say.
As i said, it's only true if you are in the UK.
For everyone outside, there are fantasy conversions, diffrent inflation and therefore purchase power issues.
F.e. GW hiked prices constantly over here, whilest inflation has been at an all time low comparatively and PP has lowered.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/24 13:26:31
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
I think the main point that many things have only risen with inflation isn't totally unreasonable although there will always be a bit of cherrypicking.
I think though if you did the history, you'd find GW applied very little if any inflation to their range from say 1998->2010. So in real terms it became cheaper. Partly this seemed reasonable - because models were redone in plastic. So you stopped buying 3 metal guys for £5-6, and could now buy 10 plastic guys for £15 or so.
But from about 2010/2012 I feel above inflation increases became the norm. This was especially true for characters - as noted in the video. Almost every year we saw clam pack characters go up by about £1 or more - which is why they are now over £20, perhaps even £25 today.
Really though the feeling of GW costs more is because they replace the old to the new. So for example you have say the current Ork Boyz kit - released I want to say around 2008 or so, for £20 maybe, now £22.50.
If they did a new kit we all know it would be £35-40 today. And the models might be a bit bigger and Orkier (even if people love the current Boyz) - but for an aspiring Ork player who needed to grab 30-90 of them, that's going to hurt. Compare with getting 60~ GSC Acolytes.
2020/09/24 13:26:55
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
I saw this video the other day. It's heavily skewed by starting the comparison in 1997, rather than 2000 or so, because all the troops comparisons are done against metal blister packs.
40K actually was hideously expensive in the late 90s, and that's a huge part of why Warzone got traction as a 40K competitor. The release of plastic kits was a huge relief for 40K, and in some cases (eg Tacticals), the price per-model dropped by half in the switch.
Take Cadians as an example. In 1997, ten pewter Cadians cost £17, which after accounting for inflation to 2020 means the prices have dropped. However, in 2003, the plastic Cadian set released at a price of £18 for twenty models. Accounting for inflation puts the current price of the same exact sculpt at 57% higher today than it was on release.
The elephant in the room is that while inflation has driven prices upwards, wages have largely stayed static both in the US and UK, reducing the average purchasing power of a typical consumer. Not GW's fault there, but when discussing the affordability of the hobby as a whole it's relevant.
And lastly, while not strictly related to the per-model price, the number of models required to play the game has steadily crept upwards as well. Comparing the size of armies between 2nd, 5th, and 8th there's a noticeable upward trend. I was actually really surprised at the points increases in the transition to 9th, but my 2000pt army from 3rd is still only ~1500pts now. That, too, increases the perceived price of the hobby, even if the models were to stay at the same price.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 13:30:43
The switch from white metal to plastic throws the numbers off, wasn't the drive to plastic because tin prices got somewhat volatile late 90s / early 00s which made medium / longterm planning tricky
Still have the but feeling that 30 speesh marines for a tenner doesn't line up with the 75 squids or so they'd cost today, not Landraiders for 7ish (was 15ish for two if my aging grey matter recalls properly)
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
2020/09/24 13:35:47
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
catbarf wrote: I saw this video the other day. It's heavily skewed by starting the comparison in 1997, rather than 2000 or so, because all the troops comparisons are done against metal blister packs.
40K actually was hideously expensive in the late 90s, and that's a huge part of why Warzone got traction as a 40K competitor. The release of plastic kits was a huge relief for 40K, and in some cases (eg Tacticals), the price per-model dropped by half in the switch.
Take Cadians as an example. In 1997, ten pewter Cadians cost £17, which after accounting for inflation to 2020 means the prices have dropped. However, in 2003, the plastic Cadian set released at a price of £18 for twenty models. Accounting for inflation puts the current price of the same exact sculpt at 57% higher today than it was on release.
The elephant in the room is that while inflation has driven prices upwards, wages have largely stayed static both in the US and UK, reducing the average purchasing power of a typical consumer. Not GW's fault there, but when discussing the affordability of the hobby as a whole it's relevant.
And lastly, while not strictly related to the per-model price, the number of models required to play the game has steadily crept upwards as well. Comparing the size of armies between 2nd, 5th, and 8th there's a noticeable upward trend. I was actually really surprised at the points increases in the transition to 9th, but my 2000pt army from 3rd is still only ~1500pts now. That, too, increases the perceived price of the hobby, even if the models were to stay at the same price.
UK Minimum Wage will play a part in the overheads, as this graph shows.
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Its a regular claim that wages have been static in the UK and US - but while I can't speak for the US, this doesn't really make sense based on consumer behaviour.
You'd expect consumption of all sorts of hobbies, entertainments, holidays etc to be static - or even declining, and at least prior to this year, it clear wasn't. This isn't meant to lead to some "haha, millennials eating that avocado toast again" takes - but this idea we are all penniless and hard up is hard to square with that reality. Especially since I'm pretty sure housing costs have gone up above inflation, as have probably other base essentials like energy. Food has gone down, but I'm not sure that would make enough of a difference.
2020/09/24 13:44:33
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Tyel wrote: Its a regular claim that wages have been static in the UK and US - but while I can't speak for the US, this doesn't really make sense based on consumer behaviour.
