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Made in de
Rough Rider with Boomstick






I'm not sure if the title is the best, but I could not do better, so a bit of context:

Before the launch of 9th there was a threat here that asked for our wishes/dreams for the new edition. Beside other things I mentioned (as a collector of IG, but unfortunatly not really player yet) that I would find it nice if - by some kind of change of rules and incentives - IG would not be seen as some kind of CP-battery and cheap chaff to add to any imperial faction anymore, just for that. It was my impression (I don't know how common this was), that this was pretty common and also let to quite some frustration for non-Imperial players that half the armies could throw in the loyal 32 for some 180 points and be done with it. And on the other hand my impression was that by piggybacking alongside Castelans, Smash Captains and the like IG often contributed "unwillingly" to some pretty broken combos. Not because the Codex itself was really that powerful but just because of the Detachment system and lack of negative consequences for just adding them.

Now you could well say I got what I wished for - in a way. With the new system Guard seems to be much less present as allies and certainly not be taken for their CP. I don't really follow the tournament scene but as far as I picked up from some discussions here they were only present sometimes at the side of Custodes that are in need of cheap bodies the most. Also "freed" from being included in what to me personally felt like every second imperial tournament list their so far bad tournament ratings seem to be a lot more descriptive of the Codex true "powerlevel" if you want to call it that way.


So my question up here for discussion is basically to those that are really active in the playing and even tournament scene: is my gut feeling correct, that IG is now more seen as itself instead of "chaff for other imperials"? Or was it never that way to begin with? What is your impression/perception of the humble Guard?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 17:39:15


~3500 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




Well, they're obviously not a CP battery any more. You pay CP to include other detachments rather than gaining CP. So... that fundamentally can't work.

Cheap chaff, I'm less certain of. Haven't personally seen many soup players even in 8th, and no idea what the handful of tournaments in 9th are doing (or if its meaningful).

Guard can do what they've always done: spam big guns.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





CP batterines no longer exist.

outside of that, Marines (proably the most common IoM army) now lose a TON by using allies so where in the past Marines took a knight as a heavy supprtoing element and guard as a CP battery they're better off not doing so now

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in de
Rough Rider with Boomstick






Of course I know that they cannot generate CP any more but cost some. Maybe I phrase it another way: Is my impression that in 8th they WERE often seen as mostly just a CP-battery to power up other imperial faction and that this is now less the case far of the mark or do you share this impression?

It just interests me, because I'm not long into the hobby and don't get around that much, so I would appreciate to have a bit more insights and points of view.

~3500 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Taking allies loses mono-Faction bonuses, for the most part, so is less often seen now.

Detachments cost CP in 9th, not generate them.

Add the two together and you have the answers to your question, OP.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

BrianDavion wrote:
CP batteries no longer exist.


I wonder how many special characters are going to have a special rule like Abaddon's The Warmaster.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!' 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 carldooley wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
CP batteries no longer exist.


I wonder how many special characters are going to have a special rule like Abaddon's The Warmaster.


I imagine quite a few, the Supreme Command Det talks about SUPREME COMMANDER - but there aren’t any yet. There’s a Tau with a special rule, but nobody has it as a keyword. I think a number of armies will get something like that. Maybe Creed, maybe Shadowsun/Farsighted or whatever his name is, maybe a Sister, maybe Inquisitors, Abbadon and so on.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





The Silent King has the Supreme Commander keyword.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 carldooley wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
CP batteries no longer exist.


I wonder how many special characters are going to have a special rule like Abaddon's The Warmaster.

so far off the top of my head we have abaddon, calgar, gulliman, the silent king, dante, pretty sure magnus and morty give extra CPs but not 100% sure on that

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Chamberlain wrote:
The Silent King has the Supreme Commander keyword.


OK before two days ago, nobody had it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
CP batteries no longer exist.


I wonder how many special characters are going to have a special rule like Abaddon's The Warmaster.

so far off the top of my head we have abaddon, calgar, gulliman, the silent king, dante, pretty sure magnus and morty give extra CPs but not 100% sure on that


Oh Bonus CPs? Calgar, Azrael, Dante all have it Calgar and Azrael give two, Dante gives 1. Logan does not. Not sure of Shrike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/13 11:05:10


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Rough Rider with Boomstick






That might be something for a separate threat, don't you think?

~3500 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

 Pyroalchi wrote:
That might be something for a separate threat, don't you think?


Why should it? CP is fundamentally different between 8th and 9th. In 8th, the loyal 32 netted you 5 additional CPs. In 9th, the Supreme Commander rule\detachment grants additional CPs as does the special abilities of various Characters and relics.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!' 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 carldooley wrote:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
That might be something for a separate threat, don't you think?


Why should it? CP is fundamentally different between 8th and 9th. In 8th, the loyal 32 netted you 5 additional CPs. In 9th, the Supreme Commander rule\detachment grants additional CPs as does the special abilities of various Characters and relics.

Technically the supreme comand detachment doesn't realy grant additional CP as it nets to zero.

The IG can be used as a way to do CP generation by the cases for using it are now super situational as it's-3 turn 1 climbing to +1 turn 5. The use cases is so edge I can't see anyone taking it but if the codex they are allied too doesn't have a regenerate CP farming WLT/relic, they do have a net positive on total CP.

   
Made in de
Rough Rider with Boomstick






Ok to put it that way: this just completely misses my intent when creating the topic. But well, carry on then

~3500 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





The guard is definitely seen more as itself than as chaff for other imperials. I haven't seen many people allying in guard detachments to get chaff units, it just doesn't seem to be worth the extra 3cp as chaff is fundamentally not as effective as it used to be.

People are using the guard as their own army, and they're not very good.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Pyroalchi wrote:
Ok to put it that way: this just completely misses my intent when creating the topic. But well, carry on then

Now you don't see it however it could become a thing, I doubt it but it will depend on secondarys and what mono codex bonuses are added to each codex.

80 points and 3 CP to get some deepsteiking infanty and a CP farmer, action monkey still seems cheap. But Right now that would cost Marines their doctrine buff 1 and doctrine buff 2.

I'd most likely see custodes are the probable matchup as yes they can deepstrike and hit like a truck, however having a 70 point model plus the CP to split the squad just to play objective monkey is a high price vrs 1 CC and 5 scions for just 10 more points.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

the_scotsman wrote:
The guard is definitely seen more as itself than as chaff for other imperials. I haven't seen many people allying in guard detachments to get chaff units, it just doesn't seem to be worth the extra 3cp as chaff is fundamentally not as effective as it used to be.

People are using the guard as their own army, and they're not very good.

Vindication!

But yeah. CP batteries don't really seem to be a 'thing' anymore. Which is nice.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Breton wrote:
 Chamberlain wrote:
The Silent King has the Supreme Commander keyword.


OK before two days ago, nobody had it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
CP batteries no longer exist.


I wonder how many special characters are going to have a special rule like Abaddon's The Warmaster.

so far off the top of my head we have abaddon, calgar, gulliman, the silent king, dante, pretty sure magnus and morty give extra CPs but not 100% sure on that


Oh Bonus CPs? Calgar, Azrael, Dante all have it Calgar and Azrael give two, Dante gives 1. Logan does not. Not sure of Shrike.


Logan doesn't but space wolves gain a CP everytime they eat an enemy character

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






I think the new thing is obsec bodies batteries..

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
 
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