You'd expect consumption of all sorts of hobbies, entertainments, holidays etc to be static - or even declining, and at least prior to this year, it clear wasn't. This isn't meant to lead to some "haha, millennials eating that avocado toast again" takes - but this idea we are all penniless and hard up is hard to square with that reality. Especially since I'm pretty sure housing costs have gone up above inflation, as have probably other base essentials like energy. Food has gone down, but I'm not sure that would make enough of a difference.
there's a difference between average consumer behaviour, which includes the statistical extremepoints, torwards a comparison that is closer to the median level.
Especially in regards to "average Purchasing power".
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/24 13:45:46
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
However, in 2003, the plastic Cadian set released at a price of £18 for twenty models. Accounting for inflation puts the current price of the same exact sculpt at 57% higher today than it was on release.
Worse, they were £15.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 13:47:43
2020/09/24 13:47:54
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
What might also be interesting is if someone good with numbers could reverse engineer the price of Big Ticket items, such as Imperial Knights using the same inflation numbers?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Yes, GW's older sculpts have largely kept up with inflation.
however, their newer sculpts have been mostly more expensive than the models they've replaced, with inflation.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/09/24 14:05:02
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
catbarf wrote: I saw this video the other day. It's heavily skewed by starting the comparison in 1997, rather than 2000 or so, because all the troops comparisons are done against metal blister packs.
Agreed. Though plastic availability was somewhat skewed.
Looking at prices from 1995 a box of metal termagants cost twice what a box of plastic gaunts did (£9 for 10 plastic gaunts) and special/heavy weapons could often cost twice as much again.
2020/09/24 14:15:47
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What might also be interesting is if someone good with numbers could reverse engineer the price of Big Ticket items, such as Imperial Knights using the same inflation numbers?
Biggest items I can think of that are pretty much unchanged from their old counterparts are the various Land Raider variants. Maybe a Baneblade/Shadowstorm, depending on when they switched over from being a Forgeworld-only thing...?
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
2020/09/24 15:20:58
Subject: Re:An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Its a regular claim that wages have been static in the UK and US - but while I can't speak for the US, this doesn't really make sense based on consumer behaviour.
You'd expect consumption of all sorts of hobbies, entertainments, holidays etc to be static - or even declining, and at least prior to this year, it clear wasn't. This isn't meant to lead to some "haha, millennials eating that avocado toast again" takes - but this idea we are all penniless and hard up is hard to square with that reality. Especially since I'm pretty sure housing costs have gone up above inflation, as have probably other base essentials like energy. Food has gone down, but I'm not sure that would make enough of a difference.
Entertainment is typically the last thing to be cut. Even in times of serious economic stress, people still spend on "fun". I worked in film and tv during and immediately after 9/11 (in the U.S.). When my FX company did not have a tv or film contract, we did work for theme and amusement parks. Even with travel shut down and the economy in the toilet, theme parks were still contracting us left and right. Ditto the major recession later in the decade when housing crashed. People want their escape whether they can really afford it or not.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2020/09/24 15:31:33
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
H.B.M.C. wrote: UK Wraithguard - £32.50
UK Howling Banshees - £32.50
OZ Wraithguard - AUD$55
OZ Howling Banshees - AUD$90
I'm sure it's just inflation...
Nah, it’s BS what it is (the prices, not your post.)
Problem is Aussies keep paying it. The Outer Circle is a great example of this; it's no secret how critical he is of GW's pricing, especially with regards to AUS, and then he whips out his brand new, 2000pt Nighthaunt army and acts surprised when GW keep cranking it up.
2020/09/24 15:50:00
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Tyel wrote: Its a regular claim that wages have been static in the UK and US - but while I can't speak for the US, this doesn't really make sense based on consumer behaviour.
You'd expect consumption of all sorts of hobbies, entertainments, holidays etc to be static - or even declining, and at least prior to this year, it clear wasn't. This isn't meant to lead to some "haha, millennials eating that avocado toast again" takes - but this idea we are all penniless and hard up is hard to square with that reality. Especially since I'm pretty sure housing costs have gone up above inflation, as have probably other base essentials like energy. Food has gone down, but I'm not sure that would make enough of a difference.
it's difficult to find a lot of numbers, but looking at america and adjusting for inflation, since 2010 at least spending on entertainment as a percentage of income for the average american has gone down 15%.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/09/24 16:24:58
Subject: An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What might also be interesting is if someone good with numbers could reverse engineer the price of Big Ticket items, such as Imperial Knights using the same inflation numbers?
Biggest items I can think of that are pretty much unchanged from their old counterparts are the various Land Raider variants. Maybe a Baneblade/Shadowstorm, depending on when they switched over from being a Forgeworld-only thing...?
I was thinking the same - Baneblade/Shadowstorm would be good comparison old & new (and perhaps vs. old Armorcast versions and what they'd cost at current inflation). Perhaps also a Warhound/Reaver titan?
Overall, I've always use the cost of a Land Raider to gauge GW's (over)pricing, especially vs. a normal tank model kit (say, by Revell). I do remember when the LR kit went up to $50, I quit buying GW models for a good bit - same thing when it went to $75.
It never ends well
2020/09/24 16:25:23
Subject: Re:An interesting video on GW, prices and inflation.
... I guess... GW... Isn't... As bad... As I... Thought?
Ugh, that sentence was hard to say.
I think a lot of people experience stagnating wages, which drives some of the perception.
The flip side to that of course is those like me that got lucky, and have been able to find higher wages. Compared to 8 years ago, I’m earning 2 and a half times as much (ish. Think I’m closer to triple). So I’ve been more insulated to GW’s prices and rises than others.]
Not intended as a humble brag.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?